DUP Support for Islam4UK parade through Wootton Bassett and Republican parade through Shankill?
DUP MLA Nelson McCausland used the platform of his party’s meeting with the Parades Commission today to contrast the end of apartheid in South Africa with the ‘cultural apartheid’ in Portadown, where the downtrodden Orangemen are apparently being refused a basic human right (This must call from some variation on Godwin’s law to be established with reference to apartheid.)
The ludicrousness of the proposition once again beggars belief, but it also provides the opportunity to pose a number of questions to those of similar minds with Nelson on Slugger.
Firstly, If parading is a universal right, then why have unionist politicians vehemently opposed the few republican parades which seek to infringe on interface and mixed communities (never mind pass through completely unionist residential districts.)
Secondly, does the Orange Order- and, come to think of it, DUP- support the campaign by Islam4UK to march through Wootton Bassett?
Thirdly, consider this scenario. Imagine if I wanted to organise a republican parade from Ardoyne, passing via Twaddel Avenue/ West Circular Road to the Springfield Road. I’m willing to enter into negotiations with local residents, and even unionist political parties/ church leaders/ loyalist paramilitaries. In the event of local residents refusing to not only support my right to parade but also refuse to meet with me, do you believe they are guilty of desiring cultural apartheid?
When the usual ferryloads of drunken loyalists arrive here from Glasgow etc for this year’s hooliganism, sorry, marching season, we could send them (the whole shebang, cops, OO, military) down to the road where you live, Pip, if you like, see what it’s REALLY like. Get the kettle on.
‘Parades Factor’ would be the best TV ever. Imagine the weekly pressure to improve on the ‘acts’. Conjours images of Orangemen tooting on saxaphones, maybe various Orders with hula-hoops or juggling balls.
A good opportunity to thrash out the parades issues,
bill of rights and just exactly were our politicians stand on these issues. I notice Davis Cameron is being challanged over his visit to apartheid S Africa. Will Nelson Mc Causland be challanged over his “support” for apartheid? Is it still a secret that when Mandela opened up and offered as a host his country for talks between Unionists and Nationalists many years ago(1998?)Unionists refused to travel in the same plane as Nationalist, Unionists wanted seperate buses, seperate hotels and conferences facilities. Nelson Mandela asked the unionist delagation “do you wish to bring back apartheid”?
That answer may be telling.Lily Campbell
During the talking that went on at Hillsborough the DUP spokesmen and women playing out little teasing games. “No comment you will just have to wait and see” “You will be told everything when all has been agreed” These comments were followed by patronising smiles(From those that do actually smile) and nods and winks. Contrast that to the outburst from Nelson McCausland. He is serving on the neat committee to resolve the marching issue in just two weeks time and they are meeting every day. A mini Hillsborough?? Surely the discussions on this issue would be best done at the committee rather than in the street in front of a camera.
wee buns
I am not suggesting parades should not be policed. The unionists do not have a monopoly on loutish behaviour, they dont even have a monopoly on Scottish football teams, let alone those football supporters who think any excuse for a drunken rampage is a good excuse.
I have already said that I would prefer to see every parade banned. The whole lot no exceptions. We are not likely to see that so we must come to some agreement, thats all. If I could I would ban everything I dislike, what a tyrant I would be!
Alias on Feb 11, 2010 @ 06:56 PM
(referring to Art 11 ECHR)
>>However, what right under the ECHR do citizens have to prevent peaceful assembly by other citizens? None that I can see.<<
Here it is contained within the very same Article 11 that you quoted.
..for the protection of health or morals or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.
In mentioning the “Rights and freedoms of others” the Courts in Scotland have been very wary of restrivcting freedom of assembly despite community agitation for it. Specifically we refer to Art 8 a right to respect for one’s private and family life, his home and his correspondence. Which would be the main one considering that the right to go about your business in peace would be infringed by the OO and supporters collectively commiting a breach of the peace by “conduct tending to put the lieges into a state of fear and alarm”(Scots Law)
Although Strasbourg would only need to consider the main breach, we could also consider Article 5, that everyone has the right to liberty and security of person. Remember how people are coralled into their homes and streets, a very basic breach of their liberty and one that I am surprised has not(to my knowledge) been tested.
At a push we could even consider Article 3, which prohibits torture, and “inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment”. The degrading treatment of course being subject to triumphalist groups glorifying sectarian killers abusing the head of religion(the Pope) etc whilst passing your home protected by state authorities.
Pipp Feb 11, 2010 @ 10:37 PM
>>Were there not a group of people called Picts who lived in a country called Scotland. Does not history show the Picts were wiped out by invading Celts?< <
Scotland did not exist at this time and no the Scots did not wipe out anybody. The pctish leaders at the time became culturally Gaelic and the people(just like in kingdoms all over Europe) steadily followed.
>>Andrew Gallagher
We evidently read different history books.
Funny how history for many is what they want to see.< <
Just because it may suit you to have it so doesn't make it so, and I'd be interested in those history books you read. Know any titles?
Andrew Gallacher
>>In the case of Scotland, the Picts’ language died out shortly after being conquered by the Scots, but the population didn’t go anywhere. Most modern historians also believe that the Picts were themselves a Celtic culture.<<
The Scots did not conquer the Picts, it was a dynastic marriage between the elites of as you rfer to complementary peoples who had been exposed to each other for yonks with no reported historical ill will.
Andrew Gallagher
So your argument is the Picts leaders became culturally Gaelic. The Pictish people followed, just like in kingdoms all over Europe.
Those are big statements! and totally ignore all the wars and battles those little kingdoms went through before they were assimilated into the dominant culture.
As for the books I will look up the relevant titles and let you know. Or you could try doing that for yourself. Oh, and I will not be looking them up today. I have a life!
Prionsa Eoghann
This happy dynastic marriage of elites you refer to as between complimentary peoples. Really? and the only survivors of this marriage were Celts.
People die in parade related violence. It was pushed through Garvaghy in ’96 & ’97 under threat of catholics being killed if disallowed. They were killed anyway.
This tradition goes back to 1795, the first ‘Drumcree’, when after an anti-papal speech, two taigs were killed in a bog.
Pip, what I suggest is that life on Planet Pip might differ somewhat from life elsewhere. This is not about having the luxury to like or ‘dislike’ parades.
Piip
The arguments you are attributing to Andrew Gallagher are in fact mine. Anyway;
>>Those are big statements! and totally ignore all the wars and battles those little kingdoms went through before they were assimilated into the dominant culture.< <
I'm sure there were small scale conflict as there was throughout history even in settled dynasties/countries. What you claimed was that the Scots "wiped out" the Picts. Show me evidence to support this nonsense.
>>This happy dynastic marriage of elites you refer to as between complimentary peoples. Really? and the only survivors of this marriage were Celts.< <
Don't be daft! Gaelic was still spoken in lowland Scotland until the 17thC, a Cornish speaking army laid seige to London in the 1500's. Languages and cultures slowly erode as we can summise with Pictish, if it was so different from Dalriadic. Look at how Scots is slowly being eroded from Scotland and has been reduced to a corners of Antrim. Dominant cultures/languages be they Gaelic over Pictish or Germanic over Scots/Gaelic steadily overpower others.
>>As for the books I will look up the relevant titles and let you know. Or you could try doing that for yourself. Oh, and I will not be looking them up today. I have a life!<<
*chuckles*
Ok pal whenever you are ready.
wee buns
At least planet pip is firmly in 2010 and not stuck in 1795!
I want a united Ireland. Some are prepared to die or kill for it. And then there is me, here on planet pip, saying can we not just give each other a break?
I say a united Ireland would have to tolerate the damn marches anyway, so we might as well get used to it now.
Thats all for now from planet pip I have to deal with
Prionsa Eoghann
I really am a bit busy today (trying to get a divination pendant to work), but I will give you a hint where to look and when I have time I will browse for you.
Most of the historical reading I have done over the last several years has been about Celtic history and Witchcraft, cant remember the author at the moment, but I know I have several books by Raymond Buckland, you could check there because I remember he wrote a book called Scottish Witchcraft. It may not be the right book but it is the right direction. Oh, and before you mock, we were Celts, had a faith and a history long before we were Catholic.
Good luck! who knows you may find your faith in the Goddess!
pipp
Don’t trouble yoursel. We can just put your claims down to you being away wi the fairies ;¬)
>>..Oh, and before you mock…< <
Frig! Too late.
>>we were Celts, had a faith and a history long before we were Catholic.<<
Our culture could be classified as Celtic but that process is still to be difinitively settled. Our genes though are of the western seaboard, from Galicia, the basque country and Cornwall to the western isles.
Prionsa Eoghann
You are doing it again!
I understand we began, as it were, in what is now India. Indeed there are still in far flung regions red headed Indians and a tribe in Afghanistan, until recently anyway, with the blue eyes and black hair so familiar to the Celts.
You can check in Wikipedia if it makes you feel more comfortable. It has quite a long list of references. Im smiling about the fairies, at least Im not a banshee!
Im currently on a course, nothing to do with the ‘old ways’ and today during our break the subject turned to Tarot and Runes. Do you know every woman there had a pack of Tarot cards and several had sets of Runes. The men, whilst denying any interest of course, wanted to borrow the cards, just for a quick check. This is Ireland a place of magic and myth.
You should know a wise man would be very careful before he mocks the fairies If I thought it would work I would threaten both sides with serious boils for daring to argue about their bloody parades.
prionisa Eoghann
Just had a quick look and its on the bbc web as well, look under the section re Kenneth McAlpine.
It could be argued the Picts were absorbed into the Gaelic but that assumes a willingness to lose their entire identity.
If ever there was an argument for bringing back the ducking stool…..
Some would have us believe the Orange Order are only walking to christian church services to consult some invisible guy about deliverance. I believe parades in interface areas are about reinforcing supremacy under the cloak of shared space. They are not about any notion of promoting Orange Fest that most people could be comfortable with. These particular parades are about reinforcing containment by ensuring the boundaries demarcating areas like Ardoyne are reinforced and the cultural divide between the communities is even greater. This is the opposite of promoting a shared future and to suggest the organisers of such parades are victims of cultural apartheid is ludicrous.
Rory Carr
The ducking stool, closely followed by burning at the stake no doubt.
Seanchai Ard Eoin
Perhaps its fear, have you thought of that? Fear that the culture they love, different, but closely connected to our own, will be lost.
You see above a silly argument about the Picts. If we agree on nothing else we should be able to agree that there is nothing real left to show of the Picts, most of their history has to be guessed at, educated guesses no doubt, but still guesses, open to interpretation and mistake.
The OOs and unionists cherish the difference between their ways and ours. Is that such a bad thing. We may have lost a lot of battles, but we will in the end win the war. We can be generous.
pip
>>You are doing it again!< <
Doing what again?
>>You can check in Wikipedia if it makes you feel more comfortable.<<
I recently goat ma baws felt fur listing one wiki reference out of 55 on a report I completed lately. I deserved every hurtful squeeze as wiki is highly unreliable. A bit pie in the sky, cloud cukoo land, hocus pocus.
Know whit ah mean!
Too busy pishin myself that I missed this;
>>It could be argued the Picts were absorbed into the Gaelic but that assumes a willingness to lose their entire identity.<<
So they weren’t wiped out as per your original claim.
As for willingness to lose identiy. I cringe everytime someone crows about how beautiful Victoria Bekham is, but it seems the shallow and misguided are the cultural leaders of our society and where they go we follow. History is doomed to repeat itself.
Pip. Trouble with ‘saying can we not just give each other a break?’ is that the answer from the intrangsigent element is ‘no’. The point of refering to 1795 is merely to contextualize this. Same intrangsigence, more recent; point also made by Elizabeth at 2 of this page.
The OO parade at Rossnowlagh is tolerated because it’s attendants are reasonably behaved (not the case elsewhere) & the area is relatively unpopulated, although the atmposphere is far from what could be described as one of joyous celebration, at least no-one dies or is under seige.
Much like the catholic church’s complete failure to take responsibility for the crimes of it’s priests, the OO seems equally ambivalent towards the crimes of hooligan individuals. Which is why I suggested in an earlier thread, that the LODGE to which the rogue element belongs should be suspended from marching, hopefully creating an ethos of accountability where there has been none.
Prionsa Eoghan
I also suggested the bbc. Not that the beeb or wicci were my original source, but because they are easy on the web and I have no time to search through all my books on history. Both of these refer to Gaelic triumphs but neither offer definite proof.
The difference between ‘wiped out and absorbed’ is another poser. A language, a culture lost because they were no longer wanted. My that does not compare well to Ireland or anywhere else does it.
What in the world does Victoria Beckham have to do with this?
History does tend to repeat itself, I suspect this is because we never learn.
wee buns
Why would you think I have a higher opinion of the OO than I do of the Catholic church. Forget north and south, think stubborn, intransigent, dictatorial, and you could be thinking of either or both of them.
“They go to take potshots at wooly heads and wogs, to destroy their infrastructure and to generally abuse people – as they did here.”
Get a clue.
wee buns: Which is why I suggested in an earlier thread, that the LODGE to which the rogue element belongs should be suspended from marching, hopefully creating an ethos of accountability where there has been none.
The parades commission can specify that some specific bands, and maybe lodges, may not take part in a parade that is otherwise allowed. And I also think that the OO should do a far better job of penalising bands and lodges.
But, except at the most politicised events, the worst behaviour is from neither bands, nor lodges, but from ‘followers’, who are only loosely associated with either of the other groups. Guilt by association is maybe a step too far?
Pippakin
“I would love to see the reaction on republican or anyone elses face if they were denied the right to show respect for their soldiers”
Republicans were denied the right to show respect for their soldiers when republican mourners were batoned by the RUC at republican funerals RUC fired plastic bullets into mourners, rammed mourners with jeeps, a loyalist thug attacked republican mourners with bomb and bullet killing 3 mourners at a republican funeral. Now would you still like to see the reaction on the republican face ?
paddyjoe
British soldiers were not allowed to wear their uniforms in public in their home towns, or tell anyone they were in the armed forces, in case someone was a terrorist.
It was bitter and violent and it is over.
We commemorate our losses and so do they, thats how it must be. Everyone has the right to grieve.
paddyjoe
we have seen the reaction of repulicans when they where denied the right to show respect for there dead,if you remember lawernce marley and the reponse of the ira it was to bomb a funeral of a policeman.
Lamhdearg
we have seen the reaction of repulicans when they where denied the right to show respect for there dead,if you remember lawernce marley and the reponse of the ira it was to bomb a funeral of a policeman.
Come on they did not bomb the funeral of a policeman, after dozens of attacks by the RUC on republican funerals the IRA planted a HOAX bomb at the gates of a graveyard where a policeman was to be buried. As if to say if you do not stop attacking our funerals we can attack yours,your post makes it sound like they exploded a bomb in the middle of the funeral
The RUC always policed funerals admirably…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDLKT_j5uaw
“Its all about TRADITION.
The Orange Order have a tradional right to walk the Queens Highway.”
Last time I checked, the so-called “Queen(‘)s Highway” is for motor vehicles. However, if you want to exercise your “tradional” right to walk on the pavement, then feel free to do so.
Nelson McCausland’s accusation that the minority community in Portadown is pursuing a policy of ‘cultural apartheid’ is a gross and insulting distortion of the facts. The International Criminal Court defined apartheid as being inhumane acts ‘committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime’. Neither the nationalist/catholic community in Portadown or the Garvaghy Road Residents Coalition are interested in oppressing Orange culture or dominating Protestants. What they are about is putting an end to the cultural, socioeconomic, and political discrimination and violence that has been revived with symbolic displays of Orange supremacy for a couple of hundred years.
The actual origins of that tradition of sectarian apartheid can be traced at least as far back as June of 1795 when a Rev. George Maunsell called on his congregation ‘to celebrate the anniversary of the Battle of the Boyne in the true spirit of the institution’ by attending a sermon to be given by a Rev. Devine of the Established Church at Drumcree on Sunday the 1st of July. That 1st of July Sunday service gave birth to the 200-year-old tradition of ‘First Sunday’ ‘Church Parades’ to and from Drumcree Church. On page seventeen of a ‘History of Ireland’ (Vol. I), published in 1809, Francis Plowden described the Rev Devine’s sermon as having:
so worked up the minds of his audience, that upon retiring from service, on the different roads leading to their respective homes, they gave full scope to the antipapistical zeal, with which he had inspired them, falling upon every Catholic they met, beating and bruising them without provocation or distinction, breaking the doors and windows of their houses, and actually murdering two unoffending Catholics in a bog. This unprovoked atrocity of the Protestants revived and redoubled religious rancour. The flame spread and threatened a contest of extermination…
Two hundred years later, in July 1995, we had the ‘first’, ‘Frst Sunday’, ‘Drumcree Siege’ and the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland published ‘The Order on Parade’. In that ‘educational’ booklet the Grand Lodge held that ‘If people were better informed as to the nature of the Orange Institution they would be in a much better position to understand the purpose of parades’. The booklet went on to explain Orange culture and defended all and every Orange Parade as being part of a colourful tradition that fulfilled a common need to celebrate political and religious commitments and beliefs. They described Orange parading as being ‘a celebration’, ‘a display of pageantry’, ‘a demonstration of strength’ that provides ‘a sense of tradition’, ‘a testimony and a statement of beliefs’, and ‘the culmination of each lodge’s activities’.
Now we have a Minister for Culture who is determined to revive ‘religious rancour’ and risk a return to the ‘contest of extermination’ by supporting the culture of physical, territorial, political, socioeconomic, religious and symbolic domination that has issued from the doors of Drumcree church ever since that murderous ‘Frst Sunday’ of 1795. Perhaps if ‘our’ Minister for Culture were better informed as to the history of those paramilitary demonstrations of strength he would be in a better position understand what motivates opposition to such expressions of Orange culture. To that end, and with the editor’s permission, may I direct him and the Grand Lodge historians to the research papers that I have posted on the internet at http://orangecitadel.blogspot.com.
Chris
i seem to remember a republican funeral walking this route in the early 70s. The coffin was draped with a tricolor, which was snatched by a young loyalist on the West Circular Rd. If my memory serves me well there was a republican honour party marching alongside the hearse. The police pushed the funeral through the area but I don’t recall any violence.