Education is not just about books and exams. It is about experience and maturity. Gypsies and Roma have their own ways and their own definitions of education. I know this: I never met one who couldnt add up.

Colton.[/i]

You are pushing it already by associating Adrian Colton with the SDLP but to suggest his son’s involvement in racist attacks has anything to do with the party is outrageous.

Below you can see a link to Paul Krugman and his facts re the issue of the why’s and wherefores of rising inequality in the USA . He shatters some myths . As he puts it the USA is unique in this respect for ‘political’ rather than merely economic or due to world wide globalisation.

I believe South Africa is the worst followed by China , India , Russia , Nigeria and the USA is closer to the latter group than to other developed countries in europe .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kwA-CwFK5A

I’m not a racist person. This is based on my experience with these people.

I haven’t come across any personally in the states.

Veterans of Vietnam war, sure (and that encompasses a good portion of that generation at it was not a volunteer army then). I live in DC where there is a substantial homeless population who I work with sometimes through my Church and I have yet to meet an Iraqi or Afgan war vet. But yes, as in Orwell’s time, most homeless are male.

” (US is) the country where the greatest amount of wealth has been accumulated in the smallest number of hands i.e as a percentage of the population ”

Nope. Check out a few of the middle eastern countries to see some sickening inequality. But compared to EU countries, yep.

‘As with the economic crises it has become increasingly clear immigration needs to be dealt with in a planned way and on an EU wide bases. The problem is the EU has operated in support of the multi national corporations and large EU based employers. Hence the member states have all but turned a blind eye to illegal immigration, as it created a reservoir of cheap labour which benefited the said corporations, plus ‘when’ employers collect it properly immigration provides governments with an additional tax base, which with the EU’s falling populations is to be welcomed.’

That ‘reservoir’ of cheap labour was formerly supplied by indigenous English, Germans, French , Italians , Irish etc in their own countries prior to the 1960′s, but since then with the ‘working class ‘ opting out of reproducing their numbers as they did in previous epochs , to supply cannon fodder for wars and cheap labour for the mills, mines and factories – birth control and later marriages led to a raising of living standards and income standards for the bottom half of the population. This was achieved by enacted legislation by governments and by productivity increases in output . As the world moved into the 1970′s with the oil crises and corporations in the West being squeezed by wage demands from powerful unions and from the public sector -profits were squeezed and the great move offshore to cheaper locations commenced . This move was added to by the globalisation of the world economy and the technological and communications revolutions . The weakened unions in the private sector became ever weaker until now they are virtually powerless . Public sector unions now account for the majority of union members and still have some clout . But overall there has been rising inequality in incomes in the western countries with the USA probably being the economy with the greatest gap and also the country where the greatest amount of wealth has been accumulated in the smallest number of hands i.e as a percentage of the population . This phenomenon has accelerated in the past 15 years .

It may be gradually dawning on many people in the western economies that Governments are powerless to effect the major economic policy changes needed to restore some measure of equity into their countries . It may also be dawning on many that what we now call ‘capitalism’ will prove unable to provide /supply ‘full employment’ or anything like it and that Governments everywhere will be pressured to reduce social spending in areas as health and education .

Not exactly the conditions that led to the Russian revolution but not too far away from them either . To those who say that the situations are not comparable given that the average American or European is so much better off than the average Russian serf was in 1917 I would say that the American and European are not comparing themselves with Russian serfs from 1917 but they are comparing the present situation with that of their parents genration who were a lot more optimistic about the future of their children and grandchildren . I had a telephone call today from somebody in the USA who saw their first ‘beggar mother ‘ standing at an exit ramp outside a town in Florida . The woman in her mid thirties held up a placard which said ‘mother of three -destitute -now homeless just needs money to feed children ‘

Normally it’s men -usually veterans or ex Iraqi or Afghan war -who are seen in these situations and many are usually ignored by drivers . On this occasion my caller said that drivers were all slowing down and giving the woman a couple of dollars .

How long will it be before ‘drivers’ won’t even slow down for ‘mothers of three ‘. She was a white woman and looked like dishevelled ‘middle/working class ‘ She had the three young children beside her which I suppose was ‘convincing’?

And no my caller did not disdain the woman for he knows that in that State the working poor are turfed out on to the street within a month or two if they can’t pay their rent and there is nowhere for them to go .

Are you still a Managing Director at Weber-Shandwick?

Where would I find onformation about the assembly’s outside PR budget and how much went to WB?

With a nick like mine I couldn’t possibly comment.

Ahaaa, at last we have got to the bottom of this matter, I wondered how long it would take.

“why this section of the WC has expanded so dramatically over the last 30 odd years.”

Could be due to the obesity epidemic among the underclass, resulting in ever-expanding bums.

Fabianus

Just because you say something does not make it so, a number of commentators here have pointed out you are mistaken, yet you repeat the same old stuff, without replying to your critics when they point out why this section of the WC has expanded so dramatically over the last 30 odd years.

Personally I wonder if you are just up to mischief and whether you are truly that bigoted that you cannot see; like all sections of society, the people you continue to insult by calling them an underclass come in all shapes and sizes, etc.

Drumlins Rock

As much as I like the idea of open borders, I fear the pitfalls and lack of infrastructure would work against us building a cohesive society, so I believe those who arrive here illegally and fail to register as asylum seekers, should be dealt with by the police and/or immigration service. As to should those who are begging and hassling drivers at traffic lights etc.

Although I agree with greenflag, the Roma are a complex peoples and they should be dealt with sensitively, even if some of them can drive you up the wall at times. What I am totally against is demonising newcomers, not least because it is brutish and counterproductive.

I live in an area which is going through one of its periodic influxes of newcomers. I do not panic about it as I am old enough to have seen it all before. When I was a child people from the north of England Scotland, Wales and Ireland came here to work in the industries which were part of the post WW2 expansion of the UK’s industrial base. These were followed by a large influx of people from the Indian sub continent. Then we had Asians from east Africa; and so it went on, with Bosnians, Poles, etc, and now people from West and southern Africa have arrived.

In the main most of this folk have/or will become productive members of society, many marrying into local families and by local I mainly mean the offspring of previous generations of newcomers.

Just as I have become used to this, so will the rest of you, I have noticed my granddaughters generation, both of the girls have a melting plot of blood in their veins, demand the right to travel the world for educational, social and work reasons. I have a German niece studying at uni in Scotland.

The one stipulation I would make is when you travel to other peoples countries it must be done legally, otherwise it opens a very large can of worms at the base of which is deceit and lies, never a good bases to start a new life on.

As with the economic crises it has become increasingly clear immigration needs to be dealt with in a planned way and on an EU wide bases. The problem is the EU has operated in support of the multi national corporations and large EU based employers. Hence the member states have all but turned a blind eye to illegal immigration, as it created a reservoir of cheap labour which benefited the said corporations, plus ‘when’ employers collect it properly immigration provides governments with an additional tax base, which with the EU’s falling populations is to be welcomed.

“Until next year, migrants from Romania and Bulgaria can only work as self-employed people and are not eligible for most benefits. That is why they have to sell papers or beg.”

I’ll take your word regarding the rules. If they don’t know the score before they move to this country, they should be told it upon entry.
That way they can’t complain when they find themselves on the street. Fair’s fair, no matter what race you are.

But even assumming those are the rules, it doesn’t follow that because you can only work as a self-employed person your only options are to sell papers or beg! And you’ve no right to feel aggrieved when people react with some verbal abuse when you approach them (illegally) for money.

I hear you -Kraft btw is an American multinational .

As Framer points out above Romanians and Bulgarians don’t have much of a choice . Once upon a time and not too long a time ago the ‘underclass ‘ comprised 95% of the population . For economic , political and other reasons they now comprise a minority albeit an apparent growing minority in some western countries .

No easy answers .

OK, let me make this as plain as I can.

“Underclass” in my book is not synonymous with “working class”. The first are people who don’t take responsibility for themselves, their actions and their children’s lives.

The second is a group of people I’m proud to belong to. Unlike the underclass, a sub-group of our group, we do take responsibility for the above.

We also work hard to better ourselves in the face of capitalist bastards like Kraft (German for “power” of course) who don’t give a shit about anybody but themselves.

‘Which is why I regard the underclass with the disdain they deserve.’

In western England the Cadbury workers were told that Kraft (the multinational ) which had bought out Cadburys , and promised that jobs would not be lost locally, have now reneged on their promise and that yes the 400 jobs will be lost . A misunderstanding apparently and not an outright lie of course

They will be lost because Kraft’s new 160 million dollar investment in Poland will do the business.
In their announcement Kraft have embarrassed Mandelson and made him look like a fool .

Many of the people you choose to disdain as underclass are the ‘remnants ‘ of Britain’s manufacturing classes which have been in decline now for approx 50 years, right from the time that immigrants from outside these islands began to compete in the UK Labour Market. Many will have ‘joined’ the underclass as a result of circumstances similar to the Cadbury situation .

Yes there is a small number of people who abuse the system and they should be dealt with by the law . The ‘system’ abuses a lot more people imo than vice versa when one considers the overall relationship between capital and labour . It has to . Bankers come first followed by corporate and multi national interests , the remnants of aristocracy , followed by the professional and semi professional public service gougers that prey on the State for support etc etc .

If you are looking for non ethical people to disdain there are better and more deserving targets out there than the Roma . The Roma and the so called ‘underclass’ represent just the tip of the iceberg .

There is a truth in what you all say . But it’s the truth of reaction to changing worldwide economic circumstances. Not too many give any thought to the reasons for this mass immigration other than the obvious economic impetus .

Prior to 1955 /1960 most western european countries did not have large numbers of immigrants . That situation began to change with Caribbeans coming to the UK -Spanish and Italians going to West Germany and Algerians and Moroccans and Spanish going to France . Today there are Senegalese in Italy – and Poles everywhere and even Russians and Latvians etc etc in Ireland .

So why has all this come to pass . I’m prepared to admit that immigration is a bit like arsenic – a tonic if taken in not too large a dose . Socially destabilising if it’s more than an economy can bear .

But the question is why has this mass migration taken place and why have so few governments done very much to control it ?? And I mean prior to EU entry as well as post ?

I read today that President Obama in his effort to increase employment for out of work Americans wants to enact legislation which would make the hiring of immigrants to do seasonal agricultural harvesting work more ‘difficult’ so that Americans could apply for and do these jobs .

In my minds eye I see an obese 270 lb male American/EU citizen coucher climbing an orange tree or bending over to harvest tomatoes or stawberries and doing it for 5 dollars an hour or the euro /pound equivalent or less ? And then I see the ‘obese’ one falling and breaking a leg or an arm and being ‘uninsured ‘ and the harvest going unpicked etc etc .

The Roma are a much maligned people not just in Belfast but in their country of origin Romania and in the nearby Czech Republic , Slovakia , and eastern Hungary . They have a thousand years of being ‘excluded’ behind them . It’s a difficult problem to resolve not just in Belfast but in Dublin and Frankfurt and Hamburg and London etc etc .