Sean FitzPatrick and “those establishment f**kers”, aka southern Protestants…
Excellent quote from McWilliams’ Follow the Money
which uncovers the calibre of the man running the dirtiest (so far as we know) bank in Ireland... which were obviously not intended for publication…
“Then he came closer, squeezed my arm and practically hissed between clenched teeth: “No f***ing Protestant is coming near us. Those establishment f***ers and Bank of Ireland have been running our country before we came along, and those f***ers are not going to bring me down. None of them are ever going to look down on us again. We are the outsiders, and this is our moment. Those f***ers don’t own us any more.”
A fitting end, then, to a bigoted piece of crap like that.
Not really. The banks were classic Anglican ascendancy, just like Arnott’s. These people and their Howth villas should have got their comeuppance in 1923. Just because they are attacked by a Taca type does not make them lily white.
CS, its a weird tirade, and I don’t agree with him, HOWEVER, because of his choice of words/reasons I’m interested to see the response on Slugger.
Did the Protestant ascendancy look down on the natives?
Did the Protestant ascendancy ‘own’ the natives?
But I really don’t know where he is coming from, I never heard of the BoI referred to as the Church of Ireland Bank and I don’t understand lumping ‘the establishment’ and Protestant together
And what about his directorships on ‘establishment’ companies in particular Smurfit. IS it that he’s was splashing around to justify been a very naughty boy caught with his hand in the till.
What about all those good Catholic shareholders he’s screwed
Smurfit are English Prods but it sohuld be no surprise the taca men are there.
Any young Stick etc years ago would have been told that the Anglican aristocracy – BoI, Arnotts, Guinness etc sided with the Free States against the “woeking class” (middle class actually) Republicans during the Civil war and bankrolled the Blueshirts.
Doroty McArdle of Tragedie of kerry fame and a Dev groupie was from the family of the Dundalk brewers. Nothing is ever cut and dried.
As the son of a former BoI worker there is no doubt that 30/40 years ago the Church of Ireland had a ‘favoured position’ in the bank.
I have no evidence but I’m sure there was a considerable degree of ‘looking after one’s own’.
Two points – 1. those days are long gone, BoI is no more CoI than the Irish Times is any longer.
Any misdeameanours surely pale into insignifcance compared to what Fitzpatrick et al have achieved.
They have virtually bankrupted the Republic and destoryed its international credibility.
Finally, Fitzpatrick and co do not have to fear BoI or AIB my own guess is that ultimately all the Irish banks will end up in the hands of Tesco and Virgin.
Will Fitzpatrick swear and sneer at the BoI ‘ascendancy’ then? Gobsh*te
He doesnt get out that much these day for safety reasons.
http://sluggerotoole.com/index.php/weblog/comments/fitzpatrick-ejected-from-elite-dining-room-of-the-celtic-tiger/
I’m intrigured by the position of Irish Protestants in the Republic. Are they all CoI/Anglican or are there any Presbyterians?
Are they primarily based in Dublin and the counties of Ulster in the Republic?
Are they associated with being generally wealthy / upper class?
Presumably they have reconciled themselves fully to the end of the Union in respect of the part of the island in the RoI but what of their political views generally and in relation to Britain and NI Prods/Unionists?
Shock! Horror! Banker revealed as total banker!
Brit,
Your run-of-the-mill-standard-southern-Prods, as a rule, simply go to a different church, they like Irish Jews etc share exactly the same Nationalist ideology as everyone else i.e. they would welcome a United Ireland.
McWilliams was asked about this yesterday on RTE yesterday and he said it was not meant to be sectarian?
The reasoning seems to be that, as everyone knows, the AIB are the Catholic f***ers and BOI the Protestant (COI only of course) ones.
Fitzpatrick wanted to f**k both of them with his new anti-establishment Anglo-Irish. He certainly achieved that.
As usual – it wasn’t meant to be sectarian is the greatest laugh out- because it was – sectarianism is alive and well and this is a classic example
“Your run-of-the-mill-standard-southern-Prods, as a rule, simply go to a different church, they like Irish Jews etc share exactly the same Nationalist ideology as everyone else i.e. they would welcome a United Ireland. ”
The difference with Jews or Buddhists or whatever, being that southern Prods forefathers were part of the ruling class/Prod ascendancy which strongly opposed home rule/independence and was predominately Unionist before the creation of the RoI.
So they just think the Northern Unionists are nutters?
Really Sammy? I have Donegal protestants friends and family in Cavan who would attest otherwise.
Brit,
re.”The difference with Jews or Buddhists or whatever, being that southern Prods forefathers were part of the ruling class/Prod ascendancy which strongly opposed home rule/independence and was predominately Unionist before the creation of the RoI.”
I wasnt suggesting they had the same history just that they now share the same ideology.
re. “So they just think the Northern Unionists are nutters?”
I would suggest that they have a sense of embarassment at being associated with them because of their sectarian coat trailing.
“it was not meant to be sectarian”
Nice to start a monday morning with a laugh
“I’m intrigured by the position of Irish Protestants in the Republic. Are they all CoI/Anglican or are there any Presbyterians?
Are they primarily based in Dublin and the counties of Ulster in the Republic?”
Try
http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/protestants_1861_1991.html
generally ther are like hens teeth– a cowed irrelevant rump
I would suggest that they have a sense of embarassment at being associated with them because of their sectarian coat trailing.
To confirm this point, from today’s Irish Times:
“A UNIQUE Protestant service took place in Dublin on Saturday when Orangemen from the Republic held a service to commemorate Reformation Day for what is believed to be the first time.
On October 31st, 1517, Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the door of the parish church at Wittenberg in Germany, a date that is generally seen as the beginning of the Reformation. Saturday’s service took place at Bewleys Hotel in Ballsbridge and was attended by approximately 30 members of the Dublin and Wicklow Orange Lodge.
Also present were the Donegal county grand master David Mahon and the Cavan county grand master Henry Latimer.
Attempts to have the service held in mainstream Protestant churches in Dublin were unsuccessful.”
As far as the original topic goes, well, Seánie’s not called Seánie the Sh!t for nothing.
Garza,
I dont really want to get into a debate as to who knows the most southern irish prods – but generally my experience is that Prods buy into the state and it’s national apsirations of a UI the same as most others.
Seanie Fitz – “No f***ing Protestant is coming near us”
Ha ha.. He’s still taking a right bashing from our brave Protestant hero, the right honourable Senator Shane Ross.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bankers-Banks-Brought-Ireland-Knees/dp/1844882160
SammyMcNally
My southern protestant relatives seem very anti-powersharing with SF.
PS do you want to have a bet regarding whether devolution of P&J will happen by Christmas again this year?
Slug –
In truth most southerners whether Catholic or Protestant wouldn’t welcome SF in government. Although I think it’s something of a process, there is probably less hostility towards the idea than there has been, as SF move away from the extremes.
Brit,
To satisfy your curiosity please scroll down to page 23:
http://www.cso.ie/census/census2006results/volume_13/volume_13_religion.pdf
slug,
RE. “PS do you want to have a bet regarding whether devolution of P&J will happen by Christmas again this year? ”
I had no takers last time, which I put down to good Prod financial husbandry/tightness – luckily for me.
Would you like a bet that that it will not happen in a political lifetime?
I will bet a tenner (just with you) that the transfer will be agreed by SF and the DUP before the election next year although the date of transfer may be after the election.
slug,
re. “My southern protestant relatives seem very anti-powersharing with SF. ”
Wouldnt argue about that.
Thanks Erasmus.
Interesting.
@slug – no need to differentiate southern *prods* in respect of powersharing, given how the parties in the Dail won’t touch them with a barge pole.
“No f***ing Roman Catholic is coming near us…”
If uttered in NI, we’d hear howling and demands for heads to roll for months.
Brit,
As a Protestant from Cork, I can say that living in the Republic of Ireland is similar to living in any other western european country, i.e. your religion is of no consequence. There are Protestants in all the political parties in the Republic. I support the Munster rugby team, the Irish rugby and football teams and of course, being from Cork, the hurling team! The first President of Ireland was a Protestant and even a recent President of the GAA was a Protestant. The fact is that while the Republic moved on with the times, sadly Northern Ireland has a long way to progress. Regarding the reunification of Ireland, it would be nice to see but only when a majority votes for it.
Stephen: Define “majority”.
As per the Belfast agreement. When a majority in both states vote for it. Can’t be more fairer than that.
Stephen
Did you read the Ryan Report and its comments about the deference of the State to the RC Church which allowed the latter to get away with the most abominable crimes ?
There was institutionalised catholicism and anti Britishness within the 26 county state and by its nature that would have been anti Protestant.
When the Protestant population in 1921 is 15% to 20% and has now fallen to less than 3% then that speaks volumes for me.
However as Southern Protestants are no longer a “threat” to the State of course you are treated politely with a pat on the head. Every now and again though people like Fitzpatrick let the mask slip.
You are in denial
This story would never have made it past the editor in Scotland. Only Protestants can be bigots in the Republic of Schotland under the SNP.
Mr Fitzpatrick was only having a laugh – no?
John East Belfast,
Just because there is a problem North of the border there does not have to be a corresponding problem of the same magnitude South of the border.
The same applies in reverse as the DUP were pointing out in Stormo yesterday in relation to the child abuse enquiry.
JEB,
your delight at FitzTwatrick’s outburst is clouding your judgement.
“There was institutionalised catholicism and anti Britishness within the 26 county state”
Don’t complain about “institutionalised catholicism” JEB this side of your campaign to stop Gordon Brown picking bishops.
And as for anti-Britishness, well dear me, how bad of them after fighting a bitter War of Independence from erm..was it Mexico?
Fitzpatrick let his own bigoted mask slip, do try to keep your’s fixed tight.
“As per the Belfast agreement. When a majority in both states vote for it. Can’t be more fairer than that.”
The term “majority” in this context is still not clear to me.
From wikipedia:
“The Clarity Act in Canada gives the Parliament of Canada the power to decide if a referendum relating to provincial secession has obtained a “clear majority”, implying that some sort of supermajority is needed. If it is determined it has not obtained a supermajority, the results of the referendum will be dismissed and the province cannot declare independence legally.”
And the case where NI votes for leaving the UK, but in the RoI a vote admitting NI into the RoI loses, what then?
I have found no clear definition in the GFA. Perhaps you can point it out, Stephen?
The BoI was always Ascendancy bank but the last traces of that faded out with the departure as CEO of its last Eton-educated West-Brit, Mark Hely-Hutchinson, circa 1990 due mainly to bad investment decisions in America. While it still sponsors the Irish cricket team and (Irish-Northern Irish) rugby team, it nowadays balances that with GAA sponsorship too. Incidentally, Hely-Hutchinson did rather well out of the property boom by having his back garden rezoned for building and selling it for a cool 9.7 million.
John,
You are living in the past.
All I can say to you is that unlike NI, religion is not an issue in the Republic. It is a completely different society to NI. There are a lot of British living in the Republic as well as nationalities from all over Europe and further afield. They all seem to like it here. Maybe you should come with an open mind and live here too for a while.
Bono is probably the most famous quintessential Dub. Does anyone care in the Republic that he’s a Protestant as are most of the band members. Does it matter, not really.
“Then he came closer, squeezed my arm and practically hissed between clenched teeth: “No f***ing Protestant is coming near us. Those establishment f***ers and Bank of Ireland have been running our country before we came along, and those f***ers are not going to bring me down. None of them are ever going to look down on us again. We are the outsiders, and this is our moment. Those f***ers don’t own us any more.”
I doubt that Fitzpatrick used that exact words to a journalist. At any rate, it is poor form to McWilliams to either invent private conversations or to print them in order to make some money from the touting the tittle-tattle to increase interest in his forthcoming book. This lack of morality makes me question his veracity. Lenihan, I’m sure, had no idea that McWilliams would break a private confidence and print the contents of their conversation – especially when Mr Lenihan insisted on no public mention of it. This is all very shabby behaviour aimed at putting coins in McWilliams’ pocket by selling books via expose.
At any rate, if he did use them, then it is clear that he does not object to Protestants but to the treason of those who remain loyal to the British state and who denigrate the culture of the nation that controls the state in which they live. In other words, he doesn’t object to those who might say protestant prayers but to those who act as a fifth column undermining the Irish state, the Irish nation and its culture, from within.
That political statement is deliberately obscured by those who squeal “Horrid sectarianism!” in order to obscure it. That now-diminished business ascendancy class did not confine itself to sneering about the lack of fitness of the Irish to govern themselves (and especially the superior class of British) but were actively disloyal to the Irish state. In the case of the Irish Times (another ascendancy business), this lack of fidelity to the Irish nation and its state led to the chief executive of that paper making an offer to the British government to use that paper as a vehicle to disseminate pro-British propaganda in Ireland. That was simply treason. If the religion of the person offering to commit the treason is relevant, it is only because that was the religion of the Ascendancy.
Gerry,
These people and their Howth villas should have got their comeuppance in 1923.
What sort of comeuppance ? Burned at the stake ?
Ah sure it was all part of a great Catholic crusade…well, that makes it all right then!
I do seem to remember that one of the alleged members of the Anglo Golden Circle, Jerry Conlan is listed on Gavin’s Blog fortwith;
“A Catholic, he is a member of the Order of St Lazarus of Jerusalem, dedicated to the defence of the Christian faith. Members are expected to pray daily and to remain faithful to their marriage vows.” )
And just in case anybody needs reminding, here are details off the Anglo scandal as it unfolds;
http://www.gavinsblog.com/2009/09/29/anglo-irish-bank-part-1/
At any rate, if he did use them, then it is clear that he does not object to Roman Catholics in NI but to the treason of those who remain loyal to the Irish Republic and who denigrate the culture of the nation that controls the state in which they live. In other words, he doesn’t object to those who might say roman catholic prayers but to those who act as a fifth column undermining the UK state, the British nation and its culture, from within.
Yawn. As is in the link, a protestant is alleged by another protestant to be a “renegade white nigger.” That means that he has ‘turned native’ i.e. is overly sympathetic to Irish nationalism. That is what alarmed the protestant chief executive of the Irish Times and why he asked the British government for help in controlling the “renegade” protestant editor. Most Protestants in Ireland are loyal to the Irish state but that doesn’t include the West-Brit class who remain loyal to the UK, and who seek to rejoin their motherland. That class was actively treasonous, as seen clearly in the actions of the chief executive of the Irish Times. Burying your little head in the sand doesn’t alter that reality one iota. In regard to Catholics in NI, they have signed up to the constitutional legitimacy of British rule, so they’re not relevant here.
“In regard to Catholics in NI, they have signed up to the constitutional legitimacy of British rule, so they’re not relevant here.”
So SF shouldn’t be winning elections in NI, no?
I get the impression that the more blinkered type
of Ulster Unionist, a la classic Freudian projection, tries to conjure up the fiction of southern anti-Protestant sectarianism in order to deflect attention from their own sectarianism.
What would you expect from a sectarian pig but a grunt.
Sammy
“Just because there is a problem North of the border there does not have to be a corresponding problem of the same magnitude South of the border”
This is Ireland we are talking about – the whole Irish problem ultimately has its roots in a religious division.
Of course there was a Catholic – Protestant issue in the Republic as there was throughout all Ireland for 400 years.
The only difference was how it worked out in the two jurisdictions in the 20th Century and that was based on an 85/15 split v a 65/35 split. If the critcal mass of Protestants in the ROI post partition has been greater things might have worked out there didfferently as well.
However they hadnt a chance in the new 26 county statelet and either got out or kept their heads down.
Craig’s Protestant Parliament for a Protestant people was mirrored by De Valera’s Catholic Constitution for a Catholic Nation. Stormonts embracement of all things British was mirrored by Eire’s rejection of the same.
The Catholic Church was given a special place with obvious disastrous results
Unionism has faced up to its cold house for Catholics but the south is in denial about the 1921 to Pre Celtic Tiger society it created and the outworkings of that on its Protestant community. The fact that the numbers of Protestants declined by over 75% speaks volumes in itself.
A senior Banker and previously respected figurelike Fitzpatrick is indicative of his generation and its thinking. Are you telling me as he mingled at the races with FF politicians and others that he kept these views to himself ? When people under this kind of pressure react in this way they betray deeper inner thoughts and beliefs. He wasnt just any punter – he was a senior banker with connections all the way to the top.
As I say live in denial all you like but the Ryan Report and these comments are only the recent exmaples of the kind of insular and at times backward society 20th Century Eire was and you wonder why northern unionists have a problem with the concept of unity ?
Borderline
“And as for anti-Britishness, well dear me, how bad of them after fighting a bitter War of Independence from erm..was it Mexico?”
I am glad you agree with me – some people think there was no anti Britishness in Eire – are you telling me that this would have no effect on the Protestant mindset where they become a stranger in their own country ? I prefer Dave’s attitude where the previous 26 county unionists were effectively collaborators to be changed or put out.
“Fitzpatrick let his own bigoted mask slip, do try to keep your’s fixed tight”
Give me one line of bigotry in my post above ?
Stephen
“You are living in the past.
All I can say to you is that unlike NI, religion is not an issue in the Republic. It is a completely different society to NI.”
We were talking about the past – but dont forget Fitzpatrick made his comment 12 months ago not 50 years ago.
Therefore if you are a teenager i respectfully request you should go and read some material on the history of your state.
Does it not concern you that the State deferred to the Catholic Church whilst it committed the most abominable crimes against children ? It is a shocking scandle where they are still trying to cover it up and avoid paying compensation.
Add to that your corrupt political environment and your corrupt banking one there is something not nice at the very core of your society.
You need to stop being so subserviant to the state and develop more of a true republican and radical questioning of it – dare I say it Presbyterian one ?
“Add to that your corrupt political environment and your corrupt banking one there is something not nice at the very core of your society.”
Ha ha…….so unlike NI, which is of course a very ‘nice’ society!
“You need to stop being so subserviant to the state and develop more of a true republican and radical questioning of it – dare I say it Presbyterian one ?”
Indeed John, and I take it you have, regarding NI?
‘Republic phobia’ and ‘Catholic paranoia’ got a grip of you John?
JEB.
You asked for evidence of your bigotry.
Well you wrote…
“Every now and again though people like Fitzpatrick let the mask slip”
Tell us JEB, without slipping into simple bigotry, who are these “people like Fitzpatrick” who let their masks slip.
There is nothing like an old-fashioned anti-ROI phillipic to get the adrenaline flowing!
JEB, I suggest that you swot up the facts in the CSO website I mentioned to ‘Brit’ before you type such absurdities. If you did you will find that the Protestant population of the state at its inception was nowhere near 15-20%; it was actually 10. The reasons for its decline in the early years have been outlined in detail over and over again in Slugger and elsewhere but the discredited sectarian hypothesis still get trotted out with monotonous regularity. You will also find a current Protestant population of about 5% if you do you CSO homework and a steady rise in the said population since about the late 1980′s (as opposed to a corresponding fall in Northern Ireland). The Catholic percentage in the south has actually been in decline since 1981.
If the ROI is so ‘anti-British’ why are UK nationals the largest immigrant group (115,000 as per the CSO)? These are actual UK nationals and not returned Irish folk.
As for the Ryan report this is simply the function of a healthy democracy openly cleaning out its Augean stables; please google on ‘Kincora’ and a recent Orange stalwart whose surname begins with ‘H’ before you adopt a ‘holier than thou’ attitude.
I note, in a revealing irony, how you berated poor Stephen for failing to show the desired level of grievance – a pattern that invariably surfaces whenever this issue is raised.
Seanie Fitzpatrick spoke for nobody but himself but comments like this are invariably seized on and magnified by unionists propagandists trying delude themselves that southern sectarianism exists beyond any negligible extent.
One final question:
There have been two Protestant presidencies, two deputy prime ministries, and a number of cabinet ministries since the beginning of the state. Please name one *elected* Catholic who ascended to cabinet office in Stormont between 1921 and 1972 when the unionists ran the show all by themselves.
The ’5%’ mentioned above was in contradistinction to JEB’s ’3′%.
In the same vein the following is the gist of a letter I sent to Eric Waugh following his latest anti-ROI rant:
2/11/2009
Dear Mr. Waugh,
I have read with concern your latest appalling and misinformed diatribe against the Republic of Ireland. It is quite obvious that you never spent one minute checking out the facts before writing this inane rubbish – lazy journalism at its worst. You mentioned ‘two Protestants’ in Dáil Éireann. There are in fact five:
Jan O’Sullivan
Seymour Crawford
Trevor Sargent
Brian Hayes
Martin Mansergh
This is exactly five times the number of Catholics that ascended to cabinet office during the 1921-1972 Stormont regime. Here’s the beef if you want to satisfy your curiousity:
http://www.oireachtas.ie/members-hist/default.asp?housetype=0&HouseNum=30&disp=mem
I enclose some data which will hopefully finally cure you of the ‘fourteen Protestants in the Gardai’ misconception. Although the number quoted is lowish it is nowhere near the figure cited by you. And, as I have pointed out before, the Gardai tend to be below the radar of a highly prosperous and elevatedly aspirational southern Protestant community – in this regard please chew over the data showing an overrepresentation in managerial and higher professional positions.
If you want to verify this data go into the Central Statistics Office website (http://www.cso.ie) , type ‘religion, into the search engine, access the 2006 data (4th down), and scroll down to pages 112 and 114.
In short they do not need, and actually resent, your misguided and misplaced patronage.
If you are a man of integrity (which I’m sure you are), now that I have pointed out the factual errors in your piece, you will publish a full retraction and apology.
Yours sincerely, etc.