I don’t think the wearing of the poppy has to be a universal act of remembrance either, but someone else did, and they asked Turgon the question. I was just interested in Turgon’s thoughts on that question, given his strong Christian background.

You’re quite right, the iPhone doesn’t convey nuance very well, and my opening line was a bit of a bollocks. My genuine apologies, up too early, and I shall remind myself of that when I post again. (slaps self on wrist).

I didn’t think then, nor do I now, that you were attacking him, but I also don’t think that the act of wearing the poppy has to be a universal act of remembrance, though of course it can be.

As an aside, I don’t see what being a Christian has to do with anything.

Thanks for your quite condescending post.If you took the time to read my post, then surely you can see that I was merely asking Turgon to respond to a question put to him by another poster. I also wanted to make it clear that I wasn’t attacking him in any way. If that wasn’t clear enough, then I apologise to you, personally, for my ‘mewling little piety feat.’ Now, back to that life….

Whilst not wishing to interfere with your mewling little piety feat with an Turgon, perhaps you’d accept that an individual decides to engage in an act of remembrance for reasons which are personal, internal and subjective. I, for instance, wear my poppy to remember innocent victims of conflict and British and Allied forces from 1914 to the present day, with a heavy focus on the latter. I certainly don’t wear it for people who died in the pursuit of political objectives opposed to the UK and her interests. Frankly, sod them.

I don’t think that makes me a bad person, or that I’m missing the point of the poppy, whatever subjective rationale you may wish to attach to the poppy on my lapel. Being thoroughly politically consistent is very rarely pretty for the onloooker.

Does it mean I’m politicising the poppy? For myself, absolutely, but I don’t seek to prescribe reasons for other people to wear it. They do it for different reasons, and good luck to them.

Some German footsoldiers fought bravely and within the laws of war in various theatres acrosss Europe and beyond. They were conscripts and some opposed Hitlers anti-semitism, his aggressive war, and may have been supporters of Social Democrats or even Communists. I have no problem commemorating their deaths. Nor the deaths of German civillians who were killed in bombing raids etc.

Other “ordinary” German footsoldiers raped women, tortured and mudered civillians and committed other war crimes. In many cases they did so deliberately / voluntarily and under no compulsion or threat. Of couse I cannot and wouldn’t commemorate or honour such people. Whether Hitler pulled a trigger or not is immaterial to his moral guilt.

I totally reject your contention that “Unless you publicly divorce yourself from the action of your government then it is presumed that you support them”. Apart from the absurdity of expecting people to go around “publicly” identifying every policy and action they disagree with this is very arbitrary given that many people in most countries, probably the majority, did not vote for the government. Even for governments and policies that are supported this does not mean each and every action is supported – I supported the invasion of Iraq does not mean that I supported or bear responsibility for the murder or rape of civillians by British soldiers (any more than wanting the Red Army to defeat the Wehrmacht implies any support for war crimes committed by its soliders which were tolerated or even encoured by the command). Furthermore there is a difference (which I am trying to convey to Fin) in the level of responsibility for a crime which one participates in and which one supporters. To take a different example to the SF one, imagine a murderous racist attack supported by local Neo-Fascists who cheer when they hear of it. The latter are clearly scum but no one holds them guilty of the murder or expects that they should be imprisoned for life along with the perpetrator.

You absolutely can and must support a la carte. Human beings organise and operate through collective entities, political parties, pressure groups, charities and Trade Unions. It is a good, sensible and neccesary way of organising but inevitably there will be things that you do not agree with. In some circumstances you may take public action and other times you wont but it would be ridiculous to resign from the organistion in view of one disagreement. I have profound disagreements with Labour Party policy on, for example, the fox hunting ban and religious hatred laws, but I am not doing to resign my membership. This does not make me responsible for those policies.

See the attached article for some further enlightenment on what it means and does not mean to “support”.

http://normblog.typepad.com/normblog/2009/11/proisrael.html

I personally supported the Falklands war, a war of liberation against a right wing authoritarian junta against the will of the people of the islands. That doesn’t mean I supported each and every action by the British armed forces in that war. Let alone in wars or conflicts which took place before I was born!

Its like me saying to David Irvine – do you deny that there was a holocaust or do you merely deny the 5-6 million number? And him saying neither. And then when I condem the actions of the Nazis he asks for a “link” to prove my claim.

Do you now say that you were lying or mistaken or that I misunderstood you or that you failed to clearly express yourself??

My reason for making the claim (and I could and probably have used plenty of other examples)was not to do with the legitimacy of SF but in illustrating the absurdity of failing to distinguish between the moral responsibility of an murderer and his co-conspiractors, on the one hand, and a passive (including tacit) supporter of a murdere on the other.

In any event see below if you need a link to prove what you have already agreed is true??

http://www.nytimes.com/1984/11/05/world/irish-rebel-defends-brighton-bombing.html

Do you think we should help Brit out looking for links to back up his claim?

Nawwwwwwwwwwwwwww

Brit LINKS

Please feel free to join Brit in his trawl of the web to find links to support his claim,

Brit,

Links Please,

Yes

“Or do you believe that Hitler was guilty and the footsoldiers were not?”

It depends what you mean by guilty and footsoldiers. Those who engaged in criminal acts especially those who voluntarily and deliberately got into positions in death camps etc were guilty. I dont think the average German soldier or citizen who went along with Nazism to the extent required to stay safe, without doing more, has much if any guilt.

That your anti-British bigotry and Irish chauvanism led you down a track of arguing that we should ‘remember’ Hitler because he “possibly” didnt directly kill anlyone is as pathetic as it is disgusting. I for one do not honour Hitler or in any way mourn his death – he deserved far worse.

1. SF and the IRA are one and the same; or

2. that SF supporters are/were “bad”

(though a case can be made for both propositions).

I was simply seeking to show that Finn’s arguments about there being no difference between passive supporter of entity and active murderer/consipirator in that entity would lead to a ridiculous conclusion that all SF voters during the troubles should be imprisoned for the IRAs murders.

I note that Finn has failed to address my challenges to his idea that in a democracy all citizens who “support the state” ie accept the legitimacy of the government are morally culpable for all and any actions by that state!

Someone is actually wishing to have “links” to illustrate that Sinn Fein and the IRA are one and the same group.

What next; is the Pope a Catholic, ‘links’ please?

Funny you mention that a judge once told me the same when I represented the company on a minor traffic violation

you said “Neither Brit” which means you accept the truth of both propositions.

In which case SF supporters supported murders, expressly or tacitly even if they didnt commit them or directly organise them. In which case according to you SF supporters are morally equivalent to the IRA volunteers.

There is no missing evidence or missing link in this argument. And no additional need to provide “Links” given that all I have done is apply your position of principle to facts which you have accepted??

I could find links to show that the IRA has committed murders and that SF supported the IRA but since those propositions are expressly accepted by you and in any event self-evident there would be no need.

Brit, Links

WTF?

again in questioning your post from some time ago

“So on your analysis the entire Sinn Fein membership should have been imprisoned for life for expressly or tactitly approving of several murders?”

Once again I ask you for LINKS PLEASE

But its interesting to see you admit that thatcher operated nIreland as a terrorist state