DUP Support for Islam4UK parade through Wootton Bassett and Republican parade through Shankill?
DUP MLA Nelson McCausland used the platform of his party’s meeting with the Parades Commission today to contrast the end of apartheid in South Africa with the ‘cultural apartheid’ in Portadown, where the downtrodden Orangemen are apparently being refused a basic human right (This must call from some variation on Godwin’s law to be established with reference to apartheid.)
The ludicrousness of the proposition once again beggars belief, but it also provides the opportunity to pose a number of questions to those of similar minds with Nelson on Slugger.
Firstly, If parading is a universal right, then why have unionist politicians vehemently opposed the few republican parades which seek to infringe on interface and mixed communities (never mind pass through completely unionist residential districts.)
Secondly, does the Orange Order- and, come to think of it, DUP- support the campaign by Islam4UK to march through Wootton Bassett?
Thirdly, consider this scenario. Imagine if I wanted to organise a republican parade from Ardoyne, passing via Twaddel Avenue/ West Circular Road to the Springfield Road. I’m willing to enter into negotiations with local residents, and even unionist political parties/ church leaders/ loyalist paramilitaries. In the event of local residents refusing to not only support my right to parade but also refuse to meet with me, do you believe they are guilty of desiring cultural apartheid?
Mr Donnelly,
Its all about TRADITION.
The Orange Order have a tradional right to walk the Queens Highway.
Everyone else has no traditional rights….except to get batoned out of the way to facilitate OO rights.
Having established their right on Garvaghy Road for 200 years or whatever….the residents have established their rights for about 11 years. So in 189 years we can have a chat about it.
Wootton Bassett will I expect be a reference point…..ironically the OO will have more in common with those trying to prevent Islam4uk.
Brilliant to see Nelson McCausland invoke Seth Effrikka another Orange Free State…….SF should have siezed the opportunity provided by the cunning old linguist to arrange a message of congratulation on 20th anniv of the release of Nelson Mandela…….or at least asked McCausland if he is related to Mandela or perhaps named for him as a kind of gesture of solidarity for ANC by Nelson McCauslands father.
One of the principles of the Civil Rights movement was the right to march I believe. Republicans/nationalists appear to have moved on since then, but not forwards.
Oh god no, here we go…
Drunken mobs of Billy Wright flag waving bigots,right wing idiots in bowler hats singing sectarian songs were drove through here before which lead in the deaths of nationalists from Portadown, major rioting and a huge increase in tension.
The forced marches attracted international condemnation.
None of this matters to McCauseland (a man described as a fundamentalist by the Daily Telegraph) , he wants his Trimble moment, his little war celebration in the faces of the Irish people and he wants to revel in it.
Absoloutly disgusting, and ironic he talks of peoples rights when he is so extremely disrespectful to the Irish people.
Nutters the lot ‘em.
Imagine if I wanted to organise a republican parade from Ardoyne, passing via Twaddel Avenue/ West Circular Road to the Springfield Road.
Someone should organise that march, just for the craic like…
One of the principles of the Civil Rights movement was the right to march I believe.
That would be news to rest of us. The five demands were:
– one man, one vote
– an end to gerrymandering
– an end to discrimination in housing
– an end to discrimination in jobs
– the disbandment of the B-Specials
Could Nelson McCausland not get Islam4UK on a few Orange Order marches in the spirit of adding a multi-cultural flavour to the rather homogeneous proceedings.
Mr McCausland said residents “were trying to claim ownership of particular roads and say ‘you cannot go there without our consent’”.
“There is not other way to describe that but cultural apartheid,” he said.
Just to put Nelson’s carefully thought out utterances into context, it should be noted that this is the same Nelson mcCausland who, in November 1984, led a campaign against St Malachy’s Grammar School, which wanted to reopen playing pitches in a largely Protestant area of North Belfast.
There would be much less problem within the protestant community about parading generally if Gerry Adams hadn’t insisted in bragging about it being a “created” situation rather than something that just happened, and the perception is therefore that it’s less about local residents and more about republicanism getting another victory.
Increasingly we are seeing that people have taken on-board the idea that for anything to be acceptable, no one must be seen to have victory. Well as far as parades are concerned there is little doubt that the prods have got a right battering so I think that there is unfinished business there to some degree.
What a sad bunch you are. Here we have terrible allegations of child abuse and rape and there is little doubt that in due course we will find the same charges alleged against the other side. And all so many of us care about is a march once a year.
Make a note bigots: Wootton Bassett is not and has never been a parade. It is some members of the public paying their respects to a fallen soldier on his way home. I would love to see the reaction on republican or anyone elses face if they were denied the right to show respect for their soldiers.
For Gods Sake GROW UP!
The whole lot of you make me so angry.
Article 11 of the ECHR (freedom of assembly and association) is a qualified right:
[i]1. Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association with others, including the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.
2. No restrictions shall be placed on the exercise of these rights other than such as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others. This article shall not prevent the imposition of lawful restrictions on the exercise of these rights by members of the armed forces, of the police or of the administration of the State.[/i]
No restrictions are placed on the Orange Order’s right to peaceful assembly other than are required for “public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.” The Orange Order seem to have mistaken a qualified right for an absolute right.
However, what right under the ECHR do citizens have to prevent peaceful assembly by other citizens? None that I can see. Communities do not have any ‘sovereign’ rights to the territory wherein they reside (unless it is private property), so they have no right to establish borders for the purpose of ad hoc immigration control.
It is not a rights-management issue but an issue ralated to competing national groups who are forced to share one state. That’s local politics and has nothing to do with human rights courts.
Let’s have a bit of genuine democracy. Most of us don’t want any trouble. Those politicians who help to cause trouble on the streets in 2010 will be regarded with loathing and contempt.
There is and can be no such thing as a Bible-believing causer of trouble, or a Bible-believing thrower of petrol-bombs.
Some sheep are funny. For three weeks you work day and night to stop them throwing themselves over a precipice. Eventually they undertake to behave. You sigh with relief. Then they run off and throw themselves over the precipice. ‘We didn’t give up our principles,’ they bleat as they fly through the air. ‘You can’t fool us with your fancy talk. We know what’s what.’
Hilarious. What a bigoted mindless fool. Any comparisons to Apartheid South Africa will never come down on the side of Nelson and his beloved Orange Order.
pippakin, divorce yourself from dragging your obvious dislike of child abusers/perverts into EVERY posting. The Wooton Bassett thing refers to the proposed parade by the Islam4Uk to march through that very same town – not to the feting of the returned gunmen even if they are some mother’s son.
pipakin post (10)
References to Wooton Basset are that Islam4Uk wanted to organise a march throuh the town.
The goverment moved quickly to ban this march from marching where it was/is not wanted.
I believe they prescribed one of the groups wanting to march as well.
pippakin – I don’t think anyone is talking about the returning coffins at Wootton Bassett, but rather the Islamic group that wanted to hold a protest march there.
Rightly it was banned for being provocative and hate inducing. Quite similar in those regards to OO marches through nationalist residential areas.
Ulick. You are correct of course. But wasn’t the banning of NICRA’s marches an affront to freedom of assembly, a fundamental right, and a part of the wider cause of securing rights at that time?
Chris Donnelly: Secondly, does the Orange Order- and, come to think of it, DUP- support the campaign by Islam4UK to march through Wootton Bassett?
Almost certainly not, though it will help their case that Islam4UK is a proscribed organisation. Are you (or SF) seeking to have the Orange Order proscribed, likewise?
Chris Donnelly: Imagine if I wanted to organise a republican parade from Ardoyne…
Start with the Hibernians, an exclusively Catholic organisation, and a far better analogy, as they also have traditional routes.
Chris Donnelly: This must call from some variation on Godwin’s law to be established with reference to apartheid.
Great – are republicans going to set an example of restraint in this respect?
Why not just do a show every year on BBC1 before the ‘marching season’ commences…half an hour where all the contentious parades are settled one way or another with a heads or tails.
Imagine the ratings….
Socaire! Panic & JohnM
Islam 4UK have appeared in several guises, each time one group is banned the same people pop up with a different name.
If I remember correctly their proposed march was opposed by thousands in internet campaigns, they decided not to march – before any official ban – although there is no doubt it would have been banned.
Importantly the Islam for UK proposal was not about a long established parade in an area they had always paraded through. This was a deliberate and blatant attempt to gain publicity for their cause. In effect they were successful beyond their wildest expectations. For them it was Job Done.
Socaire!
I just read you line properly. You go too far laddie! Show a bit of respect for real soldiers! Who stood out in a fucking desert in full uniform!
And another thing. If we all spent our time getting rid of child abusers and perverts instead of worrying about some silly parade by ‘toy soldiers’, not to mention your obsession with every dot and comma! this country would be a much healthier place for our children and young people. I said grow up and I meant it.
lets compare like for like here no one is suggesting the oo should be able to walk where they like,for example if they wanted to walk from suffolk to the shankill via stewartstown road(sorry to those people who dont know belfast)no one and i repeat no one would support this,this however can not be compared to the five minutes it takes the people from ballysillan/oo/bands to pass the ardoyne shops,those people who do know belfast please tell me an alternative route for them to take, please dont say they should take the bus, every time a republican parade makes its way from north belfast to the city centre it passes the bottom of the shankill(browns square)without causing a huge hue and cry,as i say lets have a little like for like.
I visited Dunloy once. The OO hall and Presbyterian Church are a little apart. Each looks very battered. And they are not allowed to parade from one to the other. A strange world!
Why not just do a show every year on BBC1 before the ‘marching season’ commences…half an hour where all the contentious parades are settled one way or another with a heads or tails.’
iluvni
how about something along the lines ofEndurance: The orange sauce and green mustard competition?
see below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0TN3soge9o
Please, nobody mention that the british army allow c*nvicted m*rderers to serve in its ranks, or pipakin might get very cross. :O(
They’re real soldiers and they stand in fucking deserts and stuff.
[b]PAPE MARCHING PLANS ‘RIGHT UP OUR STREET’[/b]
[i]By Orange Culture Correspondent [b]Pope Burns[/b][/i]
Unionists are beside themselves with joy after Catholic extremists revealed that they plan to hold a series of anti-Protestant marches in loyal towns all over Ulster this summer which will culminate in a massive parade up the Shankill Road during which thousands of members of a kick-the-Queen band will saunter past the scene of the Frizzell’s fish shop bombing shouting ‘9 – 1 you black bastards’ whilst waving 9 fingers in the air.
“I very much welcome the parade plans,” said DUP MLA Nelson McCausland, “and even though the organisers of these marches have called anyone with any concerns about the summer parades ‘terrorist scum from the Queen’s cunt,’ I still feel we should stand on the side of the road and hand out tea and biccies to these delightful people as they spit on our faces and piss in our gardens. In fact I also think we should lie down on the ground and let them walk on top of us in case the road wears out the soles of their shoes. And we should probably suck their Catholic penises dry too while we’re at it.” To which the Reverend Wi(…cut…).
Secret Squirrel
I hadnt gone away you know…
The British Army is like any other army and takes what it can get.
You wont find me at Wootton Bassett, you wont even find me watching it on the news. It is not important to me, what is important is my firm belief that every country has the right to show its respect for its military, that means them too.
As for getting cross, at least you didnt complain about my English!
You know I think its really a bit unIrish to be so anti an army so many of us fought and died in. I am proud of Ireland, all of it.
As this desire to march down Garvaghy Road is about domination, it should not be allowed. The removal of the parades commission is bad for Nationalists and will result in local dispute settlements that will in effect be cases of “isolate and abuse” rather than society standing together to prevent this happening.
A sure sign that a march will go down the Garvaghy Road this year is in Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness both stipulating that it cannot do so, while Brendan McKenna is telling us that it will only go down after negotiations with the residents. Clearly Gerry and Martin are getting onside before the capitulation by Brendan. Were Eirigi given something at Hillsborough?
pippakin,I know you are a little bit ‘other worldy’ and that, in itself, is not a bad thing. But what do you think those cornerboys go to Iraq/Afghanistan for? They go to take potshots at wooly heads and wogs, to destroy their infrastructure and to generally abuse people – as they did here. I agree most armies are no better but this is no reason to hero worship them (dead or alive) even – even they stand in BIG deserts with UNIFORMS on. Grow up!
socaire!
It is no reason for us to hate the people who grieve for them either. As for Woolly heads, that sounds a bit racist to me. Im guessing you mean the same ‘woolly heads’ who are responsible for 9/11, 7/7 and who, given half a chance, would force all women to wear a burkha?
You better watch out you almost sounded like a nice, intelligent guy, right up to the last seven words!
Wootton Bassett is strictly non political and largely unofficial, I think we should leave them be. It is their loss not ours.
In the build up to the proprosed wootton bassett 4uk protest a spokesperson for the residents of the town suggested on radio 2s j vine show that if it went ahead they (the residents) would simply close there windows and doors, let it pass of peacefully, and not give 4uk the publicity they desired,we here in ulster could do with a little bit of the small towns dignity.
I thought that the whole thread of this argument was that hateful supporters of (Islamic) terrorism would not be allowed to march through the town that welcomes? the dead home. Were we not trying to draw comparisons with our wee country where the sorry remnants of the adventurers still want to walk where they are detested and any person who objects is trying to foist a system of cultural apartheid on our otherwise decent and tolerant society. I accuse you of being tangential and of deliberate obfuscation for your own shadowy agenda.
Were there not a group of people called Picts who lived in a country called Scotland. Does not history show the Picts were wiped out by invading Celts?
When it comes to these islands history is no place to go fishing.
Wootton Bassett is not a parade, its a funeral procession, note the subtle difference.
Posted by iluvni
” 19.Why not just do a show every year on BBC1 before the ‘marching season’ commences…half an hour where all the contentious parades are settled one way or another with a heads or tails.
Imagine the ratings…. ”
I am going to try to improve on your excellent idea.
Lets get Simon Cowell involved and have a TV show dedicated to contentious Orange Order Parades.
Phone polls, Celebrity Judges, Lets go the whole 9 yards. Louis Walsh, Danni Minogue, Cheryl Cole don’t let this glorious opportunity pass you by.
pippakitten, Wootton Bassett is not a parade, it is a town. The residents, perhaps, justifiably do not want a march through their town by people protesting about the slaughter of their fellow Muslims. The issue is, then, if it is right that offensive parades in a town in England can be ‘discouraged’ by residents then why does this principle not apply to this sectarian sink hole?
Pippakin:Were there not a group of people called Picts who lived in a country called Scotland. Does not history show the Picts were wiped out by invading Celts?
Some woodentop might drift along shortly and start waffling on about Jethro Troll or something….
Maybe.
Anyhow, it’s nice that we all agree that these trouble makers shouldn’t march where they’re not wanted.
)
socaire!
Wootton Bassett is the first town the hearse passes through on its way to the soldiers home. Some British people gather there because they respect their army, regardless of what they think of the war. No politicians, no officials, just people watching a hearse go by.
My instinct is if we ban one parade we should ban, and I for one would be very happy about it, the whole damn lot of em!
Secret Squirrel
As long as the ban does not apply to any fallen Irish soldier and the people who want to show their respect for him. I agree
Mind you if allowing a parade meant we would be closer to a united Ireland, you just hand me that drum!
Yip! Ban them all.
Are there many other places in the world where people are so mad keen for marching and marching where others are equally keen not to have those particular marches there?
Does not history show the Picts were wiped out by invading Celts?
In a word, no it doesn’t.
sdelaneys
No.
Andrew Gallagher
We evidently read different history books.
Funny how history for many is what they want to see.
Pippakin, Islam4Uk march was not a funeral procession.
This boils down to one thing –
Is it more important for the OO to march a route they have walked down for 20 or 30 odd years, or is it more important for them to march along a route where their supporters live and where people who espouse their ideals can view and celebrate this culture.
“You know I think its really a bit unIrish to be so anti an army so many of us fought and died in. I am proud of Ireland, all of it.” – pippakin
On the contrary. It is “unIrish” to support the army that enforces the British state’s denial of the Irish nation’s claim to national self-determination. The idea that it is legitimate for the Irish nation to serve a foreign state that occupies its country is an idea that originates with said foreign state. The conquerors always preach peace to the conquered.
“The issue is, then, if it is right that offensive parades in a town in England can be ‘discouraged’ by residents then why does this principle not apply to this sectarian sink hole?” – socaire
It does. If the residents stir up enough shit, then the parade can be banned on public order grounds. Also, Islam4UK is a prescribed organisation, whereas the OO is not. Why are the DUP expressing support for a prescribed organisation that is banned under the terrorism act? Well, some of their senior members weren’t too shy about that is the past…
If BBC NI can commission shite like that Colin Murphy show, my idea has got to be a runner. Its not quite as shite.
Alias
Irish and British history is interconnected to deny it is to deny the truth. In the second world war many Irish people were fighting Nazis.
Ireland has had great cause for anger but we cannot live in the past it is a very unhealthy place. It is time we moved on and to do that we must embrace the truth, all of it, not just the bits that suit us. It should be a source of great pride that there were Irish people fighting in two world wars. It should be and when it is we will have recovered from all the hurt.
I’m well aware of the history. However, you seem to think that history gives the UK some claim to ownership of Irish destinies or that it renders illegitimate a right to national self-determination, a nation-state, and renders legitimate the very British notion that the Irish nation should be loyal to a British state and serve as cannon fodder for its wars.
Alias
Are you dreaming? when have I ever suggested such a thing?
I am saying the British have the right to mourn a dead soldier. In a small town in England if that is what they wish.
I am saying Islam 4UK tried to hijack a funeral procession to gain a bit of cheap publicity and whats more they succeeded!
In addition, and just for you, I will say it is time for us to let go of the past. The OOs in the north are, like it or not, Irish.
pippakin,
The number of instances in history where any population was “wiped out” by an invading force are few compared to the number of cases where one ruling class replaced another. In the case of Scotland, the Picts’ language died out shortly after being conquered by the Scots, but the population didn’t go anywhere. Most modern historians also believe that the Picts were themselves a Celtic culture.
Andrew Gallagher
I forgot to mention, and oddly enough so did you, that the invading ‘Scots’ were said to have come from Ireland.
The language was not the only thing said to have died out.
The Picts may very well have been a ‘Celtic culture’. what difference does that make.
As I said, in these islands history is no place to go fishing.