“It is hard not to feel a certain sense of pity for Sinn Fein over this issue..”
Sinn Féin President, Gerry Adams, MP, MLA, has reprised his role as spokesman for the UK government by announcing a further four year funding of the Irish Language Broadcast Fund ahead of any official statement. Just as he did in 2008. It’s still a reserved matter. ‘The Blog’ had the ‘scoop’ this time. The level of funding, £3million per year, is the same as the previous announcement in 2008 – which means it’s a decrease in real terms – and lower than the initially announced funding of £12million over three years. Apparently, there is also £8million for unspecified capital projects in west Belfast. Which is nice for the International Representative of that region. ANYhoo… This time the “fig-leave” to cover the absence of an Irish Language Act is accompanied by £5million [over the same 4 years? - Ed] for a new Ulster-Scots Language Broadcast Fund – with Northern Ireland Culture Minister, Nelson McCausland, promising “further announcements in the coming weeks about the fund”. Not that you’ll find those additional details in some of the media coverage…Note: It’s likely than any comments made here will be lost in the move to the new host.
‘The problem is that this identity is being limited to flag waving and adoration of the monarch ‘
I think you should get out more if this is high on the list of unionist peoples’ priorities. What a shallow place you inhabit.
Au contraire, it’s unionist politicians who need to get out more and find out what unionist people really want. I don’t believe in an ‘us and them’ dichotomy and find it unhelpful. However unionists are being painted into a very tight corner by their politicians as if the only things that matter are contentious parades and the likes.
There’s more to ‘unionist culture’ to that, I believe. The Irish language is part of unionist culture, for instance.
Conchubine, Did I say Irish speakers are like Nazis? I should have said that the situation is analgous to owners of Mein Kampf insofar as the partaking of an activity or possession of an artefact which is also enjoyed and possessed by those of a Nazi persuasion can by logical extension, brand most owners of said book in the same Nazi camp
this is an ANALOGY. is this more palatable then, most owners of teddy bears are children therefore if u own a teddy bear, then you more likely to be a child than otherwise.
There, Irish speakers are like Teddy bears owners.
You know, you have the similar Stalinist force of words and verbal demeanour as those I describe in my previous posting. I wonder if speakers of Irish in NI secretly hate the world and want to separate from it.
Irish speakers are like Myra Hindley…….
Irish protects against dimentia? What a load of Cork mans b*lls that statement is. Pity it doesn’t protect against murdering people at The Abercorn, La Mon, Enniskillen, etc etc and lots more etceteras.
Danny Morrison may not speak Irish but he did make that statement about words being bullets. It’s seems nowadays, every word of Irish spoken in NI is one less hospital ward, one less library, one less child being kept alive on a respirator.
BryanS,
I had a discussion here with you, where you stated that you believed the majority living south of the border would vote against re-unification. I provided you with evidence in the form of a poll carried out south of the border which stated that a vast, vast majority would vote for unification. You continued to state that my sourced opinion was bull, while your opinion backed up by the fact that it was, well your opinion, was correct and all without a shred of evidence.
You consistently show yourself to be anti-Irish, which is amusing to me, you have no reason to be really. It’s like the free P approach to gay folk getting it on; mind your business when consenting adults are having legal fun, like having sex and speaking Irish.
You’re obsessed with preventing other people pursue their interests, for no reason other than ‘I don’t like Irish’ while wailing about the waste of money.
How about a bit of fairness of approach then Bryan, and let’s see you tackle the wasted money on Unionism’s side of the fence. You fleetingly reference parades there, but in truth you don’t appear to have an axe to grind with regards to parades. In fact it’s fine and dandy for millions upon millions of pounds to be payed by 65 million taxpayers for the enjoyment of, what, at most about 300,000 people?
So in essence your point of view is Unionism gets what Unionism wants, you will battle at the keyboard long and hard to prevent any Nationalist making any suggestion as to what their taxes pay for while Nationalists will be duty bound to subsidise your community and their activities, especially if this means Nationalists funding the Orange Order to come into a Nationalist area, piss all over the place (cause of all the beer you christians drink) and assault and verbally harass the locals – for this Nationalists should pay.
In fact, according to your earlier points regarding how the poll carried out regarding reunification has been overruled by your own opinion – in fact Nationalists don’t exist!
Incidentally, that Nazi comparison was a nazi comparison. The word ‘like’ does indeed give that game away. Godwin’s Law invoked with regard to that.
I think you miss the point, Marcionite, simply packaging the Irish language in the same sentence as nazis and Mein Kampf means you lose the argument. An analogy is a form of comparison – but you know that. Or you should.
On top of that the analogy/comparison is based on a false premise – there are thousands of Sinn Féin voters who don’t have a word of Irish and there are thousands of Irish speakers who would never vote SF. The notion that you propounded that Irish speakers are IRA supporters is wrong and in another era could have had fatal consequences. Is Peadar Heffron, the Irish speaking officer of the PSNI who lost his leg to RIRA thugs, an IRA sympathiser as he is an Irish speaker? Not likely.
You merely reinforce your demented notions with your 301 post. Is there any evidence that those who bombed those venues were Irish speakers? If you have such evidence, you should put it forward. Otherwise I think you’re losing control of yourself.
If I thought that speaking one word less of Irish a day would result in one more hospital bed or one more child being kept alive or one more library, I’d be happy to speak a great deal less Irish. But the reality is that the money being spent on Irish is a pittance in comparison to the wasted billions on the misadventures in Iraq and Afghanistan, the expenses of our politicians and the huge waste in our public services.
I am very much a part of the world – and I have no intention of cutting myself off. I speak Irish and English and other languages and my knowledge of Irish complements rather than compromises my appreciation of the wide world in which I live.
I would like all children to learn Irish and Ulster Scots.
I would like all hospitals to be fully funded.
I would like the elderly to be properly cared for.
I would like people with physical or other disabilities to have the best care and opportunity to live independent lives.
Which of them should we cancel to pay for another do you think.
I think you should get out more if this is high on the list of unionist peoples’ priorities. What a shallow place you inhabit.
While you ignore sourced evidence in favour of your opinion on what them damn fenians should think, hell you don’t guess what Nationalist priorities are – you tell them what their priorities are.
I wouldn’t criticise anyone’s understanding of the other community if I were you, at least when faced with evidence they’d back off their clearly total bollocks argument, but not Bryan, even when he’s wrong he’s right.
I would like the British government to stop spending billions of pounds annually on military misadventures in foreign fields while the elderly aren’t receiving proper care, hospitals aren’t fully funded or people with physical and other disabilities are unable to live independent lives.
Just another option for your little survey….
For your information Marconite. Areas in South Armagh, Tyrone, and Derry were as real a Gaeltachtí in the early part of the century as those on the West Cost. Irish was the main community language here for much longer than most of the south. I have a Grandparent on both sides who learned Irish as a first language. One from Cullyhanna, the other from Omeath, both areas considered gaeltacht at the time of partition.
“It’s like saying not all people who have Mein Kampf have Nazi sympathies but let’s face it, most do and possessing raises suspicions”
Are you really serious with this sutff? I suspect you are taking the piss because if you went to a school where Irish was taught you must know people who speak the language and the reality of the irish speaking community in the North. Mein Kampf is a book about the aims of Nazism written by the founder of the Nazi moment. Irish is a language that you speak every time you say a place name here. It is older than Sinn Fein, the IRA, you or I. I suspect you know all that though.
“To me, Irish in NI is what the IRA want. Since I hate what the IRA have done, I tend to wince against partaking in their extra curricular activities”
By that logic the shear fact that those in the IRA also wanted to drive cars mean that you will not drive a car.
“Irish was the language of the more brutish and conservative teachers in my school. I never heard it spoken by anyone I aspired to, in fact, it was spoken only by those who repulsed me in terms of their demeanour, attitude and political outlook, which was pro IRA”
With your obvious prejudicial attitude did you honestly expect anyone of mild demeanor to address you in Irish?
besides, why would anyone want to split themselves off from the major body of the lingua Franca ie English? Surely when you learn a new language, it with the purpose to communicate with as many more people as possible?
It depends with whom you want to communicate. The only things that were written about my local area prior to 1700 were written in Irish “By a protestant” called Art Mc Cooey to communicate with him or anyone else of that era I must read Irish. A language is more than a functionary means of face to face communication. You watch films and read books in English to communicate with the Author or filmmaker. I know that my village was a marshy forest because I understand it’s name in Irish.
“Danny Morrison said they every word of Irish is a bullet against Britain”
I am sure those that have been on the receiving end of a bullet would not agree.
this is an ANALOGY
http://tiny.cc/BKFQ7
Definition of analogy: drawing a comparison in order to show a similarity in some respect
Yeah, that’s what he said. A comparison.
Conchubar, do you not think for one minute you’re taking all this a little too seriously? And I fail to see your logic on u deeming my losing the argument by describing a situation where doing X where X is done by Group Y can infer that one is likely to be in Group Y. The fact that I labelled Group Y as Nazi is here nor there but you are verging on gestapo-like ranting agus raving.
If you want to talk the language of the leathery bogmen that turn up now and again, fine but I’d rather speak the Tongue of the scientist, the film maker, the rock star, the fashion makers.
Well Neil. Thank you so much for telling me what I think. For your information….
I am Irish, born in Dublin and have an Irish passport.
As for parades my opinion is not fleeting. I detest and totally fail to understand why sane people should want to parade with inflamanatory banners and ignorant disrespectful songs in places where they are not wanted. I think the OO is a symbol of days long passed and should die out. I object to our pathetic politicians making it an issue as I also object to the Irish language being used as a bargaining chip by SF.
As for my view that the majoity of people in the south would be horrified at the thought that a United Ireland might actually happen.
I have no doubt that a majority would vote for a united ireland as long as they knew that it wont happen. Irish people are sentimental and on the whole this is a good thing. However their desire for a United Ireland is a sentimental dream. If the world was a place without history a united Ireland would be my dream too.
I am not sure that if only catholic people were allowed to vote and if the vote was binding, that a majority would vote for a United ireland.
Regarding the Irish language, I admire people who speak fluent Irish. there are enough of them to ensure that the language will not die. I just dont think the matter should be part of a negotiation on P & J or that cash for the language should be used as a bribe.
And there was no comparison or Nazis and Irish speakers in marc’s post. It was a perfectly respectable analogy. Perhaps an unfortunate one but nevertheless harmless. Beer s a drink in the same way as apples are a fruit. This does not mean Beer is like an apple.
If there is any further clarification you require just ask.
Concubhar
Wouldnt we all. Regrettably aggressive Islam is something that must be dealt with. How would you like Sharia law? I tell you right now, I would not like it one little bit.
I also object to the Irish language being used as a bargaining chip by SF
A bargaining chip? You mean they expect to get something in return for supporting Irish? I think you have it back to front big son, they appear to have made their concessions in order to get Irish on the radar. Not much of a bargaining chip if you have to give stuff away to get it now is it?
Thank you so much for telling me what I think.
I have no doubt that a majority would vote for a united ireland as long as they knew that it wont happen. Irish people are sentimental and on the whole this is a good thing. However their desire for a United Ireland is a sentimental dream.
And thank you for translating the incorrectly expressed wishes of the entire nation. Given they can’t be trusted to do it themselves. So it’s your opinion that Irish folk will lie right up to the polling booth, then switch sides at the last minute to fit in with your desires?
I just dont think the matter should be part of a negotiation on P & J or that cash for the language should be used as a bribe.
In what way is it a part of the P&J negotiation? Is it not conceivable to you that perhaps the British government might have been inclined to honouring previous deals on this? Perhaps they believe (mad and all as this suggestion is) that Nationalist taxpayers have a right to determine how a small part of their taxes might be spent?
And a bribe for what? To get P&J devolved? It wasn’t SF fighting against that, it was the DUP. SF wanted P&J devolved so no bribe required.
And there was no comparison or Nazis and Irish speakers
http://tiny.cc/BKFQ7
Definition of analogy: drawing a comparison in order to show a similarity in some respect.
You are incorrect.
I wonder how many hospital beds could be saved if we stopped funding the arts. I mean do we really need millions of pounds spent on the ulster museum or the ulster hall,the waterfront, w5 or worst of all dead languages. For what? aload of old junk or a bunch of idiots prancing about on the stage? Who needs it. Spend it on education and health. Sure wouldnt the country be a better place for it?With all the savings we might even be able to buy one fighter jet to send of to one of the wars.
I see. Reasoned discussion is simply not possible. Be happy living in your prejeudiced mind. Bye.
Macanna
I think we could easily stop funding the arts. Most of the funding seems to be directed at the so called ‘elite’ any way.
Irish and Ulster Scots are not ‘dead’ languages. It is not true to say they will die unless governments spend millions.
If you are thinking any Brit govt would be against either of them, I direct you to the East end of London, the last time I was there the street signs were in English and, possibly, Bangladesh or Hindi or Hindu, or Swahili, or something.
JR
In my experience most people say Belfast, not Beal Feirste – they’re no more speaking Irish than Americans are speaking Unami when they say Manhattan.
to be honest I don’t think it really that much money – I don’t know enough about how it’s being spent but it doesn’t seem totally crazy. Certainly, far less expensive than introducing some crazy-assed language act. By all means, build a few schools, run a few plays/TV channels etc. But all this crud about translating every document known to mankind to Irish and Ulster scots and to have millions of translators for every public service is a load of nonsense.
I take your point with belfast its phonetically different as with most major towns but many place names are phonetically identical. In the case of townland names nearly them all.
As a matter of interest taking the example of Rathcool, when I say it am I speaking English or Irish? It is phonetically identical to the Irish Rath Cúl. If I say Rathmore am i saying a big fort or not? If there was a place in Spain called Newcastle would locals be speaking English when they say it?
To me saying these place names is speaking Irish because I usually know what they mean.
I was in Austria a few years ago camping and a young woman with almost no English was singing a song with very explicit lyrics she did not understand a word so maybe she was not speaking English but everyone certainly understood it.
“Irish doesn’t encroach on the public space in Ireland – it is part of the public space, whether you like it or not.”
I like being able to communicate with people – whether listening or conversing. I can’t do that when they’re speaking a different language.
Sure they can choose to speak in English, but if they’re constantly trying to assert a different medium of communication artificially (as that is what the intent amounts to – there would be no need for people to mount publicly funded ‘awareness’ campaigns if there actually were people already doing so) then it will only lead to division.
It is in the same manner that Roman Catholic kids are free to go to state schools but are encouraged not to by the existence of a denominational schooling system.
Another example – note the Gaelic posts on Slugger. Only those gifted enough in the language can enter in the debate. That is division right there.
Irish language posts on Slugger are few and far between. They are encouraged because, as far as I can see, the proprietor of Slugger is himself interested in Irish but, more importantly, wants to encourage the use of Irish in the public space. To some, however, this represents an ‘encroachment’, as if there rights were somehow being compromised by the publication of a few Irish posts.
I can’t accept your notion either that speaking Irish, whether it’s ‘artificial’ or not, encourages division. By that logic there should only be one language on the planet and given there are more Chinese than any other nationality, then Chinese or some variation thereof would be that language.
In the context of Irish, the notion that speaking Irish or writing Irish creates division or a ‘chill factor’ has been encouraged by the Equality Commission and, previousl, the Fair Employment Commission. The resultant controversy has resulted in Irish speakers being further margnialised. (I remember in particular the row over the erection of bilingual signage in Queens’ Students Union.) This attitude is entirely wrongheaded and set not alone the cause of Irish but the mission of pluralism and tolerance back several years in NI.
The reality is that Irish is a minority indigenous language and, as such, it deserves protection. It’s not a language of ‘leathery bogmen’, as stated so snidely by Marcionite, but a modern langauge. As I said earlier, the last time an NI film was in consideration for Oscar honours, that film, Kings, was an Irish language film. There are scientists and rockstars and fashion makers who speak Irish too – An Ghaeilge brings out the best in some people…..
” To some, however, this represents an ‘encroachment’, as if there rights were somehow being compromised by the publication of a few Irish posts.”
Encroachment is your whitewashing of what I said. What it actually is is stifling the debate – if a post is written in Gaelic how on earth can anyone not well versed in the language add to the debate? It’s not encroachment it’s narrowing the audience – again contrary to Slugger’s principles. Apologies for pointing out uncomfortable truths.
“By that logic there should only be one language on the planet and given there are more Chinese than any other nationality, then Chinese or some variation thereof would be that language.”
Hardly by that logic actually. Instead it highlights the completely reasonable assertion that it is these artificial constructs that prevent interaction in violently antagonistic communities which lead to a self-perpetuating increase in that same division and lack of understanding.
I am not against the study and general awareness of Irish Gaelic or Ulster Scots. I am against OTT public (political) funding that leads either unionist or nationalist to pitch it as ‘good for unionism’ or a ‘bullet for unification’ and the attempt to mangle ‘the public space’ here that was functioning perfectly fine in a language used by all before the language rights revisionists came our way.
This is the point – on the one hand you say it as a minority language needs protection (that I can support to a degree) but on the other there are those who are taking the piss with demands to do everything in a language of their choice. They’ve no more right to ask for everything in Gaelic than the Polish people here need to have everything similarly vernacular.
I’m sure Adams has regularly fantasies of speaking to the NIO in one tongue and translating for the benefit of his fiefdom in another however that isn’t a reason for begin clamouring for everything to be piped from the public services in separate streams.
There is a lot of politics played both for and against the Irish language.
Fortunately the English paymasters are generous and inclusive to old indigenous languages throughout the UK.
I suppose its their distance from this old indigenous quarrel that gives them this generosity of vision.
All hail our English paymasters. They are cultural giants in comparison to our sad cultural pygmies.
do you ever inhibit the real world or is it too much to bear?
inhibit? I’m sure you understood what I meant to say
Do you know how much money is paid each day in interest on GB’s national debt? Each hour? This is money we are getting nothing in return for. (BTW, per HOUR, UK taxpayers are spending more than 3 Million pounds on interest payments)
How much money is wasted via fraud on the health care system each day? How much is spent on re-education Islamists in England? On unemployment benefits for alcoholics?
$3 million is nothing. I personally think the GB govt pays for too many things for too many people, and for some things that are better left for private charities/corporations to take on. However, a pittance like this for a language their predecessors were responsible for wiping out doesn’t seem unreasonable. Let’s not forget an Irish language act was promised.
But feel free to punch the next person you hear speaking Irish for forcing your poor Grandma out on the street.