“It is hard not to feel a certain sense of pity for Sinn Fein over this issue..”
Sinn Féin President, Gerry Adams, MP, MLA, has reprised his role as spokesman for the UK government by announcing a further four year funding of the Irish Language Broadcast Fund ahead of any official statement. Just as he did in 2008. It’s still a reserved matter. ‘The Blog’ had the ‘scoop’ this time. The level of funding, £3million per year, is the same as the previous announcement in 2008 – which means it’s a decrease in real terms – and lower than the initially announced funding of £12million over three years. Apparently, there is also £8million for unspecified capital projects in west Belfast. Which is nice for the International Representative of that region. ANYhoo… This time the “fig-leave” to cover the absence of an Irish Language Act is accompanied by £5million [over the same 4 years? - Ed] for a new Ulster-Scots Language Broadcast Fund – with Northern Ireland Culture Minister, Nelson McCausland, promising “further announcements in the coming weeks about the fund”. Not that you’ll find those additional details in some of the media coverage…Note: It’s likely than any comments made here will be lost in the move to the new host.
Well if the comments are being lost, may I just get this off my chest and offer my opinion that I hope these hateful bastards rot in fucking Hell with their sectarian tit for tat bollocks over their dead and made up languages….dementia care wards are closing at Holywell hospital (and at other hospitals) leaving the already vulnerable even more vulnerable while these finance sucking scumbags play their silly games.
I was shocked at this announcement today – last week we had closing of libraries in working class localities proposed. Whilst wishing no disrespect to people interested in U Scots and the Irish language how on earth can the gov justify such large sums?
Surely people will unite across the board to say it is wrong to use scarce resources in this way?
you can ask a GB liberal to fund anything. I’m with the above comments. A disgusting waste of money. Irish (political language spoken by IRA supporters, let’s face it, when did you hear it spoken in NI other than by provo lover) and Ulster Scots(not a language but largely the phoenetic representation of poorly spoken English. The other bit is made up. I suppose the Loyalists want a language of their own, after all, English not being seen as British enough)
we get the politicians we deserve. However, the indignant minority of significant number who snootily say “I’m above NI politics” could do well to come off their cloud and realise how above NI politics u r when you have to drive your elderly parents from Omagh to Derry when Barbara Brown stripped the Tyrone County down to the bone.
Voting for shower is equally as bad as not voting against them
But sheep go baa, prods vote DUP, taigs vote SF ad nauseum ad infinitum
Failte go Shite
Fair fa Ye Bollocks
One reason why we need a lot of new unionist MLAs is that many of the present lot are prepared to let libraries close. At the same time they are happy to exalt, as a Living National Treasure, some bucolic jester who writes verse of the following species.
Ye ca me Wullie John McNair,
An if ye houl yer tongue,
A’ll tell ye hoo an when an where
A moved a load o dung.
If the votaries of Ulster Scots want to be taken seriously they must provide us with a lexicon, a standard orthogaphy, and a literature. If the votaries of Irish want to be taken seriously they must begin to work at their own literature. What we’re getting at the minute is a mixture of kilted village idiots on the one hand and deedle-dee-dee linguistics on the other.
It’s a funny world. Real scholars read and write books, wasters get big grants, and hospital wards close.
iluvni,
I know what you mean, that’s how I feel about those whose central concern is orange parades.
sucks don’t it!
I completely agree, percy.
The sooner that SF and the SDLP, step up the the mark, and pressurise the British to live up to their obligations on the language issue the better, SF are not fooling anyone. They dropped the ball on this and they have watched as the unionist kicked it out of the park. The record of the SDLP as far as the language is concerned is not even worth condemnation
Coll Ciotach:in present dire economic circumstances, how can you defend so much money for U.Scots and Irish language? And what is the money going to be used for? And how many are going to benefit?
How ironic that the British taxpayers are going to pay for this indulgence and not us in NI!
Having slogged my way through another awful Baker post I only have this to say:
I would be inclined to allocate money for the Irish language. Ulster-Scots however is perhaps a bridge too far.
No problem justfying spending the money on the promotion and development of the Irish language- a sizable amount of people want it spent in this way. I am quite prepared to allow others to decide the nitty gritty on how it is best spent – but I personally would expect full recognition of, and therefore facilities etc provided for, the usage of gaelic in all aspect of public services and interfaces. The entire population would benefit
I agree with most on this subject. If you vote a bunch of nutters into office whose only political interest in running the country is Irish, Ulster Scots and contentious Orange parades what do you expect?
Does anyone know how many republican/nationalist MLA’s can speak Irish and how many Unionist MLA’s or Orangemen speak Ulster Scots?
If the Northern Ireland Electorate continue to vote and put these incompetent MLA candidates into office they have only themselves to blame.
Coll C,
How, exactly, would I benefit from “gaelic in all aspects of public services and interfaces”?
What’s this – a side deal? Who would have thought… I’d say there’s a few left to come yet. What else was left “unresolved” from the GFA and SA?
I find it revealing that so many contributors find it so hard to swallow money to promote the ancient language of the country where they live. I don’t disagree that at times Irish language is hijacked for political motives at times but so is everything else so don’t start gettin all hot under the collar. The language is not just for republicans, Catholics, nationalists, even Irish people. Ask the good loyal prods who go to their classes throughout the north- are they seeking to take the medicne from sick children? Allow the classrooms to fill to bursting? Wise up. Some of these comments show us up to be increibly narrow and parochial here. Money spent on anything can be criticized
N.Ireland boasts the worst Parkinsons disease care in Europe; and we have to put up with these f*** wits posturing over what are effectively dead languages.
Pete Baker
Perhaps if you turned your posts towards some of the issues that mattered to people, rather than engaging in point scoring against Gerry Adams and his tribe, you might actually contribute to the betterment of society.
Mick
I hope that the new slugger is going to have more of an open door policy vis a vis headline bloggers; and that it is going to incorporate more media, arts and culture, whilst allowing those of us that belive inpositive change to be heard. Too many of those that currently blog here are laden down with baggage, that is both negative and reactionary. The C4 link up gives Slugger the chance to become a forum for change, rather than just being a pedestal for the voices of the past. It would be nice if somebody were to open a thread to discuss this.
N.Ireland’s politicians are not dealing with the issues that matter to people on the ground. They get away with it because they hide under their various flags of convenience. They are incapable of governing for anybody; it is time that they were exposed for what they are … a bunch of useless …….
David Crookes wrote: ‘If the votaries of Irish want to be taken seriously they must begin to work at their own literature…’
Your arguments for intellectual rigour would carry more weight if they were not made from a position of complete ignorance. Work on Irish literature began some time ago – circa the 5th century AD. You won’t get many takers for dismissing modern and contemporary writers such as Flann O’Brien, Liam Ó Flaithearta, Micheál Ó Conghaile, Louis de Paor et al as ‘kilted village idiots’. And maybe you can explain in what sense the prominent Continental scholars who have published works on Irish language and literature are guilty of ‘diddley-dee linguistics’.
Such a pitiful level of commentary from an intellectual poseur.
Which of the many links did “It is hard not to feel a certain sense of pity for Sinn Fein over this issue..” come from?
One wonders how many of the supporters of the Irish language are taxpayers? Just a thought.
12 million over 3 years is not a major ammount of the government spent. less than £4 per taxpayer per year. and I as a taxpayer would rather see it go to languages than to the War in Iraq. Almost every penny of this money will be spent here. It will generate jobs and circulate some government funds.
The health sector gets such a large budget that it is silly to try to paint this as taking peoples hospital beds from under them. The spending of the health of the education budgets are matters for those departments and are for a different thread.
I hear and speak Irish every day with my wife and some friends none of us are shiners and all taxpayers (most higher end). Within a generation it is predicted that the world will loose 90% of it’s languages and despite what those here would have you believe Irish is not dead. In fact it is in a rude state of health in 2010.
Attitudes to Scots Gallic are extremely negative in Scotland and it continues in Sharp decline. In Whales attitudes to Welsh are very positive and it has come back from the brink and is spoken widely. Here we are in between but the language has regained a bit of forward momentum in South Armagh, Mid Tyrone and Derry. I for one think this is important and think it deserves the money.
As for Ulster Scots. After filling in some DARD forms and my GP patient survey in this “language” I can only conclude it is an expensive joke but this is the mandate that the Unionist people voted for and thus the price of peace.
I mean can anyone here honestly tell me that they have herd anyone speak as written below, (complements of the DARD website)
2 Giein wittins tae bodies lukkin tendin
Wittins anent oor ontaks an tendin wull be aisie ingaed, siccar an richtent. It’ll be pit tae
yer han in oor apen oaffises an on oor wabsteid. This wittins wull haud effeirin rinnins
anent awnin wi’s, takkin in a phoane nummer, oaffis backin an l-poast backin.
We’r fur seein tae mak siccar tha wittins we’r aisin is shire an strecht-forrit tha wye it’s
aisie unnèrstuid. Forbye, we’r fur makkin siccar at yer ain ontaks is clear pit forrits in oor
effeirin blauds, buiks, foarms an on oor wabsteid.
Tha yin róad we’r fur yaisin wittins anent yersel is accoardin til tha laa an daein jonick,
tha wye we’r gart dae wi tha Scowth o Wittins Ect, tha Yird-Hainin Wittins Wisins an tha
Wittins Fennin Ect.
Many thanks, Nordie Northsider (#16). When I talked about votaries of Irish I had in mind not scholars of the language but politicians who want parity of esteem for a language that they themselves are not prepared to work at. When I spoke of kilted idiots I was talking about charlatans on the Ulster Scots side. I thought my two-handed syntax made that fact clear, but I was wrong. By ‘diddle-dee-dee linguistics’ I meant the parity-of-esteem world in which clamant persons take the money and do no work. In short, I’ve been talking about clamant undiligent persons on both sides of the fence. I’m sorry that a fairly light-hearted posting from me has elicited such an earnest response from you. Let me repeat what I said in the message to which you object: real scholars read and write books. Maybe you missed that bit. Have a good day.
What the f*ck is wrong with people? I pay taxes, I haven’t shot or blown anything up, I get on with all religions and I speak Irish. Its a beautiful language, for everyone. Should we stop spending money on tradition and culture altogether? How much is spent on Iraq/Afghanistan/ID cards/govt advertising/expenses/The Olympics…and on and on. Irish deserves money spent on it, children attending Gaelschools are not second class citizens even though some people think that by learning through Irish they are. Most countries are proud of their indigenous language, and promote it gladly but no not here, the doom mongers are out in force today. An Gaeilge abú
‘dementia care wards are closing at Holywell hospital (and at other hospitals) leaving the already vulnerable even more vulnerable while these finance sucking scumbags play their silly games’
The figures talked about for the Irish language are dwarfed by the £110 milliom promised for improvements to 3 sports grounds here.
At this time it would be crazy to waste such a huge ammount of money to massage the ego’s of a few unionist MLA’s and those within the IFA.
For the foreseeable future, these types of projects should be put on hold.
Fretjumper, I hope that I live to see Irish being taught in all our schools along with Latin and English. You do well to ask about the money that we waste on Great Bores like the Olympics.
I don’t see the money thing as the main issue. We need MLAs who are committed to culture, who read books, who support the library service, and who speak languages other than English. The fact that a unionist politician once described Irish as ‘a leprechaun language’ displays a proud and wilful uncouthness as much as anything else. Thanks for you posting.
It may interest some of you to know why you never hear Irish except from shiners. Just a little anectode. My wife is a Native Irish speaker. Her mother is an Irish speaker from Kerry. Not long ago when we got engaged she moved up here from the South and it wasn’t long before we encountered problems with her surname, Ní Chinnéide. She works in a financial position and from the first week the tax office insisted in writing to her as miss Kennedy. A name she had never been revered to before. There have been many other incidents including very sharp treatment applying for a shop loyalty card. She contemplated changing her name to the english form in 2009. Sectarian prejudice are alive and well if you speak Irish here you are automatically labeled a show off and a shinner as illustrated above by Pete Baker, Illuvni, Marconite, David Crookes, GEF and BryanS.
With attitudes like that when do you expect someont to say Dia Duit in front of you?
Or even;
James Orr, David Herbison, Samuel Thomson, Sarah Leech, Hugh Porter, Meggie Whyte, Agnes Kerr etc etc…
Unfortunately “Tha Boord O Ulster Scotch” has made a hames of the whole thing and decided to ignore its own “lexicon, standard orthogaphy, and literature” and made up an entirely new language complete with confused and mixed up cultural references involving kilts, highland dancing and a curious admiration for the Anglican ascendancy.
I’d recommend John Hewitt’s collection Rhyming Weavers. Many of the works pre dated Burns and it once was a living form of the central Scots dialect in parts of the North. It only died out in North Down around the early nineteen hundreds but shadows of it live on in everyday speech-much like Irish.
But none of this has any relevance or the right to be publicly funded when basic “non discretional” services are under such huge pressure. As usual prioritising seems to be a difficult concept to express in any language here.
It seems to me that the rabid dogs have been unleashed by Pete with his post and it amounts to the same level of abuse as directed at the Roma community, which prompted Facebook to remove that page.
Describing as ‘f**kwits’, IRA supporters, hateful bastards etc those who speak Irish is completely witless, wrong and spiteful. That they have the temerity to seek a level of state support for speaking a minority indigeneous language in a country, GB, which is supposed to celebrate tolerance, multiculturalism and pluralism is to be praised – not lambasted.
I share misgivings about the role of Gerry Adams and Sinn Féin in all of this – the £20m being spent on Irish is more than is spent on the PSNI paper clip budget.
The £12m for the Broadcast Fund is necessary because the BBC refuses to provide an adequate public service for Irish speakers – half an hour a day on radio is not good enough. So the BBC gets to access this £12m to provide extra programming in Irish.
As for BryanS’s ‘query’ re tax payers, he shouldn’t be concerned. Irish speakers pay taxes too and are dismayed to see some of the funds extorted from their monthly salary going on such wasteful things as the misadventures in Iraq and Afghanistan, Peter Robinson’s (and Gerry Adams’) expenses and a whole host of other sundry items which are more less worthy of expenditure than the hospital beds and libraries which are truly deserving of support.
I think spending money on things such as the ILBF, which generate revenue and which act as further stimuli to the economy, are really worthwhile. An Irish language film supported by the ILBF was in contention to be on the shortlist for the Best Foreign Language Film at the Oscars in 2007, at the same time as Edwin Poots, then Minister for Culture, was axing the ILBF. Not since Dance Lexie Dance, if I’m not mistaken, had a film with strong NI links got so close to the red carpet on Oscar day. Due to the sharp response of the Irish language newspaper Lá, which gave SF a good kick up the arse on their failure to stop that decision at the time, the decision was reversed and Gordon Brown intervened.
Thanks to Springfield and Conchubar for their thoughtful messages. Let’s all calm down. The Hound of Ulster is not a ‘rabid dog’!
“Describing as ‘f**kwits’, IRA supporters, hateful bastards etc those who speak Irish is completely witless, wrong and spiteful.”
…..and not what was said in the first place. That description was all for Sinn Fein and the DUP ‘negotiators’…but sure you knew that.
I would also say that Irish is under pressure from another side. Its fair to expect some of those from the Union/Protestant/Loyalist traditions to fanatically drool at the mouth in utter contempt of those f*ckin fenians daring to speak anything other than the Queen’s English but more surprisingly and disappointingly a significant amount of people from the Nationalist/Republican tradition don’t much care for it either. Why is this? There are many reasons of course and I’ll suggest a few.
1 – The Sinn Féin factor – many nationalists do not agree with SF and their past actions. To see Marty or Gerry speaking Irish ignites a sense of ‘oooh we can’t be seen to be doing what they do’
2 – Apathy – Sure why Irish? Learn German, French, Spanish and you’ll be more employable.
3 – Snobbery – Its only Irish, we are now somehow better than that.
4 – Shame – After many years of being told ‘If you speak Irish you’re stupid’ people now actually believe it.
5 – Hear no Irish, see no Irish – Though slowly changing esp in Belfast, they do not hear spoken Irish in shops/bars restuarants enough.
With these in mind our (everyone’s) language needs all the help it can get, its too special to lose.
“Sectarian prejudice are alive and well if you speak Irish here you are automatically labeled a show off and a shinner as illustrated above by Pete Baker…”
I see comprehension remains sadly neglected in our education system…
Is that what you meant, iluvni? It’s hard to take any sense from your foul mouthed outburst which I highlighted in my previous post. But if you think I wronged you, I’m sorry for so doing. My own feeling is that you were completely out of order but I’m happy to see your clarification.
Marcionite’s description of Irish speakers as IRA supporters still fails the reasonableness and accuracy test. I can assure him that I’m no IRA supporter – of any stripe – and there are thousands more like me who feel the same way and we speak Irish every day.
It’s a pity that some unionists allow themselves to be led by dinosaurs such as Jim Allister and his completely backward and anti British notions.
“So, despite all the DUP assurances of Hillsborough delivering nothing for the Irish language, it now emerges that a further £20m is to be wasted on promoting Irish and its anti-British agenda.”
Of course he and Nelson McCausland, who believes wrongly that Ulster Scots is a more British language than Irish and it’s a language for unionists only, should realise that if they celebrate Irish as a British language, then every concession for Irish is actually an enhancement of Northern Ireland’s Britishness!
Absolutely feckin spot on Concubhar. But then fundies don’t usually do irony do they?
Concubhar,
No clarification was needed but it was clear you were only too happy to jump to the wrong conclusion or perhaps more accurately, the bog standard conclusion.
Sorry Pete, your name should not have been on that list. I had iluvni’s post in mind when I wrote your name down. I should have read through my post more thoroughly before uploading it.
“One wonders how many of the supporters of the Irish language are taxpayers?” asks Bryan S.
The answer would be, “All of them.”. Even schoolchildren spending their pockey money in the corner sweetie shop pay tax and this is a tax that is unavoidable unlike the ludicrously low income tax on higher earnings which even then the super-rich manage to avoid paying, along with corporation tax on their company profits, by skilful tax-dodging maneouvres so blatantly tolerated by a complacent Revenue.
If you want a target for tax-dodgers then the super-rich are a much fatter target than the unemployed but of course that might mean that you run the risk of offending them.
Those who cry that the money available for the promotion of the Irish language and Ulster-Scots would be better spent on care homes or libraries entirely miss the point that even if no money were so applied the libraries and care homes would be no better off, their budgets would not be increased. If you really care about these services then it would be best to get off your arses and organise some serious campaign action to save them.
And if you want to point to areas where public spending might be cut without affecting public welfare, then you might consider the (badly misnamed) Defence sector where billions of pounds could be usefully saved not to mention the thousands of lives that are wasted in the expenditure of its revenues.
Rory-I’d like to get off my arse and lend my support for your campaign to stop the expenditure of billions of pounds and thousands of lives in the Defence sector-where do I sign up?
With respect to the ongoing buffoonery surrounding the competing languages etc, are you arguing that spending millions of pounds funding, what at best could be described as expensive indulgences (in the current financial climate) versus allowing basic services to have their funding reduced? I don’t follow the logic. There is a (rapidly diminishing) finite pot of money available.
Any language, or cultural activity can surely only be judged as valid and relevant if it stands on it’s own two feet and doesn’t need the injection of significant public funds in order to survive. Is the amount of public money needed not inversely proportional to the “activities” natural currency? It either has that indigenous vitality and by definition relevance or it doesn’t. Perhaps the way forward is for the “enthusiasts” to put their money literally where their mouths are and match every public pound with one of their own-I would suggest that a form of PPP would possibly “encourager les autres”…..or maybe not.
my experience is personally empirical. I do not count those from REAL gaeltachts like Donegal, Kerry or the Arran Islands in my description.
In my experience, the only northerners who spoke it were doing it for political reasons. The few who do speak/learn it out of pure interest are in a small minority. Coming on here saying “I speak Irish and I don’t support SF” doesn’t prove anything. If you are such a person, I applaud you but you are in a minority. It’s like saying not all people who have Mein Kampf have Nazi sympathies but let’s face it, most do and possessing raises suspicions
To me, Irish in NI is what the IRA want. Since I hate what the IRA have done, I tend to wince against partaking in their extra curricular activities
Irish was the language of the more brutish and conservative teachers in my school. I never heard it spoken by anyone I aspired to, in fact, it was spoken only by those who repulsed me in terms of their demeanour, attitude and political outlook, which was pro IRA
besides, why would anyone want to split themselves off from the major body of the lingua Franca ie English? Surely when you learn a new language, it with the purpose to communicate with as many more people as possible?
That’s why German and Spanish are popular in night classes and why Finnish isn’t
Danny Morrison said they every word of Irish is a bullet against Britain
Now we have Marcionite comparing Irish speakers to Nazi sympathisers….I’ve heard it all. That statement from you, Marcionite, is a contender for the most ignorant posting on any thread ever.
Who’s ‘splitting themselves off’ from English? I’ll tell you one thing, any teacher who taught you that ‘splitting yourself off’ was good English deserves a kicking.
People who learn Irish are entitled to do so without having their motives impugned by those who are too ignorant or lazy to better themselves. Learning Irish doesn’t make it more difficult to learn French or Spanish, in fact it makes it easier, research has shown. It also protects against dementia…..
Danny Morrison said a lot of stuff – but I know who used that phrase initially and Danny’s not guilty. In fact, I don’t think I’m doing him an injustice by saying that he doesn’t speak Irish at all and has made no effort to do so.
Concubine
you may not agree with Marc but at least explain to those less worthy among us which part of his post you disagreed with
And he did not compare Irish speakers with Nazis. perhaps you have a problem with English?
And he did not compare Irish speakers with Nazis. perhaps you have a problem with English?
What’s not to disagree with? His assertion that Irish speakers are like Nazis? His notion that speaking Irish is ‘splitting’ oneself ‘off’ [sic] from the English language? His claim that speaking Irish means that you support the provos?
A stalagtite contains more intelligence than Marcionite’s postings on this topic….
Coming on here saying “I speak Irish and I don’t support SF” doesn’t prove anything. If you are such a person, I applaud you but you are in a minority. It’s like saying not all people who have Mein Kampf have Nazi sympathies but let’s face it, most do and possessing raises suspicions
It seems that you’re the person with a problem with English. That’s clearly a conparsion between Irish speakers and Nazi sympathisers. [Hint: the use of the word 'like' indicates a comparison is being made.]
I rest my case! Specsavers possibly?
I think you should pay a visit to a psychiatrist Bryan and maybe you can be cured of your delusions relating to the written word here and your prejudices relating to the Irish language and those who speak it, whether or not they’re taxpayers. [I assure you that we are!]
Fundamentally language is communication.
The fact pro-Gaelic people want to see it spoken in public places more will only serve to fragment society further. As much as I have a passing interest in local history, any effort made to encroach on public space and I personally move from a position indignant at the high cost and profile of such cultural symbolism to one actively against it, as it infringes on Northern Irish society’s ability to mix and get on with eachother at a practical level.
It is the language equivalent of educating Roman Catholics in a separate school environment and furthermore a hallmark of the failure of power sharing as a model of government.
I have no problem with people wanting to learn and speak the Irish language. I failed at age 5 to manage it and have never regretted it. However how should it be funded? Perhaps the GAA would be in a position to fund it.
It is a shame that so much time should be wasted by our so called politicians on red herrings like parades and the Irish language,
As for psychatrists, I have yet to meet a sane one so no thanks Con.
St etienne – ah another poster posting as a liberal. Irish doesn’t encroach on the public space in Ireland – it is part of the public space, whether you like it or not. A sizable minority speak the Irish language on a daily basis – up to 20,000 according to one estimate – and considerably more – up to 160,000 – are favourably disposed to the language.
The fact is that those who speak Irish can speak English and other languages – so being Irish doesn’t impinge the ability of people to communicate. Rather it’s an enhancement of that ability.
I hold no brief for the Catholic Church – Roman or otherwise. The failure of powersharing has nothing to do with the Irish language or religion but the failure of people to see things from the other side…..
I can see, for instance, that unionists in NI want to preserve their British sense of identity. The problem is that this identity is being limited to flag waving and adoration of the monarch – it doesn’t extend, it seems, to the upholding of the very British value of tolerance and respect for other cultures. In some instances, on this thread, when the likes of Marcionite and iluvni have engaged in nazi slurs and foulmouthed abuse, it’s gone beyond discourtesy and disrespect and into the realm of contempt.
St etienne – ah another poster posting as a liberal. Irish doesn’t encroach on the public space in Ireland – it is part of the public space, whether you like it or not. A sizable minority speak the Irish language on a daily basis – up to 20,000 according to one estimate – and considerably more – up to 160,000 – are favourably disposed to the language.
The fact is that those who speak Irish can speak English and other languages – so being Irish doesn’t impinge the ability of people to communicate. Rather it’s an enhancement of that ability.
I hold no brief for the Catholic Church – Roman or otherwise. The failure of powersharing has nothing to do with the Irish language or religion but the failure of people to see things from the other side…..
I can see, for instance, that unionists in NI want to preserve their British sense of identity. The problem is that this identity is being limited to flag waving and adoration of the monarch – it doesn’t extend, it seems, to the upholding of the very British value of tolerance and respect for other cultures. In some instances, on this thread, when the likes of Marcionite and iluvni have engaged in nazi slurs and foulmouthed abuse, it’s gone beyond discourtesy and disrespect and into the realm of contempt.