Jim Allister the latest prophet
How fascinating to see Jim Allister paying into rising expectations of a deal. He characterises J&P thus:
I must, therefore, warn unionists to prepare for a catastrophic roll-over by the DUP on meeting Sinn Féin’s strategic demand of ending British control of
policing and justice – the two most potent symbols of sovereignty in any nation.
So Jim has been an integrationist all along! But take a look at Scotland Jim, with its separate legal system lasting several centuries before the SNP devolved government. Scotland was still in the UK when I last looked . And note too that the NI judicial system peaks in the UK Supreme Court in Parliament Square Westminster, and that the Tories are pledging to introduce a Sovereignty bill to reaffirm the supremacy of Parliament he longs to sit in. So relax Jim, life is good.
ok, so a quadruple lock, then MU?
Blue Hammer,
without prisoner release there would not have been an IRA ceasefire, I presume you are aware of that and you would have preferred for the British government to have implemented a beefed up security policy instead?
No-one in any political party totally agrees with every other member. Your criticism of Jim Allister on that basis is ridiculous – he leads a party, not a junta (he leaves that to the SF/DUPe politbureau).
Posted by Blue Hammer on Jan 13, 2010 @ 07:47 PM
what a load of meaningless waffle Jim allister preaches this and that and the fact is he allister refused to take action against A TUV party member who petioned for the release of one of the most ruthless sectarian killers of the troubles thats a fact.The TUV member went on to say that he thought Torrens knight was and i quote a good lad.So Jim allister QC refused to take any action folks but preaches to others how to act and behave.WEll allister has being found out and should held in contempt for his lack of action against one of his own party members
Kevsterino,
so far.
No Paul
My conscience is clear because i don’t support the release of ANY prisoners, and in 1998 i voted accordingly so the likes of Knight and Kelly etc are not free in my name.
I am not a member of the TUV, but I am a potential TUV voter. As I said above, no-one in any political party can reasonably be expected to totally agree with every other member. Does everyone in SF agree with its stance on policing? Are the dissenters drummed out?
I disagree with the attempts to free Knight, but am happy that anyone has the right to argue for whatever they wish.
No response to my question?
Not so clever on the old chronology there MU.
1st ceasefire 1994, 2nd ceasefire 1996. GFA 1998.
So the ceasefire happened before the GFA. So are you suggesting that a GFA with no prisoner releases would have led to a resumption of SF/IRA murder campaign?
Interesting concept – “ending” your campaign of violence, and then using the threat of violence to achieve your goals. I thought we couldn’t allow that in our shiny new NI.
Blue,
Your whole perspective here is a narrow view of our problems here. Paramilitarism and the problems that flow from it is not as simple as catching and jailing the people who engage in it.
It’s fair enough to argue that a man who once held or used a gun or planted a bomb should not be allowed into office. But if you’re going to argue that, then on what basis should the men who stood beside those who held the guns be allowed to hold office ? Would paramilitarism even exist in the first place if there were not people who provided them with (unseen) support and succour ?
“The DUP stated they would not do a deal on Police and Justice without UUP support. ”
I wonder if they are regretting that? It seems odd to hold onesself to ransom by a rival.
CS
You mean like the time Naomi Long (Alliance’s deputy leader) gave documents to Dawn Purvis the PUP (UVF front) leader?
Or is that different?
Having dealings, and to some extent a shared objective, with paramilitaries, while at the same time condemning their paramilitary activities is significantly different than acting as a front for or defender of the self same paramilitaries.
None of them should have been released. Shame on you for thinking otherwise.
PIRA didnt just turn up at the GFA negotations and hope for the best, there would not have been any ceasefires unless they were promised the releases and they would not have stuck to the ceasefires if they han not got the prisoner releases. Our government had mapped out the way forward with PIRA long before the non violent politicians were invited to sign up.
In the current ‘negotiations’ SF expect delivery of Police and Justice and are still cashing in their chips form the ceasefire with our government still coughing up by pressurising the DUP. The strength of the DUP arguement that they didnt sign up to a deadline in the STA is simply ignored as SF continue to get their way, with even the shadow SOS seemingly joining in the fun.
Unionists need to unite and ditch the sectarian baggage rather than fighting between ourselves to have any chance of influencing our own government’s policy. The appointment of Ms Foster looks like a good first step.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/foyle_and_west/8393317.stm
Jim Alister, in the article cited in post #11, says the following while justifying the party member he claims to disagree with:
“There are people released from jail who were convicted of crimes in which people died and today they sit in our government.”
What does that have to do with Mr. Knight? Is Jim indulging in a bit of moral equivocation here?
Why can’t folks see through this?
Kev
What it is is Mr Allister nailing the lie that Loyalist murderers are in some way worse than Republican murderers. Interestingly, in the article quoted, the SDLP’s Dallat comments (accurately i would add) that the likes of Knight should remain in prison.
Markedly, he does not suggest similar treatment for others of a different persuasion. Did he complain when St John Hume legitimised Gerry Adams in the early 90s, given Adams’ “interesting” background in the Belfast Brigade of PIRA. Jean McConville or Bloody Friday anyone?
How can it be right for one to be painted the big bad wolf when others are exhonerated? They are ALL big bad wolves!
Still no response from Paul on his view on murderer releases??
#
Jim Alister, in the article cited in post #11, says the following while justifying the party member he claims to disagree with:
“There are people released from jail who were convicted of crimes in which people died and today they sit in our government.”
What does that have to do with Mr. Knight? Is Jim indulging in a bit of moral equivocation here?
Why can’t folks see through this?
Posted by Kevsterino on Jan 13, 2010 @ 08:36 PM
The fact is allister preaches about morals but when allister is tested hes failed to take any action against a fellow TUV party colleague its an utter disgrace.And shows allisters judgement is clearly questionable and the evidence is there for all to see.
Whether you necessarily agree with his views or not (and personally I don’t) Mr Alister is only holding the ground which the DUP used to occupy so it’s a bit odd that any DUP member or supporter can see their way to criticise his views as after all it’s not long ago since it was also theirs!
Slug,
“I wonder if they are regretting that? It seems odd to hold onesself to ransom by a rival. ”
Tactically I think it was a good move by effectively signaling to the UUP that they could not be outflanked by the UUP adopting a more anti-agreement position, and if the Assembly duly collapsed they could at least share the ‘blame’ with UUP. Unionist disunity as ever, never far from the surface, with SF laughing all the way to the elections.
Blue,
Is it not “whataboutery”?
more antics on Allister and the TUV.folks see blow
Dictatorship’ claims as TUV man resigns – Belfast Today
Kev
To an extent, yes.
Blue Hammer,
Can you give me an example to back up your statement,
“Dawn Purvis the PUP (UVF front) leader?”
“Unionists need to unite and ditch the sectarian baggage rather than fighting between ourselves”
Posted by Moderate Unionist on Jan 13, 2010 @ 08:21 PM
Isn’t this a bit of a contradiction in terms? Or are you talking in shades of sectarianism? A more socially acceptable version?
Straying dangerously towards a them versus us argument.
Stephen
Are you claiming that the PUP is not a front for the UVF?
Catch a grip.
Blue Hammer,
The Progressive Unionist Party are not a front for the UVF. I thought they were at one time too until I debated political points with a PUP work colleague.
Maybe if some people started listening to what Dawn Purvis says instead of stereotyping and making assumptions then statements like yours will not be seen as often.
ok
and SF aren’t a front for PIRA
The PUP has ALWAYS had links with the UVF. Like David Ervine? Or Billy Hutchinson? And per its own website continues to have such links.
It debated ending its “special relationship” with the UVF in October 2005 but this was defeated in a closed vote at the party’s annual conference.
If there is no relationship, then why vote not to end it?
Blue Hammer,
I cannot speak for the PUP but it is my understanding that people like the Late David Ervine worked with the UVF/RHC to persuade them that guns and killing was not the answer to Northern Ireland’s future.
The debate in 2005 was comfirmation that the PUP would not give up their goal of taking more guns out of circulation in NI. Staying close to the UVF/RHC helped to draw them closer to a peaceful path.
The PIRA were a strain of the republican movement and Sinn Fein was another stain of the same movement and different to the PUP.
Oh yes, the failed UVF bomber David Ervine. Mates with UVF double-killer Billy Hutchinson. Fine examples of the PUP not being a front for the UVF.
This is like watching a car crash. Or perhaps pile-up is more appropriate.
However, NI politicians are no less despicable than those in any other country. So that’s okay then.
Blue Hammer,
The two people you mentioned went to Long Kesh and did their time and they also learnt that there was a better way. When they were released they spend their time trying to teach people that they had more in common with the “enemy” than they realised.
The Late David Ervine was labeled a “Lundy” and a “Traitor” for daring to talk peace with republicans. People like this took great risks to move our two tribes away from violence.
I tend to think about a young innocent lad like like Thomas Devlin at this time, not Hutchinson.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7053993.stm
Brian,
In your intro to this thread you cite Jim Allister’s concerns over a DUP deal on P&J.
It might have been helpful to quote the TUV leader’s cautionary quotation including the Sinn Fein goal.
“”Sadly, the DUP, petrified of an election, is preparing to put party before country by surrendering to Sinn Fein’s key “Brits Out” demand over policing and justice. In their last parliamentary manifesto they made it’s strategic importance to the republican movement very clear:
“Our strategy is for a new all-Ireland policing and justice system. That cannot be achieved without the transfer of policing and justice powers away from London, into an Executive and Assembly and the all-Ireland institutions.”
Perhaps you can explain the benefits of urgent devolution of policing and justice powers Brian? A family in Randalstown would love to hear your desk bound rationale.