The Poppy and Irish Nationalism
Remembrance Sunday has arrived. Across the north, many will be gathering to pay tribute to dead soldiers of the two ‘great’ wars of the 20th century. Most of those gathering will also pay tribute to the dead RUC, UDR and British soldiers who were casualties of the conflict in Ireland from 1969, as well as British soldiers killed in other conflicts, including Iraq and Afghanistan. Some of those assembled will also be paying homage to those loyalist paramilitaries who died in the recent conflict in the north of Ireland (many of those gathered will certainly not be interested in incorporating the latter into ‘their’ remembrance services, and some may not be too keen on including those loyal to the Crown who fell in conflicts other than the two World Wars either.)
That is perhaps the most narrative-free comment (if there can be such a thing) that can be made on a day which many will naturally find an emotional one. However, given that the run up to this Remembrance Sunday has once again been marked by a campaign agitating for Nationalist Ireland to conform and pledge its allegiance to Britain’s official date of Remembrance, it is important to respond.
Those participating in the numerous Remembrance Day ceremonies across Ireland today are entitled to do so; indeed, as a republican I must state that one of the darkest days of the conflict was the Cenotaph bombing in Enniskillen which claimed so many lives as people were gathering to remember other lost lives. It was an appalling act in a conflict (like all conflicts) marked by many appalling deeds.
In Britain, the apparent increase in poppy wearing is no doubt linked to the now almost daily news of British soldiers being killed in the latest conflicts involving Britain’s soldiers. That is quite understandable. Some have even suggested that it could be a form of protest at the government policy decisions which led to those soldiers being sent to the very conflict zones from which many are now returning from in coffins. Perhaps that is true, though that presupposes a conscious effort on behalf of the populace to distinguish the soldier from the governing authority which could have repercussions for other remembrance dates (more on that later.)
Yet, as the Guardian has correctly noted, the demand for conformity is disturbing even within Britain, and, in our parochial context, betrays a desire to have a specific narrative legitimised above and beyond others.
The kneejerk unionist reaction to the decision by the Students’ Union at Coleraine to permit the sale of both Poppies and Easter Lilies from the Union shop was entirely predictable as it challenged the simplistic unionist narrative which elevates the commemoration of ‘their’ dead above all others.
That is nothing new. It has become something of an annual tradition for Irish people to be derided for not engaging in Britain’s Remembrance Day ceremonies, almost as if declining to do so was an incomprehensible action. Of course, there are Irish people who do choose to participate, overwhelmingly those identifying themselves as British and/or Northern Irish/Irish, as well as others from an Irish nationalist background who choose to partake in ceremonies which remember not just the dead of the Somme and D-Day, but also the members of the Black and Tans, Parachute Regiment, Black Watch and British Military Intelligence who gained notoriety for their deeds in twentieth century Ireland, as well as those who visited grief on the residents of Amritsar soon after the war to free small nations had concluded.
Some of those from a nationalist persuasion no doubt take the decision to distinguish in their minds the dead from the World Wars from those of others, perhaps choosing to ignore the wreaths commemorating others who wore the British uniforms; others might even take the more sober view that all soldiers are/ were humans, normally from the lower classes, victims of economic conscription as well as compulsory military conscription, all deserving acknowledgement for the manner in which their lives were taken from them.
But a more common reaction within Ireland is to acknowledge the importance of the date for those from a protestant/ unionist background in Ireland and, in the past two decades at least, to acknowledge the deaths of those Irishmen who donned the British uniforms for a variety of reasons during the two world wars, whilst declining to partake in an event which, after all, pays tribute to the very soldiers who implemented the policies and guaranteed the writ of the occupying British forces in Ireland throughout the centuries.
What is often conveniently forgotten in the charge to accuse Nationalist Ireland of not remembering the Irish dead of Britain’s wars in a more visible and pronounced manner is that Irish attitudes to remembrance are considerably more reserved than those of our British counterparts, whether the dead were fighting for Britain or for Ireland, by proxy or otherwise.
Whilst Irish republicans may don Easter lilies to remember our dead at Easter time, the overwhelming majority of Irishmen and women choose not to attach any badges to their lapels in Spring nor Autumn.
It has been suggested in the past that the muted nature of commemorations to celebrate independence in southern Ireland has been a consequence of the IRA’s campaign in since 1969. That may well form part of the answer.
But part of the answer can also be found in the fact that Irish people, unlike their British counterparts, know from their history about the complicated and ugly nature of war due to the legacy of conflict within this island, including the horrific civil war of the early 1920s.
The faces of the dead Asians, killed by Britain’s soldiers in the past decade, make at best a fleeting appearance on our television screens. We do not get to hear the widows (nor widowers) speak nor the children cry in our own language. We don’t hear the stories that turn the individuals from covered bodies into very human beings.
The legacy of conflict in Ireland in the twentieth century has been one that has removed any doubts about the horror of war and made it very difficult to romanticise conflict and indulge in the type of jingoistic, patriotic fervour commonly associated with the British tabloid press.
Nevertheless, the fact that Irish Nationalism has, over the past decade and more, made space for the remembrance of ‘their’ fallen in the two World Wars is to be welcomed. Sinn Fein has struck a chord amongst northern nationalists by choosing to acknowledge the sacrifice of these dead Irishmen in a separate display of remembrance involving the laying of a laurel wreath to mark the anniversary of the Battle of the Somme. This has permitted Irish republicans to honour the Irish dead of the First World War without participating in official British ceremonies which require paying respect to Britain’s soldiers who republicans were at war with up to 15 years ago.
There have also been a number of other commemorations- organised by former loyalist leader, Glenn Barr- in which the Irish National flag has been flown alongside the Union Flag to signify that those killed in the First World War were from an Irish nationalist as well as unionist background. Such commemorations are to be welcomed as they take steps to remove the political baggage, recognising the complicated nature of Irish involvement in the world wars.
Of course, there has been a negative reaction from political unionism to these developments. Unionist opposition to this is not only hollow but ridiculous. After all, would they prefer republicans to dishonestly pretend to pay tribute to the very soldiers with whom they were- most recently- engaged in a conflict with for a quarter of a century? If the demand is for recognition of the sorry plight of the fallen soldier in isolation to the commands from his authorities, then does that not have consequences for unionist acknowledgment of the plight of the Irishmen and women who gave their lives for Irish freedom regardless of their hostility to those further up the chain of command?
Given that many of the earliest nominal Irish republicans were of staunch Ulster Protestant stock, then the charge to compel all to embrace Remembrance Sunday as a shared remembrance would logically also seek to demand unionist participation in commemorations remembering Irish republicans who died in the cause of Irish freedom. Food for thought indeed!
Remembrance, like so much else in Northern Ireland, is likely to remain a divisive issue for some time to come. But moves by Irish Nationalism to provide (within the Irish nationalist narrative) a space for unionism to commemorate its British war dead of all wars and to genuinely find a place for the Irish Nationalist casualties of the world wars is a progressive step. The poppy will remain what it is. Irish Nationalism should not, nor does it need to, embrace it: rather, it must simply continue to find a space for those who seek to embrace it within its vision of the future.
Turgon
We need to iron out the generalities before committing to these one-sided views about violence.
All ancient empires are founded on violence, including the British Empire. The first empire, begun by Adam in the Bible is founded on the violence of sin and death as are all empires as the teaching goes.
So republican violence is not simply evil on its own, or indeed even just reactive violence. Republican violence is an attempt to establish an Irish empire by using violence and thus rubs the unionists up the wrong way.
The Book of Revelation suggests that Gerry Adams, whose name comes out at 666 on my numeric alphabet, and whose name contains the name “Adam” is the founder member of that new empire founded again on evil, violence and sin.
But there is nothing intrinsically different in the Republican Empire than in the British empire. Both empires want to control and bully through violence and that is why they must both be stopped.
Thus you cannot consider yourself a more accomplished moral being than Chris Donnelly,if ever there was one.
If I read another word about feckin poppies I’ll start frothing at the gob. Some people wear them, some don’t.
Can we all get back to normal life and normal conversation so that I mightn’t just go totally buck mad?
Good.
Now… who thinks Jedward will get through this week?
I actually enjoyed Chris’s post, but my good humour quickly turned sour on reading the shite coming from the keyboard of Turgon.
He whinges about the murder of his people by the IRA – yes the IRA carried out some despicable acts, of which Enniskillen was one. Nobody in their right mind would defend it.
But what the feck does he think this little statelet he lives in was born out of? How many MILLIONS of Irish men and women have the British murdered over the centuries? How many millions of Indians? How many millions of Africans? Need I go on?
I suppose that is all OK though as it isn’t in his living memory. He should however, remember his little sectarian statelet propped up by gerrymandered boundaries, a paramilitary loyalist militia and one-sided police force, and inequality in every aspect of life. Why did the IRA exist? Why did it have such widespread global support? Maybe because the croppie boys had had enough of lying down to British oppression?
Get off your high horse.
Ciaran,
You would almost think that the brits were the only people in the world who ever used force.
you’re on a fair sized horse yourself!
Now that republicans are working a british funded regime at stormont surely its time to bury the hatchet?
Self righteous clap trap!
lest not forget this is a day to honour the dead! The Poppy is simply a symbol of respect and remembrance for all those (unionist, nationalist, catholic, protestant, Muslim) who made the ultimate sacrifice, it is not
a political symbol.
Those(“on both sides”)who try to use the Poppy in this was, are guilty of a completely ridiculous act of hate and stupidity.
If there was ever a badge designed to draw attention to the futility of it all, surely it is this one.
If you don’t want to wear a poppy or take part in this emotional, dignified and solemn occasion of respect, then don’t!
but don’t be so disrespectful as to try and slap your peusdo political opinion on it.
People who try and pretend the commemoration of British armed forces can be a sans politics event in the north of Ireland, need two things –
1. A head examination
2. A history book
Just a basic point or two towards the end of a long atring of acrimonious comment. I question Chris’s premise here:
“It has become something of an annual tradition for Irish people to be derided for not engaging in Britain’s Remembrance Day ceremonies, almost as if declining to do so was an incomprehensible action.”
In some quarters yes, but I should have thought that the revival of Remembrance ceremonies by the official Republic and the joint visit by Queen and President to the battlefields were widely acknowledged as mature acts of remembrance and contemporary reconciliation. Local remembrance is generally respected or left alone, according to preference, without republicans demanding equal official treatment with “Crown forces.” Not everyone may agree, but I thought Alex Maskey played a blinder with his laurel wreath. Clearly it was intended as a gesture of respect to the unionist community. The fact that conscientious nationalists like Chris wish to explain their position after an obvious struggle is also commendable. The more extreme comments on each side are being absorbed without seriously adding to division and don’t detract from the generally positive position adopted generally on the poppy theme. Apart from some atypical commenters, it is not as divisive as it might be, given the added impetus from Afganistan and Iraq. People I think appreciate the distinction between the people and the State, the policy and the sacrifice. Maturity dawns over the poppy.
Surely everyone who died as a result of war is commemorated on Remembrance Sunday – including every IRA member killed, including all the deaths on the other side in both World Wars, from the children nuked at Hiroshima all the way to Adolf Hitler.
Surely the point is that we’re not just commemorating “our own” dead, but everyone. Not just soldiers, but civilians too; not just the innocent but the guilty too; not just the killed but the killers who also died. Not just our wars, but all wars – both sides of the Irish Civil War for a start.
Amazing how fundamentalists like Turgon bring out the worst in people.
I don’t think any reasonable person minds British people and their supporters for wearing poppies, but the claptrap about it been to remember soldiers who died for ‘our’ freedom is crap, they died for the freedom of Great Britain, which is fine. But people like Pearse, Connolly, the volunteers of 1916 and the IRA of the war of independence died so Ireland could be free. Thats why the Easter Lily is worn.
Perhaps its time to internationalise the Easter Lily, and invite representatives of former colonies who had to fight countries like GB, Belgium and France for their freedom to attend Bodenstown to remember the first people who rose out against colonial masters.
Let nations collectively honour the people who made the ultimate sacrifice in liberating their people, as oppose to been cannon fodder for their colonial masters.
Fin,
Did those who fought Hitler from wherever not contribute to all our freedom on these islands and western europe?
fin,
You said this about my late father in law who was a POW of the Japanese:
“On your knees boy and beg the Irish people for forgiveness, that your family would take up arms and serve a man who tortured your neigbours and burnt their homes.”
Of course you then say that I “bring out the worst in people.”
So it is my fault that you insult my family? Ah yes a standard republican line: it is all the fault of Prods that republicans “had” to hate and kill them because they “bring out the worst in people.”
Richard Gadsen @ 08:19. Surely you are not serious! Do you seriously believe the ‘British’ here would appear in towns and villages throughout the six counties if they thought that the ‘commemoration’ included Irish Republicans or Germans or Japanese. They don’t call it the protestant poppy for nothing. It is for ‘their’ dead who made the supreme sacrifice to Keep Ulster British and free from Fenians.
PH
The protestant poppy…really. That’s absurd if not worse.
@Pancho’s Horse 8:49. I’m English; the poppy was invented by a Frenchman, not an Ulsterman; if they are misusing it, then they are wrong, not the poppy. It’s for everyone. The only qualification is to be dead.
I wear my poppy in England for Bobby Sands, for Michael Collins, for the Argentinians who died in the Falklands, for Adolf Hitler, for the million bombed to death in Japan and the other million bombed to death in Germany. For the guilty as much as the innocent. And for the soldiers who died on both sides of the trenches in WWI, for whom it was invented.
For everyone who died in a war.
Turgon, do you wear a poppy for the IRA men killed in 1918-22?
Great idea fin @ 08:29 PM, I wonder would such an idea be welcomed by the unionist community…probably not, as we know any indigenous people who rebelled against the ‘noble empire’ are not deserving of consideration.
Hitler was a real godsend for the ulster protestant loyalist british bigot.Look paddy look at my poppy you little catholic twat. Thats what I grew up with in northern ireland.Not A WONDERFUL LIVE AND LET LIVE PROTESTANT SOCIETY.Wanna job? what school? you can fuk right of (said behind your back of course).Its going to take another hundred years for all to forget because neither side will ever really forgive.
When I read the half-witted comments of Chris Donnelly I wonder was pighshit ever so thin.
@fin “the first people who rose out against colonial masters” Um, what about the first Indian War of Independence in 1857?
Mr Gadsden, I salute you. You wear the Poppy for the right reason- the millions of wasted lives for whatever reason. Being an Englishman, you may not be aware of the protestant poppy which is worn over here to remind the native Irish who is, was and will be military top dog over here in theis sorry sectarian statelet carved by bigots out of our country. We have no quarrel with any other nation in the world except England and we have good reason. I also realise that the colonial types here are somewhat of an embarassment to their ‘mother country’ on the ‘mainland’ but we are stuck with them.
Richard Gadsden,
A fair question. I can only answer honestly. I respect your decision re why you wear your poppy. I cannot feel I am wearing mine for the IRA of the troubles. I have not really thought about the 1918-22 IRA. I find it difficult to feel I am wearing it for them but maybe not impossible.
As to the dead of the Second World War. I find it difficult to wear it for Hitler but for the Germans and Japanese including the soldiers most definitely yes: they had no choice but to fight. Indeed I do not think fighting for their country was fundamentally wrong even though the policies of the Germans government was utterly wrong.
As an aside my late father in law deliberately and consciously bought Japanese cars to state that he did not hold the later generations responsible.
Fin, you and I are at one on the internationalisation of the Lily. It should be a commemoration primarily of those who fought so that small nations may be free. They foughht in the GPO and there legacy was the destruction of the British Empire.
However let us not forget the rest. Sarsfield (that this was for Ireland), the San Patricios, the Irish Brigades on both sides of the American Civil War. Throughout Europe and beyond the Wild Geese fought.
“Was it for this the wild geese spread
The grey wing upon every tide;
For this that all that blood was shed,
For this Edward Fitzgerald died,
And Robert Emmet and Wolfe Tone,
All that delirium of the brave?
Romantic Ireland’s dead and gone,
It’s with O’Leary in the grave.”
and the reply
Was it needless death after all?
For England may keep faith
For all that is done and said.
We know their dream; enough
To know they dreamed and are dead;
And what if excess of love
Bewildered them till they died?
I write it out in a verse —
MacDonagh and MacBride
And Connolly and Pearse
Now and in time to be,
Wherever green is worn,
Are changed, changed utterly:
A terrible beauty is born.
This is what the Lily represents, that right is stronger than might. And good shall triumph over evil. Surely the world will always welcome that message
MOre generally, I’m rewriting the commenting rules for the site just now, and I am considering inserting a clause on ‘unparliamentary language’.
It seems to me we need to do much more to help people keep on the topic and away from each other.
Mick
Sounds like a good idea. Should hopefully lead to more constructive discussions in the comments zone if properly adhered to.
Brian
Interesting post.
I agree that the joint ceremonies are a mature development- indeed I think I made reference to such in the main post when specifically highlighting work done by Glenn Barr in Derry.
It is the attempt to foist the poppy itself on Irish nationalism, in the context of it representing British military casualties of all wars, past and present, which is the source of contention.
As I point out, there are those who will simply make their own distinction over whom they choose to remember when wearing the poppy. Others will politely decline whilst not wanting to offend but not wanting to endorse Britain’s military history.
As I’ve said already, the task for Irish nationalism is to allow for the clear desire of unionists to commemorate their British military tradition, as well as finding a place in remembrance for the thousands of dead Irishmen of the world wars from the nationalist tradition.
Much of that work has already been done.
btw Perhaps maturity will soon dawn over the Easter lily….
Mick
Here is the definition of an ad hominum argument:
Person 1 makes claim X
There is something objectionable about Person 1
Therefore claim X is false
Now, could you kindly explain to me two things: 1. How what Turgon is doing differs from this and 2. why exactly it is tolerated here.
He’s done this with me, and I refuse to play along not because I have any problem condemning things the IRA did, but because I refuse to play childish games. This has resulted in him chasing me across multiple sites with wild accusations.
Third question: at what point did anyone’s opinion on X become a test they had to pass before their comments would be respected and their points delat with?
Even Turgon will admit that it is not fundamentally wrong to fight for your country – unless you are Irish, that is. I can’t understand his sorrow for the ordinary footsoldier but his refusal to include Adolf, who possibly never killed a fly in his life. All the atrocities were carried out by rank and file – British too.
It’s a grave pity turgie old son (in my opinion)that a wee bit of your sainted father in law didn’t rub off on you. Don’t think I would have liked to have met yours. Now Mick before you remove this old turgie keeps bringing his family into this so I think we should be allowed to comment on them. As an aside like Fin I really don’t know how his sainted father in-law could have served under that sack of shit or with the inhumane scum who tortured and maimed his fellow countrymen him being so honorable and religious and fair and wondrous and all fek me where’s Walt Disney when you need him. Walt Walt there’s a guy here turgon tells great fairy stories want to meet him.
Coll,
Would you care to elaborate more seriously on your juxtaposition of these two poems?
kensei,
If a person makes claim X on some occasions and then on other occasions claims the opposite of X it is reasonable to point out that out.
A person’s opinion on X is a good test of their comments on issues directly pertaining to X.
If Y is closely related to X. Now if the person says opinion 1 about Y but that contradicts their opinion on X then what we know about their opinion on X is very relevant to their claim (1) about Y.
“I wear my poppy in England for Bobby Sands, for Michael Collins, for the Argentinians who died in the Falklands, for Adolf Hitler, for the million bombed to death in Japan and the other million bombed to death in Germany. For the guilty as much as the innocent. And for the soldiers who died on both sides of the trenches in WWI, for whom it was invented.”
And do you weear your swastika and handbag for the same reason?
Wearing the poppy should be outlawed and old soldiers should be told to f- off and get a job.
@fin “the first people who rose out against colonial masters” Um, what about the first Indian War of Independence in 1857?
Fair point Richard, although the Irish were rebelling before the ‘great white father’ discovered India as Coll Ciotach pointed out.
But India is a good example given the influence of Michael Davitt on Gandhi.
Turgon, shush with your Mopery.
“As an aside my late father in law deliberately and consciously bought Japanese cars to state that he did not hold the later generations responsible.”
I know what you mean, I myself follow Premier League football for exactly the same reason, I believe my English mates drink German Largers for similar reasons aswell, but are you sure it wasn’t German cars and Japanese TVs
fin,
My Mopery?
You have been merrily telling us about the afflictions the British wrought upon the oppressed Irish.
“When the future comes to judge the past, men in uniform will be seen to be very dangerous,” so spoke the Lamb of God.
And the more senior they get as soldiers the more dangerous they are, until you arrive at the very top, a military strategist who uses random and informal violence to get his way.
Who can make war against the ultimate soldier, as the British army found out in the North.
I refer, of course, to Gerry Adams, the alleged leading member of the IRA army council at one point.
Could we not just stop glorifying violence on this blog and start to realise that you’re just fueling aggrieved egos.
I wonder,
I think we all self medicate. If you take paracetamol for a headache that is, I believe, self medication.
Incidentally I do not ask for ad hominum attacks on me to be removed. Since kensei is so exercised by them I await him asking for such attacks on me to be removed.
Turgon
Oh do shut up. What you doing is exactly “There is something objectionable about person X”. Dress it up how you like. Aside from anything, you flat out called Chris a liar earlier.
It’s to the great detriment to the site that this is tolerated.
Dear John, you don’t seem to have much trouble with the violence of the Holy Roman Empire.And as was shown before, the number of the Beast is 616, which is YOUR number. Not our illustrious Leader.
kensei,
That was clearly not an ad hominum attack but a serious point because you do not do ad hominum attacks do you?
Wel, oh my, this has all got a bit out of hand, hasn’t it? I do think it’s very interesting that so many of the people on here haven’t moved on from the basic position of believing that everybody must believe one thing or t’other.
I don’t know anyone who wants nationalists to wear a poppy, nor do I know of anybody who has a major problem with people wearing a lily at Easter time. It would be super if nationalists could come to terms with their ancestors’ involvement in the armed forces of the UK, just as it would be excellent if my comrades could begin to understand the complexities of what the UK actually got up to in its past.
It’s strange to see the exponents of our deeply divided society so keen to wrench commonalities apart on the playground provided by this forum.
PH
If you say so…
But I would beg to differ and if it bothers you that much about your Antichrist leader you should ask him to stand down.
By the way my number is 865, not 616. But Gerry Adams on the same alphabet is 666 – The Antichrist to anyone who’s considered the matter with a pure heart.
865 ……….. God,no!. We are all doomed even the ‘hominums’ amongst us.
Turgon
“There is something objectionable about person X”. Did say there was anything objectionable about you just how you are behaving. Which is to derail threads by avoiding discusison and putting up tests.
I’m not surprised you are putting up barriers to people discussing things. I am surprised Mick is tolerating it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dYpnd_9TFs
kensei,
Indeed sorry your comment “Oh do shut up” is an example of intelligent debate.
Just a couple of other examples of previous reasoned comments from you to me:
“Never argue with an idiot”
“Apparently you can’t read”
PH
Bosnia, no doubt, has its attractions.
I think that Ireland needs to proactively defeat the irredentist propagandists who seek to use the sentiment that the Irish nation attaches to its tragic dead for the cynical purpose of creating allegiance to a foreign state by seeking to involve that nation in ceremonies that are only properly applicable to citizens of that foreign state.
This should be done by having a day of remembrance to all members of the Irish nation who have died in events overseas. The nation should not, however, seek to commemorate its members who have died in foreign armies, serving foreign states, since this elevates disloyalty, and no nation would seek to elevate those who have been disloyal to their own state – or, in the case of those who served in the British army before the Irish state was established, to elevate those who have been disloyal to their own nation. By making a day of remembrance (preferably a non-working day since we have too many bank holidays as it is) to all who died in tragic events abroad, we don’t need to specify who is or is not included. It is all who died on foreign shores, and that’s that.
fin,
My Mopery?
You have been merrily telling us about the afflictions the British wrought upon the oppressed Irish.
No Turgon, mostly the afflictions wrought by your father in laws commanding officer and his gang the ‘Essex Torture Battalion’
And by the way, thank you to all those who served in all armies in the second world war, fighting against fascism. We wouldn’t enjoy our limited freedoms today without your sacrifice. I say limited because we have given most of those fundamental freedoms away to an anti-democratic regime which intends to deprive us of our renaming national freedoms in due course. It’s a shame that these muppets think so little of your sacrifice that would give away so freely the freedoms that were secured with so much of your blood.
Turgon
Sorry, you are confusing me with someone what cares. I don’t claim to be a paragon of virtue, but in that case I did not actually play the man.
Anyhoo, what you are doing now is engaging in whataboutery. Are you going for a collection? Quite happy to stand for my own crimes, independent of anyone else.
The statement by the British Legion in North Down that they would boycott Remembrance services there if Loyalists hijacked them was very welcome and long overdue. Indeed the British Legion has started to realise that the politicisation of the poppy by Unionism has prevented many Irish people from commemmorating the fallen of the two wars especially those whose own relatives died. Today I witnessed a crowd of well known Loyalist paramilitaries and their hangers on gather outside their watering hole in North Belfast after their ‘Remembrance Parades’ ALL wearing poppies. Oh the irony! I wonder if these thugs remember the innocent people they shot in the back in the dark of night and who now lie in cold graves.
kensei
“I did not actually play the man. “
A few more comments from you about me:
“Please take your childish vendettas and go elsewhere.”
“If you ever want a grown up talk”
On a debate about The uneasy morality of violence:
“Perhaps you could also enlighten me as to the age of the Earth.”
and
“I appreciate you don’t need to intellectualise anything, given that God beams the Truth directly into your brain”
LURIG
point well made
Kensei,
Are you the guy who argued on Slugger that it was okay to throw rocks at your betters?