Comments on: Crilly charged with Nairac murder

By: fine

fine — Tue, 17 Nov 2009 05:10:44 +0000

“And does “undefeated” mean “unconditionally surrendered after wasting 30 odd years pointlessly murdering lots of people and ensuring a continued reactive campaign by the UVF and UDA”?”

Loyalists had been murdering since 1966 and their murder spree was anything but reactive.

By: Freddie

Freddie — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 02:37:50 +0000

How easily the victims of IRA murder squads can be labeled, and all on the word of a nutter and someone who was a child at the time.

By: Ramzi Nohra

Ramzi Nohra — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 02:21:06 +0000

well OK we arent going to agree.
re the udr, you are probably right. What frazer called a “special forces unit” would i believe be called “loyalist dealth squad” in common parlance.

By: Freddie

Freddie — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 00:45:27 +0000

Hi Ramzi,

So the two main sources of information which accuses Nairac of wrongdoing come from someone who was committed to a mental institution, and someone who was a child at the time. Anyone with any knowledge of the UDR will tell you that they did not form a part of any Special Forces units. Indeed they were prevented from doing so by law.

No I am not saying that is the motivation of Frazer and Holroyd at all. I am saying that is the motivation of republican commentators on the matter.

By: Ramzi Nohra

Ramzi Nohra — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 22:46:19 +0000

Hi freddie
No, I believe he resigned from the army. MI6 had him institutionalised for a bit. I’ve read Holroyd’s book and seen him interviewed numerous times. I find him convincing. He did not come across as bitter at the army – nor indeed with Nairac. I dont think there is any independent evidence of mental problems.

As an aside, you may want to look at what happened to Colin Wallace (ie framed for murder) for making allegations at the same time.

Frazer’s father was in the UDR, and, according to willie a member of some special forces unit. He was killed by the ira. I have seen a quote by him implying that Nairac set up his father. Hardly proof of course, but he was connected to events.

However you were talking about smears arising as a result of his “effective counter IRA operations”. Are you saying that is the motivation of frazer and holroyd?

By: Freddie

Freddie — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:54:18 +0000

Ramzi,

Holroyd was kicked out of the army after suffering a mental breakdown. Something he denied he was suffering from, and something which left him embittered against the army. Hardly a trustworthy source.

Willie Frazer was a child when Nairac was murdered. What makes him a reliable source in your view and do you value all of his opinions as highly as you view his opinions on Nairac?

By: Ramzi Nohra

Ramzi Nohra — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:06:37 +0000

thats right freddie. Smears emanating from such well known provos as Willie Frazer and Fred Holroys.

And indeed the provos referred to him as a “brave soldier” (or some such) in a statement.

By: Freddie

Freddie — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 16:40:58 +0000

Dave,

If Tim Pat Coogan is your source then I would suggest that you consider attempting to find another who is not quite so biased. What witness accounts did he quote btw?

I don’t see that I am in any bind at all. The eyewitnesses themselves claimed to be drunk. None of them claimed that Captain Nairac had been put through a sausage machine. For that little tit bit you rely on the Provo ‘historian’ Coogan.

Quite a lot of rubbish has been written about Nairac. Pretty much none of it from credible sources. (see Sean McEntee’s above) Suffice to say that the guy was sufficiently effective in counter IRA operations to warrant forty years of smear stories.

By: Sean McEntee

Sean McEntee — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 15:25:56 +0000

Dave

It seems like a right tangled web. In Secret History of the Ira, who is being alleged to have been a Brit agent/informer? McGuinness and/or Adams?

Nairac went to England’s poshest Catholic school and then started playing Biggles in South Armagh, where the details are sketchy. It defies belief that South Armagh locals would not know IRA volunteers closer to hand.

Nairac worked with the Jackal, with the Dublin bombers and with Gordon Kerr?

Was Wille Frazer ever “active” or is he just a big mouth?

By: quizzically disturbed

quizzically disturbed — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:38:23 +0000

“Robert nairac went to England’s poshest school”

er, certainly worth a death sentence ….

are commenting justifying Nairac’s murder going to be allowed to remain? part of the new slugger slant I take it?

By: Dave

Dave — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 07:32:55 +0000

One other point, Freddie, since you modified your original argument that only eye-witnesses can know what occurred to claiming that knowledge doesn’t have to be first-hand but can indeed be second-hand if the eye-witnesses are deemed credible, perhaps you would like to elaborate on your knowledge that the eye-witnesses were drunk and therefore not credible? Were you there, Freddie, and observed the eye-witnesses drinking or are you satisfied that those who claim to have observed the drinking are credible witnesses? It seems that you are in an awkward bind.

By: ernie

ernie — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 06:30:49 +0000

There was a photo of him in unifrom on the falls road ,there is a few storys about where his body ender up ,mince meat ,fed to pigs ,got beating up by a group drunks [ almost got away ] then shot and put in a unknow grave in bogs just some storys floating about .

By: Dave

Dave — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 06:28:17 +0000

(it is [i]a priori[/i] and [b]not[/b] [i]a posteriori[/i])*

Sausage*

By: Dave

Dave — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 06:26:11 +0000

Freddie, how Abraham Lincoln died and and who killed him was not verified by this observer (it is a priori and a posteriori), relying on third-party witness accounts. You implied that knowledge must be [i]a posteriori[/i] to be valid. I simply pointed out that epistemology is a broader church.

As for the sausgage mixer, the source is Tim Pat Coogan.

By: Freddie

Freddie — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 06:13:25 +0000

How Abraham Lincoln died is established historical fact. According to you we only have the word of a few drunken semi republicans, and a paralytic Provo to go by with regards to Captain Robert Nairac GC. Where did they state hat he had been ‘put through a sausage mincer’? I was under the impression that the fate of his body remained a mystery. Like those of so many others who had the misfortune to encounter the brutality of Irish republicanism.

By: paddy

paddy — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 06:07:07 +0000

dave wat about smoke signals r brail ure in 1 dont be kicking the dog

By: paddy

paddy — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 06:05:48 +0000

dave wat about smoke signals r brail ure in 1 dont be kicking the dog

By: Dave

Dave — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 05:57:51 +0000

Okay… that’s it. I will never again reply to anyone who communicates in text-speak!

By: Dave

Dave — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 05:56:35 +0000

No, and I didn’t witness the assassination of Abraham Lincoln either but I nevertheless accept that he died from a bullet wound from the pistol of John Wilkes Booth. Your point?

By: paddy

paddy — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 05:55:41 +0000

dave how do u no he was put through a sauage mincer u must bring this info to the police according to conor murphy british mp who doesnt agree wif his best friend being arrested for fraud tell him he can tell his best mates in the psni