More bonfires..
Londonderry seems to have been the setting for most of the internment anniversary bonfires this weekend. Some, if not all, of which, according to the BBC report, were allowed to burn themselves out because they were “under supervision”. The report also claims that the fire service were unable to approach this bonfire at the flyover on Lecky Road, complete with tyres, Union flags and what the Sunday Life describes as “a portrait of a Church of Ireland Bishop”, because “the road was blocked”. But why was it allowed to be built on a public road in the first place? An Irish News report from 2006 [Google cache] notes that in that year the bonfire was moved to waste ground “after serious structural damage was caused to the flyover [in 2005].” Adds According to our knowledgable commenters, it was a portrait of this Bishop of Derry. Which is odd.. Update Apparently, the portrait was “stolen from a hoarding outside St Columb’s Cathedral several weeks ago.” And Gary has a closer look at the Bishop. With better photos..
How can the PSNI allow folk to build such bonfires. Surely this is both dangerous and illegal….as well as sectarian. Time to end the likes of this and the annual 11th bonfire night.
BTW, look all those Union flags. I wonder did those Irish Nationalists go out and buy all those Union flags or do most Irish Nationalists in NI keep an odd Union flag or two lying about the house.
Bloody idiots, the lot of them!
Gréagóir O Frainclín
Probably just get them off the lamposts Grag
One point in favour of bonfires is that they burn flags.
Perhaps the PSNI should insist on at least 100 flags per 10 foot of bonfire.
How can the PSNI allow folk to build such bonfires
The PSNI are not the problem.
The absence of leadership from politicians is.
“BTW, look all those Union flags. I wonder did those Irish Nationalists go out and buy all those Union flags or do most Irish Nationalists in NI keep an odd Union flag or two lying about the house.”
No, apparently, there has been a craze of flag raiding in Derry this summer.
Loyalist youth from the fontain and republican youth from the bogside have indulging in a modern interpretation of the Tain.
Raiding flags from the other sides areas then posting photos of the spoils on bebo before burning them on bonfires.
Comrade Stalin,
“The PSNI are not the problem.”
They are very much the problem. Every workday after 6pm they’re setting speedtraps on the A1 where there are roadworks. The 40mph limit is there to protect the roadworkers—who are of course conspicuous by their absence at 6pm or even earlier.
So if the PSNI can waste manpower on that, where were they when that bonfire on Lecky Road was being built?
I’m complaining to the police ombudsman. Here’s his email: info@policeombudsman.org
I suggest others do likewise.
I see no one has mentioned that the anniversary of British troops entering NI is the 15 Aug, from the early 80′s that’s why Taghnaven in Lurgan held a bonfire on the 14th night. Kilwilkie estate had a fire this year on the 14th, though they had always held it on the 8th on previous years. So I suspect they’re in contact with their Derry conterparts. Taghnaven on the other hand hold a festival for the kids over two days and have for the last 10 years, so there is progress in some areas.
I’m interested to know when both sides actually started having bonfires, I suspect loyalists have been having them longer?
An Lorgain,
Nationalists erect the bonfires to celebrate the anniversary of internment without trial, which commenced in 1971, so I would hazard a guess that the fires were lit for the first time in August of ’72.
For the Unionists it’s obviously to mark the Battle of the Boyne, and has most likely been going for much longer. I can find no more specific answer on the web, though I’m not looking that hard.
Sinn Fein have made many changes over the years, for which many of us will be grateful. However it’s hard to ignore the blatant hypocrisy of their various positions regarding the dissidents. They are described as traitors for carrying out acts which could be straight from the history of the IRA – if they had carried out the attack on Masereene they would have been crowing about it for months.
I recall attending the Beechmount bonfire a couple of times, it wasn’t a spectacular event, nothing happened. There was a lot of beer involved, and I’m sure that the people living around the wasteground could have done without it, but at the same time there was no violence or hassle. Point being though, the chucks didn’t voice any concerns back then.
I pointed this out on another thread, but I would in all honesty expect to see a visible slide in support away from SF towards the dissidents in the near future. As has been pointed out on this site many times, the Adam’s line that we will be in a 32 county united socialist republic in our lifetimes is beginning to look like a lie.
Nationalist areas are sliding down the shitter with a lack of punishment beatings/shootings coupled to the PSNI’s inablilty or unwillingness to tackle crime in our areas. The dissidents (so called dissidents according to Maskey) will step in to fill that role IMO.
Sinn Fein stay away because they know that they will be laughed at if they attempted to prevent a bonfire.
“No, apparently, there has been a craze of flag raiding in Derry this summer.
Loyalist youth from the fontain and republican youth from the bogside have indulging in a modern interpretation of the Tain.
Raiding flags from the other sides areas then posting photos of the spoils on bebo before burning them on bonfires. ”
If I was 14, I could see that being a lot of fun.
Apparently, the portrait was “stolen from a hoarding outside St Columb’s Cathedral several weeks ago.”
I’ve had a go at discussing this on my blog, along with a closer photo of the Bishop’s portrait.
Good post Gary.
I’ve added a link to the original post here.
An Lorgain,
“I’m interested to know when both sides actually started having bonfires”
This would have been shortly after the race learned to walk upright. The bonfire was lit to propitiate the sungod.
You can see how most of us have moved on since then, leaving only pockets of little men who never quite grew up.
The bonfires are just symbolic of the divisions between the tribes; but if there’s not a concerted effort by whomever will assume the responsibility (PSNI, MLA’s, paramilitary commanders, politicians: SF, UPRG, DUP, UUP, TUV, SDLP, etc.,) to bring about a significant reduction in these annual rites, where else can one make a visible, “on the ground” change?
Education might be one place, but sorting that quagmire out will be decades in the doing and forced integration has historically not worked (i.e. bussing in the States in the 1960′s onward for racial integration).
Expanding mixed housing in those estates controlled by the housing executive could lead to a better understanding between the divergent groups, but that would also be a long and arduous process, which may have very unintended consequences along the way (i.e. – more violence in places like south Belfast, which recently engaged in expelling 20 or so Roma families).
The feeling I get from where I sit, which is, I admit, a large distance geographically and otherwise, is that the momentum of the GFA, the feel-good atmosphere that surrounded the decommissioning of weapons by the PIRA, the positive image of Paisley and McGuinness, of all people, working together or at least giving the impression of doing so, has eroded significantly. There is the murder in Coleraine of Kevin McDaid, the murder of the two soldiers and the PSNI officer by “dissident” republicans, the south Belfast expulsion of the Roma families, the attacks on Orange Halls and GAA grounds in north Antrim, etc. There seems to be a rising level of tension across the board.
If there were to be a concerted effort by WHOMEVER has the where-with-all to go to the local neighborhoods and exert their influence on those who build the bonfires to give it a rest, and if done across the board, unionist/loyalist and nationalist/republican alike, perhaps there would be a very visible change in the status quo. Where that could lead is anybody’s guess, but the status quo is not leading anyone anywhere productive.
I would think that if the powers-that-be provide designated sites for bonfires in the interest of public safety and watnot, then they can’t be accused of depriving people of what they regard as being an integral part of their culture if they acted to remove non-compliant bonfires. Other than that, the State has no business interfering in this area. It certainly shouldn’t interfere to censor bonfires from popular culture because its political elite think hiding the symptoms is the most expedient ‘cure.’
oldruss: “Education might be one place, but sorting that quagmire out will be decades in the doing and forced integration has historically not worked (i.e. bussing in the States in the 1960’s onward for racial integration).”
Not the best of examples — for example, Boston was horribly conflicted, but that was more a matter of a solution that liberal suburbs essentially imposed upon the city without accepting accountability for the solution, since they limited it to the city of Boston, so that their districts were protected from busing. In a real sense, while the residents of Southie and similar districts were unleashed upon the bused children, their anger was with the very white legislators, judges and bureaucrats who imposed them upon them.
Dave: “I would think that if the powers-that-be provide designated sites for bonfires in the interest of public safety and watnot, then they can’t be accused of depriving people of what they regard as being an integral part of their culture if they acted to remove non-compliant bonfires. Other than that, the State has no business interfering in this area. It certainly shouldn’t interfere to censor bonfires from popular culture because its political elite think hiding the symptoms is the most expedient ‘cure.’ ”
Bonfires should be subject to the whole regime of bureaucratic involvement, from fire safety, environmental protection (tires) and health (the other assorted shite that falls into some bonfires). A surety bond against damages should be a requirement, as is the involvement of the fire service.
If you’re gonna live in quango land, at least make the quangos earn their pay
“12.I’ve had a go at discussing this on my blog, along with a closer photo of the Bishop’s portrait. ”
I prefered the ‘Are Catholics Christians post’, when you pose the question, ‘refuse’ to answer your own question (for now apprently), then quote a book with some sort of statistic that apparently would lead people to the conclusion they are not.
I know Anglicans are supposed to hold ‘a faint conviction’, but really, let your inner Jack Chick out man
DC, providing designated bonfire sites does require any more regulation than that. The slippery slope to full quango-isation is nonsense. Some folks regard dressing up as women or Judy Garland and marching down public streets on gay pride parades as culture and others regard bonfires as the same. At the end of the day, it is these groups who decide what is and what is not their culture. So the aim is to accommodate them, not ban them.
“I’m complaining to the police ombudsman. Here’s his email: info@policeombudsman.org
I suggest others do likewise.”
Good one. Well done Big Maggie!
Dave,
The bonfires symbolize, for many, an “in your face” tradition, which hardly reduces tensions, and, to the contrary, exacerbates them. They may well be part and parcel of the “culture” of the six counties; but that culture is badly in need of redeffinition. If they can be limited to specific sites, and reduced in numbers proportionally, that might create a less contentious atmosphere in which other changes could be attempted. The bonfires are very visible symbols, which, if they were less intrusive, could be less of a pretext for those inclined to “stir the pot”.
Dread Cthulhu, integration in education has largely been a futile and counter-productive effort here in the States. You are correct that Southie bore the brunt of the bussing in the 1960′s, and the lilly white suburbs surrounding Boston were spared, just as they were in most metropolitian areas, Cleveland, Detroit, etc. being examples.
Intergration of the parallel school systems in the six counties could work towards creating a less contentious relationship among the next generation. I’m not familiar enough with the geography of the school systems in Belfast, for example, to know whether or not students from east Belfast would be bussed to west Belfast to accomplish intergration of controlled schools (Protestant) and maintained schools (Catholic). Nevertheless, even without the physical transfer of students by bus, just imposing integration in a unified system would be tramatic and fraught with land-mines, IMO.
What I see is the current cycles of bonfires and marches all contributing to a ratcheting up of tensions; and would hope that there are those who can and will intervene to alter the status quo for the better, however that seems best accomplished by those most affected.
Where are the environMENTALists to complain about the tyres on top of the bonfire?
Indeed, and where are the Christian fundaMENTALists to complain about the religous iconography on top of the bonfire?
dave: “providing designated bonfire sites does require any more regulation than that. The slippery slope to full quango-isation is nonsense. Some folks regard dressing up as women or Judy Garland and marching down public streets on gay pride parades as culture and others regard bonfires as the same. At the end of the day, it is these groups who decide what is and what is not their culture. So the aim is to accommodate them, not ban them. ”
I’m not talking banning them… I’m talking about holding the folks who build the bonfires accountable for the fire damage, environmental damage (burning tires, etc.), health violations (assorted other biological waste / garbage) and the like.
I have no interest in banning the bonfires, but, that said, if they can’t handle a bonfire in a responsible fashion, there is no reason the rate-payers should have to pay to clean up after these nimrods when they damage their own estates with their idiocy.