A proud Republican can wear the poppy…
In the first of what I hope will become a series, John McGuirk argues that there is no conflict in interest in an Irish Republican wearing a poppy in remembrance of those who died in past wars… For him it is about standing up for what you believe in, not against what you don’t believe in: specifically, the universal freedom of humanity that saw the liberation of the death camps of Bergin Belsen and other places…By John McGuirk
Over the course of a weekend filled with strange yet predictable happenings, including an alleged visit to Knock by the mother of God herself and Liverpool’s 3-1 defeat at Fulham, of all places, one incident stands out as particularly easy to foresee, but impossible to divorce from controversy. In a decision which led to a full nineteen pages of discussion inside four hours over on one internet forum, John and Edward allowed silk poppy motifs to be sown into their clothes for their appearance on the X Factor.
You can read the discussions on various fora yourself, if you want to sample the criticism the lads received for their decision (strangely their singing is largely unremarked upon in most parts), but you can probably guess the tenor of much of it without bothering.
Traitors. West Brits. Pandering to Unionism. They probably once sneakily laughed at an Ally McCoist gag on A Question of Sport. And so on. The usual insults doled out to anybody seen as too pally with the hated, and ergo intrinsically evil, British.
I’m a Republican. I believe in a 32 County Irish Sovereign Republic. I want the tricolour to fly over Stormont, one day, with broad consent. And I’m proud to wear the poppy, like John and Edward. For far too long Irish patriots have cast our patriotism in terms of what we are against – Unionists, Britain, the Loyal orders, the blue side of Glasgow and so on, instead of what we are for.
I prefer to define my republicanism in terms of what I support. I’m for liberty, for freedom from the need to fear my Government. I’m for basic, decent equality between people regardless of creed or country or colour. I’m for helping those in need of help. Those values are universal, and I’m proud that they have been adopted by a modern, outward looking Irish Republic.
But there’s an important point to me about those values. They are ideas, and rights, that have been paid for dearly with other men’s blood.
Others who defend Irish poppy wearers point out that some of the blood spilt in their defence was Irish – and it was – but that’s not the point. I’m sick of having to justify my poppy with the argument that it’s ok to wear it because “Irish men died as well”. They did, and I honour them, but I would wear it anyway even if they did not.
I wear the poppy because the battle against Nazism was a battle fought on behalf of humanity, and not just on behalf of Britain. I wear it because I’m glad men of all colours and creeds gave their lives to liberate Belsen, and because I’m happy that Europe is free and democratic for the most part. It could have been so different of those men and women had just decided to sit at home.
Some values are universal. If my poppy shows that I stand with those people, and honour their sacrifice, then I don’t care whether it supports the Royal British Legion financially or not, nor whether it is worn by the Queen, or members of the SAS. They wear it out of loyalty to country. I wear it out of respect for a generation who laid down their lives so that my life is free.
Does the poppy commemorate dead Black and Tans as well? Maybe it does. Does it commemorate soldiers lost in action in the six counties? Perhaps. If it were just about those operations, you could count me out, but it’s about much more than that.
Freedom isn’t free. Britain has made many mistakes, but on the two biggest calls of the last hundred years, she got it right. The blood she offered in defence of liberty deserves to be remembered by liberty’s advocates.
John McGuirk blogs at www.mcguirk.eu
LURIG
I agree with you to a point about Unionists\”Loyalists” politicising the poppy. However, it’s similar to the vast majority of decent people in the UK who allowed the St George’s flag to be hi-jacked by the NF/BNP.
Now they are commonly seen and no longer associated with extreme right wing views.
I believe that there is no problem with Nationalists\Catholics wearing poppies. Many Catholics died in both World Wars and should be remembered.
Also, it helps to defeat the myths put around by Unionists that it was only Protestants who fought against Nazism.
My own Grandfather and all his brothers died serving in the Royal Navy.
Frankly, I refused to wear a poppy for many years as a percentage of the money went to the UDR benevolent fund. Why any Catholic would give money to them beats me.
However, since the British govt finally had the sense to dump them, I’m happy to show my respect and support the relatives by wearing a poppy.
Padraig.
In answer to your questions.
“1 Was World War 1 a ‘War of Liberation’?”
The Belgians probably thought so. Arguably the allies were fighting a Just war of self-defence / defence of allies.
2 If World War 2 was a ‘War of Liberation’ were Eastern Europe and China ‘Liberated’?
Short answer to first part of your question is yes. Short answer to the second part of your question is no.
“3 What part did the Treaty of Versailles play in initiating the next war?”
A significant part as a causal factor, although the overwhelming moral responsibility lies with the German Nazis and their supporters and enablers in Germany.
4 What part did the imperialism of European Empires like Britain and the new American Empire cause in starting both world wars?
Not that much.
“This is possibly the silliest and most self indulgent blog I have ever read on Slugger, like it or not the red poppy glorifies war in all its putridity. The fact that after WW1, (probably the most unnecessary and stupid war in history) the victims had to rely on charity, just about sums up why one should not ware a red poppy, it sends out all the wrong messages about warfare and those like Tony Blair who send young people to war on a wicked lie. ”
Most people associate the poppy primarily with WW1 which no one sees as a glorious experience, but rather an example of hell on earth for the huge numbers of terrified young men (British and otherwise) who died. That the soliders in that war were lions led by donkeys does not mean that poppy ‘glorifies war’. The tone of the ceremonies on Nov 11 is a one of quiet, melancholy respect not of triumphal celebration. And as for Tony Blair what is the “lie” you are referring to?
“If you doubt me I suggest you go along to a monument on Nov 11 and you will see the heirs of those who glorified war troop out in all their hypocrisy. They will prattle on about lads dying for the rest of us in places like Afghanistan, when in reality is is absolute tosh, as these young squadies are having there’re their lives stolen by the greedy no good human garbage who sent them there.”
Those in Afghanistan are fighting violent islamism, the most reactionary, backward, totalitarian movement in existence which absolutely opposes all of the core values and principles that any progressives/liberals share. It is one frontline in a global conflict which needs to be, and will be, won – often not by military means. Whilst you may argue about tactics and may make the case (which I would dispute) for immediate or phased withdrawal being the lesser of two evils the idea that those politicians who send them there are “no good human garbage” is idiotic.
“The important thing about war is to remember the living, those who survive, that is what the dead would want. The best thing we could do is stick the charity collecting tins down the toilet where they belong and demand of our politicians that they fund the widows and orphans they have created, plus give adequate medical care for those they have plated a major role in wounding. ”
Governments and politicians do, of course, fund and support widows and orphans. You are suggesting a false choice between government action and charitable activities.
“For christ sake, why do you guys think the politicians and the rich and powerful love charity so much, I will tell you it takes the responsibility off their own shoulders for the hardships they have inflicted on others..”
Many who are not rich or powerful and believe in an interventionist state also organise and/or contribute to charities.
“I will be blunt anyone who attends any of these parades is glorifying war, the military life and encouraging todays politicians to steal other peoples sons and daughters lives. Let the families remember their dead, the living need to look to the future. ”
I’ve dealt with your false assertion about glorification above. As to the other points – are you a pacifist? If so you are a proponent of an intellectually and morally flawed creed – but are at least internally consistent. If not then you accept that wars can be right/justified (not because glorious but the least bad option) in which case it is the job and responsibility of soliders to fight and in some cases to be killed. Politicians have a right / obligation to send other peoples sons and daughters to fight and die in such wars and there is nothing wrong in them so doing. Now we may differ on which wars are or are not but that is a separate point.
“Whilst you may argue about tactics and may make the case (which I would dispute) for immediate or phased withdrawal being the lesser of two evils the idea that those politicians who send them there are “no good human garbage” is idiotic.”
Whilst you may not regard those who sent people to war against the Afghan people as human garbage I do, and I am certain the mothers of the countless innocent Afghans who have been murdered by British weaponry do also.
What right does the British have to decide who governs Afghanistan? Does the Afghan State pose a threat to the UK, no it undoubtedly does not, indeed if Bush had the wit and was not in hoch to the US military industrial complex, and had continued negotiations with the Talaban government, Bin Laden would now be in Jail?
Your talk of violent islamism, and the most reactionary, backward, totalitarian movement is absurd, when the UK military are raining bombs and missiles on Afghan civilians. What do you expect people to do when their loved ones are brutally murdered in this way but fight back? I would like to think we would do the same if we suffered the misfortune of foreign armies on our streets telling us how to live.
Pray tell me who originally armed the most totalitarian, violently islamic, and reactionary militias in Afghanistan, the USA/UK and they have not gone to sleep you know, they are either in Karsi government, having received massive bribes paid for by the US and UK taxpayers; or once the Nato forces withdraw, which they will, this western created scum will turn on the women and other sections of Afghani society who have the misfortune to be without weapon’s to defend themselves.
The arrogance of the UK government and opposition and people who think like you is astounding, our economy is going through the floor, we have major structure problems around essential services and infrastructure, hospitals, schools housing etc, ect, yet we believe we have the right to teach, by force of arms, other folk how to live their lives and run their countries. People I might add who have never done a thing to harm us, Unbelievable !
Thankfully our European neighbours are not so arrogant and stupid. At least they learnt something from WW2.
‘Human garbage’ is ad hominem Mick. As I recall we have had an automatic bar on ‘scum’ in the past, mostly because it was a signal that someone was trying to dehumanise an opponent. A bit of rough and tumble is fine, but I rely on old stagers like yourself to lead the way and play it fair.
Fair enough, god forbid be it I who dehumanise Tony Blair, although some I’m sure might think by his inhuman willingness to go to war at the drop of a hat, his personal greed and his inability to understand he may be unsuitable for job which is based on finding a consensus with all types, not just the wealthy, powerful and thick, may have been the reason why some folk regard him as human garbage.
But as you say not here on slugger, so I will just say I find the likes of Mr Blair and David Lloyd George as extremely greedy and unpleasant fellows, who seem to have a total lack of empathy for their fellow human beings, the more so if they are suffering due to their actions.
All the best
“Whilst you may not regard those who sent people to war against the Afghan people as human garbage I do, and I am certain the mothers of the countless innocent Afghans who have been murdered by British weaponry do also.”
And what of the mothers of those murdered, tortured, attackted, brutalised and oppressed under the Taliban? Or those being allowed to live a normal life again, to go to school? Perhaps they view Western pacifists/anti-imperalists, who would abandon the, as the garbage.
“What right does the British have to decide who governs Afghanistan? Does the Afghan State pose a threat to the UK, no it undoubtedly does not, indeed if Bush had the wit and was not in hoch to the US military industrial complex, and had continued negotiations with the Talaban government, Bin Laden would now be in Jail?”
The moral right lies with the Afghan peope (this is subject to limited caveats to do with voting for governments which attack others – presumably you don’t think the invasion and occupation of Germany by the allies was wrong because inconsistent with possible German support for the Nazis?). The Afghan regime under the Taliban did pose a threat to the UK and US, by providing support and cover to Al Queda. Witness 9/11. I’m surprised that you even think Bin Laden is guilty (as a lot of your lot deny that) but even more surprised that you think the Tablian would have handed him over.
“Your talk of violent islamism, and the most reactionary, backward, totalitarian movement is absurd, when the UK military are raining bombs and missiles on Afghan civilians. What do you expect people to do when their loved ones are brutally murdered in this way but fight back? I would like to think we would do the same if we suffered the misfortune of foreign armies on our streets telling us how to live.”
Where to start. Yes it is the most reactionary, backward and totalitarian movement. No other movement, with the exception of the Neo-nazi Far Right would have supported an attack like 9/11, not the most extreme of national liberation movements like ETA. The UK armed forces are fighting the Taliban guerillas and are not raining bombs or missiles on civillians (clue: it is the Taliban that plant bombs and commit other attacks against civillians). You think suicide bombs in market places and targetting civillians is “fighting back”? (well I suppose you are a Republican so perhaps you do). If I had lived under the Taliban in Afghanistan or in Iraq under Saddam I would welcome liberation and not fight back (I certainly wouldn’t go around murdering civillians who were wholly blameless). The armies are on the streets in Afghanistan and (to the extent that they remain there) Iraq at the invitation of the government and with the tacit support / acceptance of the populace. There role is not to enforce any foreign writ but to maintain peace and then leave when there job is done. They are not telling anyone how to live.
“Pray tell me who originally armed the most totalitarian, violently islamic, and reactionary militias in Afghanistan, the USA/UK and they have not gone to sleep you know, they are either in Karsi government, having received massive bribes paid for by the US and UK taxpayers; or once the Nato forces withdraw, which they will, this western created scum will turn on the women and other sections of Afghani society who have the misfortune to be without weapon’s to defend themselves.”
The anti-Soviet Mujahadeen were supported by the US and included some islamists and others fighting a national liberation war who whilst islamic were not political islamists. They were also supported by many muslims around the world and other countries (including Pakistan). The more extreme Taliban and AQ were largely supported by wealthy islamists in Saudi.
“The arrogance of the UK government and opposition and people who think like you is astounding, our economy is going through the floor, we have major structure problems around essential services and infrastructure, hospitals, schools housing etc, ect, yet we believe we have the right to teach, by force of arms, other folk how to live their lives and run their countries. People I might add who have never done a thing to harm us, Unbelievable ! ”
We are not trying to tell “folk” (I hate that word) how to live their lives or run their countries, we are trying to support them in being able to run their own lives and run their own countries. We are also fighting a war against a global threat (Islamism) the main victims of which are muslims.
“Thankfully our European neighbours are not so arrogant and stupid. At least they learnt something from WW2.”
There were non anglo European forces in Afghanistan and Iraq. Also in Kosovo.
If war mongering is supposed to fuel the economy, then I’d say that they’ve done a poor job these last eight years.
I’ve attended Easter commemorations, I’ve attended Remembrance Day services. I’ve no problem wearing either the Poppy or the Lily as an act of remembrance and acknowledgement. I don’t endorse everything associated with both symbols, but I won’t ignore the pure to avoid the polluted. The White Lily is interesting, but I’m not a pacifist. What amazes me is that there is not a symbol that can be worn by all, in all nations and for all wars, a symbol of remembrance and memory and nothing more.
Maybe a buttonhole of Peasant’s-Eye (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adonis_annua) for sorrowful memories and Edelweiss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leontopodium_alpinum) for courage and noble intent.
“16.I think that the time is long overdue when the British government, British Legion and Royal family publicly stated that they abhor the sectarian politicizing of the poppy in the North of Ireland by Unionist/Loyalist bigots”
And the evidence for this MOPEist self delusion is…..?
“Can I assume that the RBL was able to clear this killer out over the last 12 months? Does anyone have an update or has it just been ignored?
Posted by mytuppenceworth on Nov 02, 2009 @ 09:18 PM”
Can I assume that your admirably consistent and highminded approach is universal, and extends to IRA terrorists in -well, let’s pick an absurd example- the GAA? Hey, let’s go mad and imagine there might be convicted criminals in the government too. Because that is your point, as I understand it- that any institution which has such people in it must be irretrievably corrupted and denounced by all right thinking members of society. Lucky there wasn’t a priest involved in the Claudy bombing, or you’d be attacking Holy Mother Church too!
One dimensional hypocrisy disguised as reasoned debate is overvalued at two pence
“If war mongering is supposed to fuel the economy, then I’d say that they’ve done a poor job these last eight years.”
OC
Perhaps you would be better to check out the balance sheets of the big US military, industrial and security multi nationals, you might get an idea just how good the iraq and Afghan war has been for them.
Brit
It is pointless to debate with someone like you, who first wrongly tags me as a pacifist then refers to me as ‘you lot’ what ever that may mean. One has to have a certain amount of respect for one’s opponent if we are to engage in serious and productive debate, as you have drawn your opinion about me, on guess work, inaccurately I might add, I feel it would be a waste of time for me to pursue this matter. The more so as you have begun to tell lies, as you know full well innocent Afghans have been killed by UK bombs and US drones and missiles.
But hey what is collateral damage to a chap like you, the more so when the victims are muslims. Its the big picture that counts. Well, the big picture is going belly up old son, you remind me of a soviet press attache I used to know at the London embassy during their hopeless excursion to down town Afghanistan.
By the way the anti-Soviet Mujahadeen did not contain ‘some’ islamists, bar the northern war lord, the whole bunch of them were, and are still are islamists politically. The reason the Talaban came into the picture was US intel had lost complete control of their surrogates and the Afghan people where sick to death with the whole bunch of them, bar those who ruled Herat.
Admittedly this took some time, whereas the Afghan people, like the Iraqis before them, became sick of NATO forces almost from day one.
I have expanded my thoughts on Poppy day here
http://www.organizedrage.com/2009/11/red-poppy-signifiesthe-yearly-charade.html
“It is pointless to debate with someone like you, who first wrongly tags me as a pacifist then refers to me as ‘you lot’ what ever that may mean. One has to have a certain amount of respect for one’s opponent if we are to engage in serious and productive debate, as you have drawn your opinion about me, on guess work, inaccurately I might add, I feel it would be a waste of time for me to pursue this matter. The more so as you have begun to tell lies, as you know full well innocent Afghans have been killed by UK bombs and US drones and missiles.”
I didn’t tag you as a pacifist. ‘You lot’ are the Stoppers, the “peace” (heh) movement (you know the one which sometimes supports suicide bombers, esp. when the victims are Jews I mean Israelis), those who the day after 9/11 started saying “yes it was bad…but what has America done to provoke this hatred”. I don’t know why your lot are so obsessed with accusing your opponents of being “liars” but your clear implication before was that the allies were targetting civillians not that civillians have been killed. Civillians were killed by the allies in ww2 and in pretty much all just wars in the last Century. I might well add that you have made assumptions about me and my attitudes which are also inaccurate. And judging from your contribution to this thread I have no respect for your arguments or views (you may be a very nice bloke)
“But hey what is collateral damage to a chap like you, the more so when the victims are muslims. Its the big picture that counts. Well, the big picture is going belly up old son, you remind me of a soviet press attache I used to know at the London embassy during their hopeless excursion to down town Afghanistan.”
Muslims are the main victims of Islamist terrorism, of Islamist regimes and were the main victims of the Ba-athist regime (which you were so opposed to being toppled). The big picture is that AQ has lost its base and had its operational capability sorely damaged. This saves lives and also stops the spectaculars like 9/11 which, sadly, gave AQ some cache within elements of the arab/muslim street. The Afghan regime has gone and Iraq is free from the Ba-athist hell and neutralised as a threat.
Whatever the truth of the US support fo the Mujahadeen it is just another undergraduate debating point like “you funded and armed Saddam” which doesn’t have any bearings on the rightness of wrongness of the toppling of the Taliban and helping to maintain a more peaceful, secure Afghanistan and one which does not threaten to disabilise the entire region.
Its easy to sit on the sidelines condemning everyone, and I’m sure its nice never to have to take responsibility for what would have happened had your policies of non-intervention and appeasement been followed. The holier than thou, smug, aloofness of the likes of Benn who prefer to condemn than to actually struggle with the compromises and challenges of real power and reallychanging the world represents the worst parts of the Left – a democratic, transformative movement of which I am proud to be part.
“Perhaps you would be better to check out the balance sheets of the big US military, industrial and security multi nationals, you might get an idea just how good the iraq and Afghan war has been for them.”
A very small part of the economy.
Compare to the financial standing of GM, Ford, Alcoa, US Steel, Singer Sewing Machine, etc., at the end of WWII.
Recessions are common at the end of major conflicts, but we seem to now have a new paradigm.
Brit,
“- a democratic, transformative movement of which I am proud to be part.”
Yes, good auld Karzai, the ballot stuffer, and his brother, the Heroin King and employee of the intelligence services.
Perhaps the poppy logo is relevant – just think of your proud movement every time you pass a junkie on the street that’s whacked out on the cheap smack from Afghanistan.
looks like he’s also representing the Queens Hussars these days….
http://www.thequeensownhussars.co.uk/old_comrades.htm
……. and we thought that the only killers who now wear a new hat were those voted for by nationalists.
Cushy, you seem to agree with me that the poppies are exclusive to the unionist side. It’s so simple then why does ITV insist on teenagers having to wear them on X Factor?
More to the point, why has there been an increase in poppies in the last 20 years? Very few wore them in the 80′s, certainly very few football managers did, now they all do. It’s probably a dulling of individual thought and an increased acceptance of media opinion as ‘accepted’ behaviour.
Remember before the Berlin Wall came down when politburo folk came on TV with lots of badges and emblems on their lapels we used laugh at their drone-like behaviour and acceptance of Kermlin propaganda….. looks like it’s repeated in Ol’ Blighty these days… fools!!
mytuppenceworth
Whilst not being against individual choice your sentiments do worry me also, seems a bit of coercion going on throughout the media that you cannot, cannot appear without putting a poppy on.
Whilst I do wear the poppy and have done so for as long as I can remember I do think there is a level of ‘sheep’ mentality with some people wearing it to be seen to be doing the right thing, or to show they are of the “right sort”.
The pressure on those in the media to wear the Poppy is also a bit silly and I agree with PE that it should be a matter for each individual.
“You know the one which sometimes supports suicide bombers, esp. when the victims are Jews.”
Brit
Oh dear;, my family name on my mothers side is Beckstein. If you get my drift, do your self a favor and stop digging.
“Cushy, you seem to agree with me that the poppies are exclusive to the unionist side. It’s so simple then why does ITV insist on teenagers having to wear them on X Factor?”
Where did I say that? I imagine Ken Livingstone, Tony Benn, or George Galloway might feel inclined to wear a poppy, though no friends of mine. I’ve no idea why the X factor wanted the non entities on it to wear poppies, but I’ll bet it wasn’t because Worshipful Brother Cowell thought it would slap it up the papishes.
“More to the point, why has there been an increase in poppies in the last 20 years? Very few wore them in the 80’s, certainly very few football managers did, now they all do. It’s probably a dulling of individual thought and an increased acceptance of media opinion as ‘accepted’ behaviour.”
Perhaps. But then a lot more people wear red noses on tv than they did 20 years ago. It is a bit bizarre that son of Franco’s Spain Rafa Benitez wears a poppy, but again you’ll struggle to prove that his bosses are sniggering quietly at having put one over him. The last time I checked, Liverpool FC hadn’t been owned by an Orangeman for over a century.
“seems a bit of coercion going on throughout the media that you cannot, cannot appear without putting a poppy on.”
You mean like Dara O’Brian on BBC 1 last night who must have sneakily whipped his off as he sat on Christine Bleakely’s couch? I think Graham Norton did wear one, but of course he’s only a west Brit.
You guys are so precious, you make Derrymen look stoical