Rights of self determination v belong to individuals not people. They may be expressed collectiovely but they are individual rights so how they define themselevs is up to them.

“I think Unionism has taken a step backwards and nationalism hasn’t really gone anywhere.”

I dont think that collectively anyone has really gone anywhere. The DUPs have moved on to start talking but their position and underlying angst hasn’t changed. SF talk a good game but their grievous lack of depth in policy and skills is ever more apparent.

Neither of them is prepared to try and lead their co0nstituencies towards a better place somewhere in the middle.

Even away from ‘the national question’ politics at Stormont hasnt developed. Its appalling to liten to the debates on TV and sometimes hear the grunts catcalls and occasional animal noises being made while some MLAs are speaking. There is no drive to betetr servcies unles it involves spending huge more amounts of public money. The only progress seems to be that they now go to Downing Street and Millbank to wave the begging bowl together

The surprise for me is that Sinn Fein and the SDLP have not largely re-defined their politics.

Perhaps because of the 4 (or 5) cornered political set-up, parties are in a sort of gravitationally forced straight jacket as far as developing their political agendas.

If Sinn Fein do not at least double their support in the south within the next 10-15 years they will be dependent on finding (suitable) southern partners.

Although having other political partners is extremely risky and will lead to some loss of support, it is the only way to practically have a permanent non ignorable Ireland wide dimension to the northern state (in the absence of a 20% support base in the south).

The SDLP would do well to beat them to it and merge with the Irish labour party.

If they did this they would lose some support but Sinn Fein will have nowhere to go politically except move closer to Fianna Fail that will cause more problems with its own support base.

Alternatively, if Sinn Fein cannot see itself getting 20% of the southern vote by itself (and that looks to be the case) it should look very quickly at forming a co-alition with labour, or else risking a split and moving closer to Fianna Fail.

A larger island wide party or co-alition would have access to more political ideas, more European clout, more governing experience, more global political and commercial connections and a more widely recognised ability to tackle the big questions facing the future.

Much more than the induced straight jacket of political parties at present.

“Your final point is centred around the Protestant poplulation being likely to ‘dwindle and assimilate’ and now you say you don’t think the population will dwindle. I am now confused as to what you are saying.”

Re-read my comments. I’m not talking about Protestants – you are. I’m talking about Unionism as a political belief dwindling post-reunification. You are being deliberately obtuse so as to force a debate on religious terms. Not interested thanks.

Re your family: you’re claiming knowledge of the experiences of the wider Protestant community in the Republic based on one family in the (border county of) Cavan. THAT is simplistic and naive.

This is exactly the point that Dave is hammering on about.Many in the south who have traditionally supported a united Ireland may no longer do so as it is becoming easier to envisage the form it may take.The idea that there would be a british tinge may be easy for northern Replublicans to accept simply because it is better than what they presently have, but southern republicans see in it but a ceding of their nationality to northern protestants who understand their “Irishness’ in the same way as others understand there leftyness and or rightness.
Where I would take issue with Dave’s view is on North-south bodies.I defy him to cite Irish government projects that have been diluted into nsmc, as I can only see a duplication in case of agreement and silence in case of unionist intrangience.
Once again, the solution is an English parliament and so the establishment of equilibrium between North-South and East-west where east is ni and not Island of Ireland .

Agreed.But the those who declare themselves British and Irish in the same breath are clearly impinging on the Irish peoples right to self-determination.It is obviously an internal British problem and I wish Mr.Salmond the best of luck in his endeavours.However,it is clear that an english parliament is the necessary step in ridding us all of the westminister empire mentality.

The problem has always been the existence of large numbers of geographically concentrated British Protestants in Ireland. I don’t think it’s a new development that they regard themselves as part of a different nation (British). The hard part was always going to be building a new Irish nation that included them along with those who already regarded themselves as part of the Irish nation (“Uniting Catholic, Protestant under the common name of Irishman”). By and large that effort has failed so far. But that is what you rail against when you speak out against Unity because it means extending the British nation into the Irish nation. It does to a degree and always did, because it involves (and always did) a Belgian or Swiss style merger of nationalities into something new. Tone just happened to call that new nation Irish. It could never mean forcing Gaelic native Irish culture on the descendants of the planters.

The US Republicans were bidding fair to handing Dubya the powers of an absolute monarch, so I suppose we can conclude that the GOP are republican in name only.

absolute gibberish.you’re basically saying the nation that doesnt have a nation doesnt have a nation.you don’t say…

I would be interested in hearing your folks in Cavan’s experience in the Free State post partition.
There is another current thread where Objectivist is telling me that Protestants in the south had nothing to complain about compared to Catholics in the north.

What were your relatives’ experiences ?

Your final point is centred around the Protestant poplulation being likely to ‘dwindle and assimilate’ and now you say you don’t think the population will dwindle. I am now confused as to what you are saying.

My point was that ‘dwindle and assimilate’ is far from the process that my folks in Cavan would be describe in relation to Protestant life in the Free State/republic since partition, and therefore your propostion (by my observation) is simplistic and naive.

I think you’re trying to imply that I’m trying to get rid of Potestants or something. Nothing could be further from the truth – I’m from a half and half family and went to Protestant schools all my life – most of my friends are Protestant. I myself am an atheist so would have no interest in trying to push a Catholic agenda.

This is the age old problem; trying to differentiate someone’s religion from their political beliefs. I don’t think, and I fervently hope, that the Protestant population of Ireland would not dwindle. BUT people like going with the crowd and I think that in a UI there would be a lot of moderate unionists who would just start voting for an all Ireland party so that their vote counted more.

Furthermore, cultural aspects such as all-Ireland television channels, music charts and educational systems would help north and south integrate, much as they have served to divide over the past 80 years.

But honestly she should think herself lucky. In the past and in the North many other young people were conned into murdering their fellow Irishmen for ‘the cause’. Many of them ended up spending the best years of their lives in prison or starving themselves to death just to put Shinners into well upholstered seats in Stormont. Now they find that their former Generals have even conveniently forgotten that they played any role in the military campaign. Perhaps they just dont want to hog all the ‘glory’.

But Louise needs to even think a bit harder about how she was indoctrinated and used. She has even swallowed the biggest Shinner con of all – that its all about ‘Brits Out’ in the North.

The reality is that the English would we off like a shot given half a chance. The Nationalist problem is that 1 m Prods who live here arent going away and feel more of a British identity than an Irish one – a position that has ben hardened by 30 years of violence.

Has Louise ever been to Belfast and spoken to a real Prod? Deluding onself about the true nature of ‘the problem’ doesnt help any of us find a way forward on this island.

As for Scamallach, “dwindle and assimilate” is not how my folks in Cavan would describe their history since partition.

Your problem as I see it is you owe more allegiance to the island called Ireland than the people who live there. All who occupy it should serve that mother earth god and as in the past satisfy its blood lust with the sacrifice of its young men.

I dont know what your last name is but i know Adams ancestors probably came over on the same boat as mine – along with probably most of the northern SF and PIRA leadership. Therefore most people in modern Ireland know its too late to start talking racially about “cuckoos in the nest”.

Anyhow the flow of Gaels, Celts, Vikings, Saxons and others to and between these islands over the millenia most people basically are of the opinion that the vast majority of people living here now are legally entitled to do so.

As for the Irish Nation State the concept of an unified Irish Kingdom was invented by the British and it only ever existed – with a capital in Dublin – under British Rule. That was fully cemented into the British State by the Act of The Union in 1800.

In other words the concept of the British Nation State in Ireland actually pre-dates the concept of an Irish Nation State in Ireland. Therefore you are a couple of hundred years too late.

There was no independent Irish Nation State in Ireland in the terms you are defining it – ie as everyone living in Ireland subserviant to the territory included on the island.

What you are really arguing about is the people who live there choosing their own personal allegiance – those who see the Irish Nation State as defined by the 26 counties and those who see the British State as defined by the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

I agree though some of the six county nationalists have been deluded (which may be what you are inferring to)in that because they can hold an Irish passport, can be Irish President or play for the ROI football team they are as part of the Irish Nation State as anyone from the 26 counties is.

However what would you have done – had no Agreement with northern Irish unionists and continued an armed struggle ?

All the SF bashers on this site dont appear to have a workable alternative – they just bitch off about a bad deal and betraying of past principals.

As I asked you earlier – do you believe they should have continued with the “Armed Struggle” to enforce the right of the “Irish Nation” to drive the British State out of Northern Ireland ?