The year the shinners died
I had been trying to work on a republican focused review of 2009, there is no point. No point looking at how the myriad of ‘dissenting’ republican groups are progressing, no point looking at how armed struggle is going, no point looking at the touts or agents, no point in examining successes or failures.
For republicanism five six words show the year that was:
“traitors to the island of Ireland” – Martin McGuinness
Thats SF judgment on republican volunteers that kill members of the British Army and police force.
With those few words SF eventually ended any connection with republicanism or revolutionary politics and finally became a full party of the British state
The only moment of the year for me.
What i find hard to believe, is why unionists have such loyalty to a government that has openly expressed the 6 counties no longer serve the needs of the British Population.
‘We have no further political, economic or strategic need for Northern Ireland’
I think unionists should wake up and smell the coffee. Unionists live on this false belief that they are loved and the priority of the British Monarchy and her Government.
You should take comfort from the truth, which is Republicans welcome Protestants and unionists to a 32 county state.
As for the statement regarding the clerical abuse, which is downright appalling.
Turgon:
‘I think if you are the parent of a young child there is also quite a lot to fear.’
The Murphy report has ensured nothing of the sort will happen EVER again.
Quote:
‘Political revolution’….that gave me a laugh. A revolution under Unionist control. How is it going? The 11+, the ILA, workers rights? Some revolution – the Brits gave more when in direct control than SF are managing with their ‘political revolution’
Unionist control? Are you actually serious?
Do you understand the term ‘mandatory power-sharing’?
What i find funny, is the fact a IRA OC Volunteer who left school at 15 is the Joint First Minister. That is correct-IRA/Sinn Féin have a veto on every Unionist proposition.
Who says terrorism gets you nowhere?
Guest,
I think you may be making progress though I am afraid the syntax makes it a bit hard to understand what you are saying. I know that all may sound patronising but actually I do mean it. However, you state “I have said that the responsibility lies with all of us”
It simply does not. I bear no responsibility for the murders here, nor do most nationalists. Just as an innocent priest cannot be fairly tarred with the paedophile brush because some priests were perverts. If you personally committed no violence and opposed it then you have noting to apologise for in terms of the Troubles. It is as simple as that.
I see that you are sorry for everyone who died. Indeed I agree. I am sorry it ever happened. I said a long time ago and still feel that if unionists accepting a united Ireland would have avoided the deaths I would have supported it. Now I do not believe that would have avoided violence and I must admit that the recent paedophile thing makes me even more glad I am not in the RoI. However, I do not think that anything which has been won or lost here in NI in the last fifty years was worth a single human life.
I do think that nationalists and republicans do need to understand that most unionists even those who support the current arrangements will never accept SF’s bone fides: not whilst they contain those who murdered their kith and kin.
I know a number of slightly older than me unionists who argue convincingly that but for the IRA campaign there might well have been a united Ireland. Many younger unionists like myself seem more opposed to a UI than them and I think it is very possible that we will pass that opposition on to our children. That is one of the legacies of Adams, McGuinness et al: the copper fastening of unionists’ views; that and the graves across our churchyards. I suspect, however, that with their positions of power Adams, McGuiness and the rest do not really care. People who were willing to climb over the bodies of their comrades; tricking them into a horrible death by suicide to launch their political careers are unlikely to care much about increasing division.
Eoin,
“The Murphy report has ensured nothing of the sort will happen EVER again.”
I am sorry but I simply do not accept that. Which priests have been arrested, prosecuted and gaoled? Which bishops have had the same for conspiracy to pervert the course of justice / withholding information etc.? Which Gardai members have been prosecuted for the same?
Considering the sheer scale of the abuse it is inconceivable that members of the Irish establishment, government and judiciary did not know what was happening; some most likely were abused and what did they do? Nothing.
I am sorry but to say that one report means it will never happen again is unbelievable naivety. In addition even if it were true I suspect you can see why as the parent of two young boys I would not willingly allow them to grow up under a state which seemed to connive and tolerate such systematic and monstrous perversion.
Just as the IRA murdered their way away from a united Ireland; some of Ireland’s priests seem to have abused their way in the same direction.
Guest,
Pay no attention to my last post. That was simply me being silly. No offence meant and I hope none taken.
Eoin,
“What i find hard to believe, is why unionists have such loyalty to a government that has openly expressed the 6 counties no longer serve the needs of the British Population.”
I have no loyalty to governments. You think I feel any loyalty to the like of Tony Blair? I do, however, have loyalty to my nation, and that is the British nation. I’m actually quite proud to belong to it. I like its secular nature, its intolerance of child rapists and the clerics who aid and abet them.
I know I keep on returning to that last, but until the Irish get their act together and move against the dog-collared criminals in their midst they will continue to alienate themselves from me and so many others.
Guest,
That’s very interesting stuff. Many thanks for the heads-up. I’ll certainly read it at my leisure.
I can’t really comment on it here as I’ve no wish to disrupt the thread. One item caught my attention however.
According to the CEP various powers now held by the UK would be devolved to an English parliament. They list defence among “reserved” matters, i.e. stuff that England could not and should not engage in alone.
But how would this work? They tell me the whole of the UK is prosecuting a war in Afghanistan because of the terrorist threat to Britain. Fair enough, but leaving aside that botched bombing of Glasgow airport by the mad medics, isn’t it England that’s at most risk? So in the event of a devolved English parliament, how would that work if, say, Wales was threatened instead?
But as I say those are matters for another day and another thread.
Eoin wrote:”You should take comfort from the truth, which is Republicans welcome Protestants and unionists to a 32 county state.”
Even more jam tomorrow! The Republic that you are so proud of, Eoin, has had 80 years to create the pluralist secular state which you say “welcomes” non-Catholics. 80 years. And what have we got? What really exists now (as distinct from your idealistic hand-waving gestures)? A deeply Catholic state which in its recent introduction of a blasphemy law (????!!!) shows that it has zero understanding of the principles of secularism. A Catholic state which exports its rape victims to the UK for abortions (after prolonging the agony by preventing victims from leaving the country).
Why would any unionist listen to your tales of an imaginary secular 32-county republic when we have seen the reality of Catholic control for the last 80 years? Catch yourself on!
The decent thing to do, after all the murders and bombings which were intended to drive us into a 32-county chaos by brute force, is for republicans to go away and create a 26-county pluralist secular republic and then INVITE the North to join it. Don’t give us any more froth about secular pie in the sky and the 1916 Fenian Fantasy, etc. Just do it. Make a secular 26-county republic and then you will have some evidence of your good intentions that we can believe.
It would be a good year if it is the last year that anyone died for Ireland/Northern Ireland/Britain.
With the knowledge/education that most of us have, are any of the above entities worth a single human being dying or even being seriously injured for.
Too many are willing to fight to the last drop of some one elses blood.
Is any of it worth your own life or the life of one of your own children. If you are not willing to sacrifice yourself or your children then please refrain from Sabre Rattling.
Seems a bit pointless to be commenter no 77, but what the hey. At the risk of repeating what’s already been said in the previous 76 posts and referring to Mark’s opening contribution, I would like to note the following…
The dissidents were contravening the IRA Army Council diktat not to pursue military operations at the present time. And since in Sinn Fein philosophy the IRA Army Council is the de jure government of the island of Ireland, McGuiness’ statement was absolutely logical, consistent and not at all remarkable. I would have hoped the navel gazers expounding at length here would have grasped that simple fact, but it seems we’re still in love with constructive ambiguity around these parts.
As others have pointed out, resistance to British rule can take many forms, not just booby trapping and sniping. Currently, IRA “influenced” areas particularly in Norn-Iron but also to an extent in the costa provo in Donegal and Ferris controlled North Kerry are engaging in passive aggressive non-compliance, non-engagement and non-cooperation with authority to undermine the ruling state. Preferring to submit instead to republican established “community” bodies and justice. This parallel, de facto ruling system is the festering sore which will continue to exacerbate mistrust, segregation and sectarianism in particular in Northern Ireland.
So while the commentariat continue to write books, articles and generally congratulate themselves that the IRA has decided it was no longer convenient to booby trap and snipe, the real world moves on and the crucial battle for the hearts and minds, not necessarily of the unionist, but of the catholic, man united following, xfactor watching working joe is being lost. To those with influence who care about that I say: get up off yer arses and started countering the romanticists or condemn another generation to insular, regressive stasis.
Guest said
“the logic of your argument is that the IRA had the right to claim that they were right,or leastways that they had the right to sabre rattle.I belive that this is wrong.”
I believe that the logic of my argument is that life experience/events/education and some interaction with those of differnt opinions than my own have convinced me that none of the entities of Ireland/Britain/Northern Ireland are worth the lives of myself or any of my children or the lives of any one else or their children.
I have not always held these views but what is the point of getting older if one is not getting smarter.
Democrat
So living in “secular Britain” is much better than the “Catholic theocracy” that is Ireland?
Might you be able to tell me in which state there is an Established church? And in which state the head of state is always the head of same church? And in which state the Prime Minister may not profess a certain religion? And which state has 26 bishops in its Upper House?
Ireland has already had two Protestant presidents in its short existence (two and a half if you count Mary Robinson). I eagerly await the next Catholic King of England. Protestants occupy many top positions in Irish public life in gross disproportion to their small population (the current DPP and many of the judiciary for example). Indeed four of the “Big Five” law firms in Dublin were founded by Protestants and continue to expound a Protestant ethos, with many Protestant partners (although thankfully they now admit Catholics).
Guest,
Republicans could begin by specifically apologising for all the murders they committed. They could state to the absolute best of their knowledge who committed each murder. Here in Fermanagh we could be told who planned, made, planted etc. the Enniskillen bomb and the same for the failed one at Tullyhommon. They could tell us who murdered each of the people they murdered here; why each Protestant family forced out was forced out etc.
Yes that would be difficult, yes it would involve pain it might involvement imprisonment but it would be the very beginnings of showing to unionists that republicans were serious.
From where I was brought up the same could be done about Claudy and all the other atrocities. In addition I would like the collusion between the RoI state and the IRA to be fully admitted to.
Now that may be whataboutery and nationalists can legitimately point to loyalist murders. I for one would like to hear about who committed various loyalist murders. In addition I would have no problem hearing about collusion by the British state. However, the point is you asked what unionists might ask of republicans and initially a full and frank admission of the who, what, why, when and where of the murder campaign would be beneficial.
In no way, however, should republicans expect that such revelations would bring them closer to a united Ireland; I suspect they would lessen the chances of such. For many (?most) of my generation there is absolutely nothing republicans could ever do to make me want a united Ireland or feel even remotely Irish. Republicans destroyed that with every single murder. In addition realistically unless my children reject everything we teach them (which is entirely their right) they will be brought up to regard themselves as British and not remotely Irish.
What such from republicans would do is begin (and only begin) to make unionists think about trusting republicans when they say they want to rid themselves of their maladies.
I am sorry but for republicans of your generation you might get a united Ireland by demographics (thought I doubt it) but you will never get an Ireland in which the unionist / British / Protestant population feel united to your state. That is the poisoned legacy which in large measure Adams, McGuinness, Kelly and the rest have handed to you. I sort of feel sorry for you if you truly want a united people. However, I am afraid I feel more sorry for my neighbours and in laws with their graves to tend and the empty spaces around the table this Christmas.
You did ask and that would still leave our overwhelming reservations about the nature of the RoI; reservations which have massively increased in the last few weeks for obvious reasons.
Guest,
You asked me what I thought republicans could do to rid themselves of their maladies. I told you. Had you not wanted my opinion on the matter you should not have asked for it.
It’s all fine and well saying we’re British and Irish and whatever.
Already those terms mean different things to different people.
British: a Sudanese asylum-seeker with a new UK passport living in a Plaistow hostel.
Irish: claimed Cindy McCain during the US Presidential election.
And God knows who will claim what in 20 years time.
Change is certain.
Aldamir, you miss the point of the Plantations: to plant a [i]different[/i] nation within the state. Massive confiscations of land by the British state from the indigenous nation and the importation of three other nations to whom the confiscated land was granted tends not to be done by that state to promote peace and harmony between all four nations but tends, rather obviously, to have the opposite outcome. The Plantations and the Penal Laws resulted in – go figure – mass uprisings by the displaced and disenfranchised nation against the state that had displaced and disenfranchised them.
How could the imported nations have asked redemption from the aggrieved nation? Perhaps by petitioning the British state to return the land to that nation that was stolen from them or by demanding the repeal of the Penal Laws? Perhaps by I wonder why they didn’t like that option? Perhaps it was because they rather enjoyed being a privileged social class and the bonus packages of free land weren’t too bad either?
There could never be reconciliation between Catholics and Protestants here because the latter group were promoted by the British state while the former group were discriminated against by that state. The gains of the latter group came at the direct expense of the losses of the former group. This was zero-sum engineering where one group advanced by being loyal to the British state and the other group was only there to enrich the Protestant Ascendancy.
Indeed, why would the imported nations ever want to ‘turn native’ and thereby receive the suffering that was inflicted on the indigenous nation by the British state? It was only when nations could no longer be put to the sword at the whim of monarchs did some Protestants look at what their state had done to the Irish nation and begin to say that this was a great injustice upon another nation.
But that was then and this is now…
We now have this connection between religion and nationhood, such that most Protestants are Unionists and most Catholics are Nationalists. I take the view that if they are loyal to the British state then they are British. Obviously, British is a nation that is comprised of members of other nations, but they can get around that by declaring themselves Ulstermen or Northern Irish. That’s fine by me since neither label makes the claim that an Irishman is someone who is loyal to a foreign state. It is an invention of the British state that another nation should be loyal to the state of the nation that has colonised it.
In regard to unity between these two nations of Irish and British: why? I have no intention of ever voting for two nations to compete for control of one state, nor do I have any intention of colluding with any sinister and repugnant attempt to commit cultural genocide against either nation by attempting to engineer those two distinct and great nations into one. The proper function of the state is to protect and to promote the culture of the nation – not to engineer its destruction. Any government that attempted this in earnest (and the Irish state is getting dangerously close to this agenda by stealth) should be destroyed by the nation it seeks to betray.
My view is that if Unionists don’t want to live within an Irish nation-state then I’m not going to force them to. To be honest, who wants them? Nobody I know has ever expressed the view to me that they simply cannot live as a nation without this group among them. That is not to disparage Unionists – it is just to express the view that most of us in Ireland couldn’t care less about unity. Under international law, no nation is entitled to two states.
As Great Britain will continue to exist independently of Northern Ireland, the claim of the British nation in that territory to self-determination would not be removed if Northern Ireland ceased to exist. The exercise of that right would be removed however. But if they felt they couldn’t live without the exercise of self-determination then they have the option of living within Great Britain. So morally and legally they have no right to the territory of Northern Ireland (in my view but not in the view of the overwhelming majorities in two sovereign jurisdictions obviously) but they do have the benefit of being a rather large and unmanageable number, so if they want a separate state on the island of Ireland in which to have a second ‘homeland’ and exercise their right to self-determination then they can have it. My agenda is a fair repartition and nothing more.
Turgon, I think this post to Aldamir also addresses your post, so we may have to disagree about why most Protestants are Unionists and not Irish nationalists.
Alas Alias,
All your talk about nations is only a short step away from racism. No doubt you think of yourself as a pure specimen of the nation – why not declare yourself a pure specimen of your race while you are at it? And denounce all us mongrels in terms of nations and races as outsiders and inferior to the Chosen People.
Your history is so much bunk too. Claptrap on a foundation of claptrap. The Plantation was simply an attempt by Britain to solve the problem of a dangerous traitor at its back. When England (later Britain) turned Protestant in 1530, it was threatened by a Catholic country at its back. The Protestant revolution was insecure and in danger of following in the footsteps of the Cathars who had rebelled against the Vatican earlier and been exterminated. So Catholic Ireland, which was allied to England’s enemies, France and Spain, as was shown clearly during the Spanish attack in 1588, had to be rendered safe – hence the attempt to Protestantise the Irish and to seed the country with Protestant settlers. Nothing personal, just a by-product of the Wars of Religion which ravaged all of Europe for much of 300 years.
I am glad there was a Protestant revolution. I do not believe any religious mythology myself, but I see the Vatican empire as a far greater threat to secularism and free thought than the civic society which Protestantism produced. The Vatican empire has been a huge obstacle to the advance of enlightenment and progress – and it still is. It is on a par with Islam. You can work out who are the equivalent of the Taliban for yourself.
Guest, please don’t (maliciously or otherwise) misrepresent what I wrote.
In case you really don’t get it, let me be clear: there is no fight for Irish independence, since Ireland is already as contentedly independent as can reasonably be expected in a small open economy in an open trade world.
Flag-waving, ballad-singing nationalism is no longer relevant outside of Sky Sports and the eurovision. The only “fight” is a woolly romantic one in the heads of those that lost the booby trap and sniper campaign.
Which is hardly the previous experience and expertise to recommend one for the job of leading a community into a future of peace, integration and prosperity, now is it? And what do you get when you appoint people to positions of responsibility who are wholly unsuited to the job?
That’s right. Mistrust, segregation, regression. No meaningful economic activity. Stalled living standards. Limited opportunity for advancement. All that bad stuff.
When it comes down to it, that is decidely not what “the people” want.
So my issue is with the commentators who don’t seem too bothered that while this nonsense is going on, another generation of academic, professional and entrepreneurial potential is stifled or shipped abroad for the betterment of others. *shrug* Maybe they like it that way.