When talk isn’t cheap…
COMEDIAN David Mitchell pontificates upon Scots Gaelic and taxpayer funding, although the argument could perhaps be applied to Northern Ireland… but to Irish or Ulster-Scots?
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The peace process not such a good model after all
Which reminds me…. Platform for Change’s driving force Robin Wilson has produced a corrective to the notion that the lessons of the NI conflict are easily exportable. Like myself, Robin is associated with the Constitution Unit. He introduced his new book in a CU blog which I here reproduce. The water crisis in Northern Ireland [...] read our review »
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“I loathe Ireland and the Irish.”
In the Irish Times, Brian Cosgrove takes up temporary residence in An Irishman’s Diary in the hope that, with the lifting of European copyright restrictions on James Joyce’s major works, a greater familiarity with Joyce’s ”sometimes ruthless realism” may change the nature of the “annual Edwardian charade” that is Bloomsday. From the Irish Times The devastating cultural effects [...] read our review » -
“Unionism Decayed 1997-2007″ by David Vance: book review
I initially wrote this when the book was first published three years ago; whilst certain elements of it now sound dated, its basic premise that the period of 1997-2007 was a period of irreversible decay for Northern Irish Unionism can still be argued as a valid opinion. My own feeling is that it did indeed [...] read our review »
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different language = different languages
“If Scots is merely a dialect of English, then Norwegian is merely a dialect of Danish, and Estonian merely a dialect of Finnish, itself merely a dialect of Lapp.
Now, whether anybody is monolingual in Scots is a different question. ”
Not really. Scots was for the great, great majority of history referred to by its own speakers as English (Inglis). Its speakers also self-identified as English and referred to themselves as such. Thus the region of Scotland from which Scots originally spread – the Lothians in the south east- was historically known as “the land of the English in the Kingdom of the Scots” and was thus distinguished by its people who were ethnically and linguistically English as opposed to the rest of the population of Scotland were were ethnically and linguistically Scottish (Gaelic). It was not until well after the Wars of Independence were won and Scotlands sovereignty assured that the English population of Scotland started to identify itself ethnically as Scottish. It wasn’t until even later that they stopped referring to their dialect of English as English and instead assumed the name “Scottish” which, before than, had referred to Gaelic which is the Scottish language. If Scots is a dialect it is a dialect of English. If Scots is a distinct language then it is an English language in the same way that Irish, Manx and Scottish Gaelic are all Gaelic languages.
“don’t agree with him, but the utterly stupid manplaying above obviously standss in leiu of a counter argument.”
Fair enough but I get fed up with commentators talking so smugly about the death of a living language which many people are performing minor miracles to ensure it’s survival. But no excuse for lack of civility.
Big Maggie
“Having said that, I think he’s very much wide of the mark here. Minor languages are national treasures and ought to be treated with the sort of reverence we extend to properties protected by the National Trust. Gallic, like Irish, is a rich and fascinating language, so different from English and laden with a history all its own.”
Completely agree
Also the language skills you learn with a second language when young make learning more languages easier.
Its going to be tough for the ones who all have to learn Mandarin.
Costello
“If Scots is a dialect it is a dialect of English. If Scots is a distinct language then it is an English language in the same way that Irish, Manx and Scottish Gaelic are all Gaelic languages.”
I think “an Anglic language” is the term.
What we have here is a well known argument in Northern Ireland, usually associated with some such phrase as “They’re not loyal to the Crown, but they are to the half-crown.”
Basically the idea is that the Exchequer extracts money from all without discrimination, Nationalist and Unionist, but that money, once in the public hands, becomes decent Protestant Unionist money (as proven by the fact that it bears the Queen’s head) and the spending of it on workshy Fenians and their leprechaunish culture makes the angels in heaven weep tears of blood. In this case, the idea is that money is de-caledonianised by passing through the public purse. The Scottish Gaels get back from the exchequer for the use of Gaelic culture much the same as they put into it.
Friends of mine in the Isle of Lewis say things have changed much for the better since the Scottish Parliament came into being. Where everything was once depressing and moribund, a little injection of public cash has put life back into the culture. Gaelic matters in Scotland: ministers are concerned about it. In England plenty of people don’t even know it exists.
Scots is both a language, and an accent of English among people whose ancestors spoke Scots. People confuse the accent, and the few residual Scotticisms thrown in with it like ‘press’ for cupboard etc, with the full-blown language which is not used in any context I can think of any more. It was reckoned to be a language because it was different enough from spoken English as to render efficient communication impossible until the differences had been learnt. The Scots may have called their language Inglis, but the Dutch call theirs Duits, which is much the same as German Deutsch, but still felt to be a different tongue.
I think Mitchell is mistaken but he expresses his opinion calmy and without the invective that usually accompanies this kind of commentary. And you’ve got to love anyone who comes up with sketches like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwXjm64a3QE
“The Scottish Gaels get back from the exchequer for the use of Gaelic culture much the same as they put into it.”
Nope– Scotland NI and Wales (and SW England and NE England and NW England) are all in Tax deficit to SE England
SE England carries all the dud areas.
The Scots may have called their language Inglis, but the Dutch call theirs Duits, which is much the same as German Deutsch, but still felt to be a different tongue.
Niet zo. De taal is Nederlands genoemd. Duits is… German.
“Diets(ch)” is een verouderde vorm, en wordt met Vlaamse nationalisme van de jaren dertig geassocieerd.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietsch
“Diets(ch)” is een verouderde vorm, en wordt met Vlaamse nationalisme van de jaren dertig geassocieerd.
I suppose this makes it Nazi? Well the 1930s may seem like the Middle Ages to you, but its only yesterday for some poor buggers. The pattern is the same: The Scots started using the word Inglis, and eventually called it Scots: the earlier Netherlanders would have said Dietsch, but eventually called in Nederlands. Similarly Yiddish, known by that title and as mama loshen to contemporary Speakers, was Taytsh in earlier documents.
SE England carries all the dud areas.
Oh yeah, what about Scotland’s oil?
Mike,
“an Anglic language”
I thought that was the Enochian Calls for dylectics :^)
Paddy Matthews,
Goed gezegd, jochie!
dyslectics even! :^(
“SE England carries all the dud areas”
Yeah right – bankers have done us well….in fact I reckon we owe £30,000 each because of the wonderful SE…
“Brea, bûter, en griene tsiis is goed Ingelsk en goed Frysk.”
This translates as “Bread, butter, and green cheese is good English and good Frisian”.
So I guess then, Maggie, that the billions of people speak a mere dialect of Frisian.
See that some folk are so offended by the Irish language that they set fire to 3 prefabs where Irish is taught to children.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/8226254.stm
Probaly felt that the “British Empire” in Northern Ireland is under threat by the Irish language.
Afrikaans was then presunmably known originally as “Nederlands” before the Voortrekkers set off in their oxwagons to build new settlements to the north far from the British influences of the Cape? And as these “European Africans” became settled on the new continent they began to call their language African?
As for Lynch’s rant, it’s nothing new. His other pet hate is the GAA which he slags off at every available opportunity. Like his colleagues at the same rag, Harris, Dudley-Edwards, O’Connor, Myers, O’Hanlon and the rest of O’Reilly’s pond life lap-dogs he enjoys being controversial simply to provoke a reaction, which he knows he’ll get from anyone prepared to rise to the bait. In fact he’s such an expert at laying bait he deserves the title of master-baiter. His attitude is fairly typical of a certain section of the Dublin 4 mindset, who have contempt for most aspects of Irish culture – ie GAA, music, the language, etc as they think it’s a threat to their supposedly cosmopolitan and sophisticated outlook.
I tried to provoke a discussion on some earlier GAA threads about the attitude of the chattering classes in some of the leafier Dublin suburbs towards the GAA – ie one of utter contempt and derision, deriving largely from snobbery and a superiority complex – but (frustratingly) no-one seemed interested in discussing this.
As regards David Mitchell, I’m a big fan of Peep Show, but I think that sketch show he does with Webb is utter shite. I’ve seen him on Question Time and found him to be quite impressive. I also enjoy his column in the Observer. He’s certainly very talented, but not a particularly good comedian. It looks like he’s in danger of becoming the new Stephen Fry, another Oxbridge-educated comic intellectual too clever by half smartarse Jack-of-all-trades character who’s never off the TV.
OC,
“So I guess then, Maggie, that the billions of people speak a mere dialect of Frisian.”
You may guess what you wish but I doubt whether they do. I also have a smattering of Frisian and it’s very much closer to English than Dutch is. However, I can neither speak it nor write it. I simply understand a great deal of it.
That’s again my rule of thumb. Rightly or wrongly it demonstrates to me that Frisian is a separate language, not a dialect.
Posted by Big Maggie on Aug 28, 2009 @ 01:28 PM, quo she:
“If I as an anglophone can read or understand Scots without any difficulty then it’s a dialect and not a separate language.”
Posted by Big Maggie on Aug 29, 2009 @ 12:35 AM, quo she:
“I also have a smattering of Frisian… I can neither speak it nor write it. I simply understand a great deal of it.”
So help me out here, Maggie.
Can you speak or write Scots? Or do you “simply understand a great deal of it”?
OC,
A fair question. I can neither speak nor write Scots but I can read it without difficulty. Robbie Burns’s poetry doesn’t need a translation for me. Why? Because it’s English.
But let me be plain here. I understand Frisian because I speak Dutch; I understand Scots because I speak English.
Oddly enough, I understand Catalan because I speak French. But that’s a discussion for another day :^)
Many comparisons gang aft agley, but I won’t belabour the point for auld lang syne.
My experience with Frisian was in Amsterdam. A Dutchman told me that his girlfriend was Frisian, and when she spoke on the phone with her parents in Frisian, he not a word understood.
Again, it’s debatable whether anyone living today is monoglot Braid Scots.
14.“SE England carries all the dud areas”
Yeah right – bankers have done us well….in fact I reckon we owe £30,000 each because of the wonderful SE…
Er we are talking about Tax take– where it is raised (most in the SE)where it is spent and how the deficit areas( NI WALES NW etc) get back more than they pay. Do try to keep up.
“Er we are talking about Tax take—where it is raised (most in the SE)where it is spent and how the deficit areas( NI WALES NW etc) get back more than they pay. Do try to keep up.”
Yes a tax take from a finance sector whose bail-out has cost the rest of us billions.
A few years ago when holidaying in the Britain and Ireland we went well out of our way to visit Skye to hear Scots Gaelic spoken. We also visited Pollatomish in Mayo and Ballydavid near Dingle to hear Irish, I’m sure plenty of other tourists do the same. Having these languages around does have economic benefits
Just to nail my colours to the mast–as if they needed more nails–it was good to hear a reasonably-well-thought take on Gàidhlig and Scots that was practically identical to my own opinions about our local flavours.
One important difference is that, despite agreeing that the fundamental function of language is communication, I’d have no problem teaching my child a minority/dying/dead language or learning one myself. I simply don’t believe knowledge, or personal endeavour, has to justify itself–and certainly not to its practical application amongst the masses–as long as you’re not asking someone else to pay your way.
23.“Er we are talking about Tax take—where it is raised (most in the SE)where it is spent and how the deficit areas( NI WALES NW etc) get back more than they pay. Do try to keep up.”
Yes a tax take from a finance sector whose bail-out has cost the rest of us billions.
In fact it has cost wales ni etc fuck all— the subventions remain -you get out more than you pay in and the SE picks up the bill -again.
Whay they continue to do it is beyond me- A resounding FUCK OFF is clearly in order
No worries Barnshee – bring it on.
0b
I simply don’t believe knowledge, or personal endeavour, has to justify itself—and certainly not to its practical application amongst the masses—as long as you’re not asking someone else to pay your way.
Which is nice but once again: speakers of minority languages also pay taxes. And the sums asked for are minimal, generally.