Early start for sectarianism in Stoneyford
The long running campaign of sectarianism in Stoneyford is something that Slugger has covered in detail.
I’m sure many of the people directly affected had hoped the arrest and detention of Mark Harbinson would bring some respite:
The Pride of the Village Flute Band is led by loyalist Mark Harbinson, who in November 2009 was remanded in custody charged with sexually assaulting a 13-year-old girl.
Mr Harbinson has also been questioned by police in connection with an alleged sexual assault on a 15-year-old girl and a 12-year-old boy
However the band he leads, the Pride of the Village Flute Band, has again applied to march around mixed cul-de-sac estates in the village this time on the evening of St Patrick’s Day.
The Parades Commission determination also covered by the BBC permits the parade with restrictions but notes:
ADDS: Parade route added at end
4. The Commission has a number of concerns in relation to this notification. Firstly, the notification was not left with an officer of the PSNI of the rank of sergeant or above, as required by the legislation. The person leaving it at the police station did so without providing a name, an address or any contact details. Moreover, the notification does not name an organiser while the signature purporting to be that of the organiser is illegible. Considering the named marshals on the notification, the police have been unable to identify any but one. The identified marshal has stated to them that he has not been approached to act as a marshal nor has he any knowledge that this parade is taking place; although he did express a willingness to participate if approached. In addition, there is no stated purpose for this parade. The 17th March is recognised nationally and internationally as St. Patrick’s Day, a day traditionally associated with the celebration of Irish heritage and culture. The Pride of the Village Flute Band has on no occasion in the past demonstrated such affiliations and has no history of parading on this date. The question, therefore, remains unanswered as to whether or not this is a mischievous notification to parade in Stoneyford from an unrelated third party; or, indeed, whether it is a genuine notification from the Pride of the Village band.5. The Commission, in the interests of supporting the exercise of fundamental rights and freedoms; and recognising that failure to complete administrative requirements need not interfere with those rights; has decided to determine on this notification. A determination does not indicate or support the legality of this notification in its current form and failure to meet all statutory requirements for advance notice may leave those concerned open to prosecution and conviction. This is a matter for the PSNI and the Public Prosecution Service.
6. Nevertheless, the Commission feels that it has sufficient information to enable it to determine on this notification in its present form and in the light of other information, evidence and advice laid before it.
7. The Commission understands that Stoneyford has seen sectarian tension, and that the organising band has been the focus of concerns about sectarian intimidation in the village. The Commission considers that the notification of this parade can only give rise to renewed tensions in Stoneyford. As it has done previously in considering parades notified by this band, the Commission suggests to the organiser that he reflect carefully on whether his actions are in the best interests of community relations in Stoneyford; and if they are helping to further the interests of parading as a peaceful, cultural tradition.
17. Having considered all the evidence, information and advice available to it, the Commission takes the view that it is necessary to curtail part of the parade’s notified route, and it has therefore placed conditions on the parade. This decision is set against the background of continuing local community tension. It recognises the real possibility of damaging community relations should the parade proceed along the entirety of its notified route. Whilst recognising the fundamental importance of the right to freedom of assembly, the Commission finds it necessary to exercise its powers under section 8 of the Public Processions (Northern Ireland) Act 1998 to place restrictions on the parade.
A feature on Radio Ulster suggested despite the failure to comply with legislation the Parades Commission is powerless to prevent the parade and can only place restrictions on it. The only authority to outright ban it lies with the Secretary of State acting on a recommendation from the Chief Constable.
The TUV have thrown their weight behind Harbison’s mob via their local Councillor Cecil Calvert:
TUV councillor for the area Cecil Calvert last night slammed the decision as “wrong” not allowing the band to march through the two mixed housing estates.
Addition: The oft proposed route that hits every mixed cul-de-sac and misses out others (satellite version is well out of date):
View Parade – Stoneyford in a larger map
if these areas are mixed then surely those residents who wish to see the band must be allowed to have their rights.
Or is this the future for protestants in Sinn Feins united ireland, if theres a taig about the place there wont be a parade?
Harry J,
Is it normal for parades to march off a main road and around the mixed cul-de-sacs?
Perhaps if Mr. Harbinson had any manners, he wouldn´t parade around areas where people don´t want to see or hear his band.
Mark
Maybe if you lot saw your way clear to facilitating parades down main roads (garvaghy and ormeau for example) their would be no need to walk round cul-de-sacs.
Those who feel the need to march should show respect…its a no brainer. Speak to residents and try for a deal. If residents say ‘no’ then no it is. Hopefully though, residents will show some understanding too.
Mark, yes its very normal for parades to march off a main road.
Before this goes off on a thread of whataboutery and conjecture some FACTS:-
Stoneyford is a village of approximately 300 people. Its a small place. The 2 ‘cul de sacs’ effectively ARE Stoneyford. Almost all the band members live in these two cul de sacs. The majority of band members are under 16- both male and female.
Of the 300 people in Stoneyford 90%+ are Protestant.
Mark Harbinson has not been an officer or in a decision making capacity in the band for 2 years. He is not the chairman, he doesnt ‘lead’ it and it isnt his ‘mob’.
The band has had St Patricks day functions for several years, each of which had a cross community element with local catholic children being involved. This years walk was to give new members -children- a chance to learn how to parade in preparation for the band season. No uniforms or regalia was to be worn or carried. They live here. Why cant they.
Assertion that people dont want them is nothing only an assertion. Conjecture. What its actually based on never gets revealed.
Bottom line- the band has never felt they should have to explain themselves and defend themselves in depth. They are proud.
They are consistently penalised for not fighting their case.
I believe that they may be considering changing that approach for this parade.
Quincey
Do you mean they are going to actively engage and try to make their case or what?
Quincey
How many Catholic children are involved in an anti-Catholic march on St. Patricks day……..aroundabout?
Alan
>>Hopefully though, residents will show some understanding too.<<
I don’t understand, what have the residents to understand? That a bunch of bullies wish to commit a mass breach of the peace aimed at intimidating and insulting them. This is not normal!
PE
Just think what someone with real leadership qualities would do. I bet Mandela in this situation would probably say ‘let them have their parade’.
It’s unlikely that many parents of any religious persuasion will be enthused about the Pride of the Village’s focus on involving young people given the allegations against Bro Harbinson. His lack of involvement in the band (due no doubt in part to his present incarceration at Her Majesty’s pleasure) calls to mind Wyatts’ poem “They flee from me that sometime did me seek”
UlsterScotty
Lol! Never a truer word.
Alan
C’mon! Enough is enough, people want to live in peace. God forgive me but if someone comes on mouthing about human rights and civil liberties I’ll get so angry I’ll crush a grape ;¬) Let’s just say that these atavists have had their day.
How fitting that the TUV are speaking up for the electorate they are targetting.
PE
Of course I agree people largely want to live in peace. But here in NI, living in peace means sometimes putting up with things you might not alway respect or like…(on both or all sides) thats the deal with conflicting cultures. If actual threat, intimidation result then the police should act.
“Mr Harbinson has also been questioned by police in connection with an alleged sexual assault on a 15-year-old girl and a 12-year-old boy”
I guess the handlers in both sets of murder gangs preferred members who were kiddie fiddlers (allegedly) as they made good touts.
I would hope the organisers of the band would make sure Mr Harbinson has nothing to do with the band in future. If he is placed on the sex offenders register as he should be, there will be no contact between him and the organisation.
I cannot understand where these bands disappear to for most of the year. Surely it is possible for a band to be inclusive and to perform at, for example, nationalist events as well as unionists. The OOs aught to be at the forefront of uniting communities not hiding behind an orange sash.
I dont want to sound naive but I dont believe a village of 300 people spend all their time segregated, why on earth would someone exchange gossip with a neighbour one day and rush behind the sectarian divide the next. If my neighbour were of the minority community and I knew something upset them, I would cancel it rather than offend. Mind you the same can be said of nationalists, we should not be so hyper sensitive.
2 words
coat trailing
The RUC should check to see whether any youngsters in the “Pride of the Village Flute Band” have been buggered by this cretin.
alan56
Aye sure what you say makes sense in theory, but;
>>If actual threat, intimidation result then the police should act.< <
I'm not altogether sure you have been on the end of one of these intimidatory marches. They are by their very nature designed to flout supremacy and if they intend on going up the cul-de-sacs to get to the fenians(as in the past) then it is not the most enjoyable experience.
Pip
The comedy awards are another night surely.
>>I would hope the organisers of the band would make sure Mr Harbinson has nothing to do with the band in future.<<
I wonder who has the greater reputation to defend.
David Forde must be mad taking on the P&J portfolio
Alan56. Maybe David Ford reckons P&J is pointless…
Quincey,
I’ve provided numerous links in relation to Harbinson, the ‘Pride of the Village’ and sectarianism in Stoneyford.
Can you provide a single link to this cross-community ethos?
So far the only link I see from you is your willingness to parade with them in your advertised capacity as a fellow flute band member.
PE
I have witnessed dozens of these situations and you’re right, its not a pretty sight. My sentiments are voiced in the hope that accomodation can somehow be reached. Naive?
Prionsa Eoghann
The OO if it is to survive has to move into the real world. Mr Harbinson has been found guilty of assaulting a child. It will make no difference what he or the OO want. He will be banned from working with or belonging to any organisation which allows him access to children. In fact every adult member of that band and anyone working/marching with it should have up to date CRB reports.
All it needs now is for someone to tell me that child protection CRB reports are not required in the north and I will be very upset.
Quincey,
I assume you think that when the last attempt to parade these cul-de-sacs was denied, the decision to enter the fields behind the estate and march around at the back of the houses belting out ‘blood and thunder’ was an exercise in bringing a much welcomed community event to those who really wanted it?
Quincey
You must be one of Mark’s newer- and greener- disciples (relax, ‘greener’ in a non-nationalist sense of the word.)
Your demographic figures are well off the mark- indeed the band would not be seeking to march in some of the named estates were they not annoyed at the mixed religious composition of the dwellers therewithin.
I note the band reference marching to the ‘Old Pub’ in their march notification. Perhaps you’d like to revisit the history of just why that pub has lay derelict for many years now?
I recall the beacon being sold as a cross-community venture by The Leader (or Elvis, as he liked to be called on the Orange Volunteers site.)
Back then, of course, all strands of unionism lined up to defend the band and their leader.
Perhaps the most positive aspect to this latest twist in the Stoneyford saga is that, finally, all beyond the most rejectionist and bigoted strand within unionism has decided to leave these people behind.
Chris,
It does leave a big question hanging over those that support ‘Policing & Justice’ in the north though.
The parade application didn’t meet any of the criteria for a legal submission. The Parades Commission decided that was a reason towards restriction not rejection and permitted it on a shorter route.
Will the ‘Chief Constable’ recommend an outright ban? Will a British SoS agree? Would an Alliance Minster endorsed by SF be inclined to get tough on this band’s arse?
Chavs will be chavs
Mark
I think the parade application had to be considered due to a precedent set by a similar case involving a parade skirting the Short Strand some years ago.
Sinn Fein has called on the PSNI to ban the parade. Don’t know if the British SoS agrees; wouldn’t rely on Ford getting tough about anything- that’s a universal problem afflicting liberals.
Still think devolving P and J good idea on principle, though not expecting significant changes on this front.
If failure to comply with requirements, especially to the extent shown here is not a reason to refuse, then the requirements become a joke.
The TUV are wrong on this one and their support fir Torrens Knight. For these reasons, I no longer support them. I am sorely disappointed that TUV have taken it upon themselves to be a unionist version of SF. Even DUP never backed releasing murderers
if Ulster were a sick patient in intensive care, I’d switch the machine off. This place is run by a menu of thugs, sectarians and even the Alliance is emitting noisome odours now it’s got a whiff of power.
To those in NI who vote for DUP/SF , you don’t deserve peace. For those of us who are not sectarian, shame on us for not being militantly so and working hard enough where it matters. What only works in NI is not reason but might
perhaps a cross community paramilitary force was what was needed.
Marcionite
>>The TUV are wrong on this one and their support fir Torrens Knight. For these reasons, I no longer support them.< <
Bravo!
>>I am sorely disappointed that TUV have taken it upon themselves to be a unionist version of SF.<<
Eh?!?!?!?!
There is no Unionist version of SF! For all their faults overt sectarianism is not one of them.
Prionsa Eoghann
You have a short memory. Marcionite does not need the sarcasm of a snobby little nobody.
Marcionite
Well done. I agree with you too many people have taken sides, and those sides have taken lives.
prionsas- SFs sectarianism is covert. I know, I grew up with provos. All they wanted was dead prods.
pipp
>>You have a short memory. Marcionite does not need the sarcasm of a snobby little nobody.< <
Ooooooohhhhh! Away'n'bileyerheid!
Marcy
>>..SFs sectarianism is covert…< <
Give us a clue at least!
>>I know, I grew up with provos. All they wanted was dead prods.<<
*Kiddin aside* Should you be able to provide us with a smidgeon of evidence for this assertion then I’d be all ears. I simply don’t believe it!
Was any Prod prisoners to be taken at all?
Kids,
Do me a favour. Mick is busy, can you stop waving your dicks at each other. Thanks.
Prionsas – I refer you to my latter postings under the thread about the Queens visit to Eire. I bared my soul there
Prionsa Eoghann
If you want an insult to work for me. Spell it in English. Did you really think I would care enough to check.
You need to understand we are not all the same. We do not all support the same view of the world. If we did it would be a very boring world, what would you and everyone who comments on here be doing for a start.
Peace lad, sleep tight and dont let the bed bugs bite…
Prionsas- I had teachers in Omagh who recruited boys from Carrickmore and Greencastle. I was friends with them but when they told me that their duty was to help rid Ireland of Brits and THEN the Prods, I knew what theyvreally were about
SF members of my family circle in Tyrone have similar hair raising attitudes towards Protestants worthy of a slavering Serbian warlord
if u REALLY don’t believe me, read Gerry McGeoughs interview in Magill. He was a top Provo for years until recently. It’s online via one of his websites. He wants to convert Protestants to Rome as it’s Irelands only true faith. His rabid anti Protestantism is de rigeur in Tyrone republicanism.
Sorry. The fact is, prods live happily in the republic. From what I know, they generaly hold distain for the orange need to coat trail in the six.
wee buns
Stop it!
Can’t you see there is a therapy session going on………….carry on boys!
Pipp
>>If you want an insult to work for me. Spell it in English. Did you really think I would care enough to check.< <
Sorry Mark but..........Ffs Pipp you have gied the game away a wee bit, huvyeno?
Marcy
Gie us evidence that SF eat their weans and I will join yir crusade against the buggers. You tellin us about their "attitudes" and "duties" only gie the likes ae me licence to take the piss.
>>He wants to convert Protestants to Rome as it’s Irelands only true faith.<<
Stop it you are killin me! He will have to start convertin Catholics like me to Rome first………surely!
“The fact is, prods live happily in the republic. From what I know, they generaly hold distain for the orange need to coat trail in the six.”
Posted by wee buns on Mar 06, 2010 @ 12:40 AM
Are these the few that survived forced assimilation, murder and economic discrimination? The ones that were killed, forced to bring their children up as catholics or had their businesses affected by bigoted priests lived rather unhappily in the republic.
>>The ones that were killed, forced to bring their children up as catholics..<<
Was that before or after they were killed?
As some noise up has mentioned before the Irish are a quare people. Imagine being able to hide all the evidence of genocide for so long. keep digging away in those Donegal hills for the bones of the Proddy dead, if you gold I’m in fur haffers.
I often think that Orange bigots make the mistake of judging others by their own standards.
If you were capable of finishing the sentence I was referring to three seperate circumstances.
Are you denying Protestants/Unionists were murdered in the Free State after partition? Shall I give you some examples?
It’s not ‘Orange bigots’ voting in their tens of thousands for representatives with criminal records for sectarian murder. Just remember that before you tarnish an entire community. Republican hypocrisy at it’s finest.
>>Are you denying Protestants/Unionists were murdered in the Free State after partition? Shall I give you some examples?< <
Fire away ma man!
>>It’s not ‘Orange bigots’ voting in their tens of thousands for representatives with criminal records for sectarian murder.< <
I beg to differ the mainstream Unionist parties faired quite well for years with Ian Og who at the very least was guilty of incitement...... of various things. like ethnic cleansing Irish style, as in they are the same ethnicity, same culture-well the uber-Prods would adopt an alien English/Germanic culture totally alien to our Irish/Scottish origins. But they are Catholics so let's get them! We had the current co-equal first minister leading an armed invasion of Monaghan-assualting police and terrorising people. We had Davy Trimble-he of the face mask(actually accepting a nobel peace prize.......WHAT!) who was a leader of a quasi-fascist armed group..........need I go on?
>>Just remember that before you tarnish an entire community<<
I specifically mentioned Orange bigots, any Prods wishing to associate themselves with these guys share the muck, their choice.
Marcionite and british citizen, your brand of rabid anti-Irish dementia – wherein the Irish nation eats roasted British babies with boiled potatoes – is all too easily exposed as the product of a disturbed mentality by pointing out the simple fact that over 100,000 British citizens have chosen to live in Ireland.
Why would over 100,000 British citizens choose to live here if this country had even a fraction of the hatred for British people that you both have for Irish people? All I can add is that I am glad there is a border and that your demented ilk resides on the other side of it – but I do surely pity the catholic tribe up there that they have to live among your dismal ilk.
Does no one else like the irony of the Orange Order formally applying to march up a cul de sac? C’mon lads, get your comedy heads on…
Will Harbinson’s mate wee Cecil Calvert be wearing his jackboots on Paddy’s Day or will he leave that to the Stoneyford Gardai?
If they can’t march around the cul de sac(what’s the ulster-scot’s for that phrase, by the way-a sleekit dander roon’ yon bendy road?), then they intend to march to nearby Aldergrove airport to receive a fly-past from an incoming Aer Lingus jet…
Prionsa
Whilst I dont give a stuff what you think of me, right up to and including my nationality. I do think someone who prides himself on his intellect aught to be capable of seeing both sides of an argument without resorting to insult.
Everyone
There is some lingering resentment of the English here, why deny it its verifiable. There has been some persecution of protestants, not of course as much as that of catholics in the north but it has still happened.
In todays world some people are still fighting yesterdays battles. Some are proud of their neutrality, and equally proud of killing Brits.
Get a grip boys, we are not saints, just people who had genuine grievance.
Raymonds Back: Does no one else like the irony of the Orange Order formally applying to march up a cul de sac?
It isn’t the Orange Order. It’s a local band. The only bit of local knowledge who has posted in this discussion point out that most of these band members live in these cul-de-sacs (I keep on wanting to type culs-de-sac instead…)
Mark McGregor: Is it normal for parades to march off a main road…
Yes, when it’s a band parade. The Orange Order tend to wander off somewhere, and local bands tend to do a local circuit. They all seem to sort out a shared route by the 12th. Maybe that’s what all the practice is for. Is it a point of pride for republicans not to comprehend anything of this topic?
Reader
If it is a local band, why can it not be inclusive. It needs new leadership, especially with the leader locked up for child molesting. I think social services need to be keeping a close eye on this little band.