In one sentence, what does the 12th mean to you?
I’ll be asking this of people at the parades or protests or wherever on the 12th (13th) but lets have your answers here. One sentence only on ‘what the 12th means to you’…..
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The peace process not such a good model after all
Which reminds me…. Platform for Change’s driving force Robin Wilson has produced a corrective to the notion that the lessons of the NI conflict are easily exportable. Like myself, Robin is associated with the Constitution Unit. He introduced his new book in a CU blog which I here reproduce. The water crisis in Northern Ireland [...] read our review »
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“I loathe Ireland and the Irish.”
In the Irish Times, Brian Cosgrove takes up temporary residence in An Irishman’s Diary in the hope that, with the lifting of European copyright restrictions on James Joyce’s major works, a greater familiarity with Joyce’s ”sometimes ruthless realism” may change the nature of the “annual Edwardian charade” that is Bloomsday. From the Irish Times The devastating cultural effects [...] read our review » -
“Unionism Decayed 1997-2007″ by David Vance: book review
I initially wrote this when the book was first published three years ago; whilst certain elements of it now sound dated, its basic premise that the period of 1997-2007 was a period of irreversible decay for Northern Irish Unionism can still be argued as a valid opinion. My own feeling is that it did indeed [...] read our review »
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“In one sentence, what does the 12th mean to you?”
Kings, Killers, Lily etc……….
……..all at the Qxygen festival in Co Kildare.
BTW, more of a cultural importance to these islands…Dan Snow how the Celts Saved Britain….
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/5369864/Dan-Snow-How-Britain-nearly-became-the-Irish-Isles.html
Seen it Gragoir, fascinating viewing, particularly the bit about the origins of the Saxons, Jutes, Fresians and Angles – which is where the term anglo comes from. Plus always wondered why Martyr’s Bay was so called.
Oh indeed Republican Stones, recognition finally given where it’s due, the “Celtic Church” of Ireland.
Even this aspect of Irish archeology and history falling victim to W.A.S.P.-ish, Anglo-Centric British Imperialism over the centuries.
A day when Nationalists and Republicans can excuse their hate for all things Protestant, Unionist and Loyalist, and claim they have a right to become intollerant bigots.
Family and friends, music and colour, tradition and faith, pride and appreciation,
come to my twelth and you will see, we have no bonfires on the 11th, no drunken orangemen on parade, no politics on the platform, only one “blood and thunder” flute band, families together of all ages from 2 days old to over 100 yrs old, meeting old friends you only see once a year, tourists and recents immigrants enjoying the music and trying to guess at what mite be offensive, Catholic residents and business owners in the village saying they enjoy it and wished everywhere was like this,(the village could be up to 80% Catholic).
Please dont tar us all with one brush, I wish Mark and some of the rest could leave the Urban parades behind, some of which I would probably hate as much as he does, I dont hate anyone, I cant see any scense of hate in our parade, just give us a break.
“A day when Nationalists and Republicans can excuse their hate for all things Protestant, Unionist and Loyalist, and claim they have a right to become intollerant bigots.”
Ah the “Ulster is My Homeland” is awake and up.
Now what you have just said doesn’t sound very nice now does it. This a religious festival for all those Northern Irish Christians of the Reformed Churches of Roman Catholicism. And what you have just said makes you sound like an “intollerant bigot”.
BTW, are you preparing for the 12th? Does it by any chance make you feel a bit uneasy celebrating the win of the usurper and foreign King William the Dutchman over the very “British” King James.
Does it trouble you in any way that the Irish sided with the British King and that your ancestors could be classed as traitors to the British King and thrown.
Hey, aslo, but did you see that programme that we were just talking about of “HOW THE CELTS SAVED BRITAIN”?
Greg, grow up!
Don’t start him Gragoir, he’ll go off on one his “no such thing as irish/celt/gael” rants.
Protestant Land for a Protestant People…
ha ha …But I think I’ve given him some food for thought. He’ll mull over that for a bit and will no doubt be back with more concocted half baked jibberish!
CELTIC IRELAND AND OTHER FABLES: POLITICS AND PREHISTORY by Richard Warner (archaeologist with the Ulster Museum)
It is virtually a received truth that the Irish are a Celtic people – as are, so we are told, the Welsh, the Cornish, the Bretons and the Scots. Indeed a few years ago the President of the European Commission, on opening an exhibition on the Celts in Venice, announced that being Celtic was the common bond that drew together all the nations of the European Economic Community. What utter hogwash! It is only a short step from such politically contrived pseudo-historical nonsense to Himmler’s warning to German archaeologists and historians that ‘the only thing that matters to us, and the thing that [archaeologists and historians] are paid for by the state, is to have ideas of history that strengthen our people in their necessary national pride’.
We have our primary, indeed only, information on the Celts as a named people or group (Celtae, Keltoi) from Classical authors such as Herodotus, Posidonius and Caesar. From these we learn that they were a warrior people – not necessarily a homogeneous race or an ethnic group, perhaps an elite or a caste – who lived in central Europe north of the Alps, but whose influence was felt widely over Continental Europe. They were, so the Classical authors tell us, warlike, tall, blue-eyed, muscular – one is reminded rather more of the Nazi stereotype of the pure Aryan than of the typical western Irishman! ……..
……….The objective archaeologist, which description includes now all who have authority in this period of prehistory, today deny the Irish Iron Age a ‘Celtic’ tag. It is now very much a consensus view that the role of the Celts in Ireland was about on a par with the Anglo-Norman knights and the Viking marines – they were warrior adventurers whose influence and effect far outweighed their numbers, but who are most unlikely to have had a significant or measurable effect on the Irish gene pool. What is more, apart from some minor artistic elements (and the language), the already minimal Celtic cultural failed to cross the line between the Iron Age and the Early Christian period.
To illustrate this claim I offer Figure 2 – a high-status man of the latter period reconstructed from literary and archaeological evidence, a warrior living in a society that many writers insist on describing as ‘Celtic’. He wears a cloak of Roman form, probably died purple in the Roman fashion. His sword is derived from a short legionary sword – even its name in Irish is derived from the Latin. His small round shield is derived either from the late Roman army shield or (less likely) from a much earlier Irish Late Bronze Age shield. We lack Irish Iron Age shields but we can say that the great oval shields of the Continental Celtic warriors were nothing like this. His brooch is derived from a Romano-British army brooch. His tunic is named after the Latin for its material. In short, he has absolutely nothing culturally Celtic about him – he ought to be labelled Roman!………………..
Watching the Western European equivelent of the “Good Ol’ Boys” vainly trying to convince the masses – who don’t buy into their poisonous brand of uber-Protestantation – that in fact, “WE’RE BRRRAAAAAAATTTISH!!!!!”
While the inhabitants of the ‘Mainland’ look on bemusingly at the bunch of deranged “Paddies”….
Ha ha..I knew UMH that you’d frantically respond with something, buut something unsubstantial coz ye see I have already advocated the notion here many a time before about the title “Celtic” and it’s usage of only a tag or label of covieniance to describe a collection of peoples of Western Europe.
I prescribe as i did before that you read “Blood of the Isles” by Bryan Sykes and The Atlantean Irish by Bob Quinn.
Might help cure your Hibernaphobia.
Ireland has more exotic origins and influences than what you percieve in your prejudice.
Ha ha..I knew UMH that you’d frantically respond with something, but it’s something unsubstantial, coz ye see I have already advocated the notion here many a time before that the title “Celtic” and it’s usage is only a tag or label of covieniance to describe a collection of peoples of Western Europe.
I prescribe for you as I did before that you read “Blood of the Isles” by Bryan Sykes and The Atlantean Irish by Bob Quinn.
Might help cure your Hibernaphobia.
Ireland has more exotic origins and influences than what you percieve in your prejudice.
What does the 12th mean to you?
A ritual marking of territory dressed-up as cultural celebration.
Alternatively,
A cultural event that makes The Wicker Man look pretty normal by comparison!
Loved the bit there about the reconstructed model UMH, wearing bits and bobs off other cultures and using weapons from other peoples. I guess that must really confuse these guys
http://www.archives.gov/research/native-americans/pictures/images/indians-101a.jpg
http://www.archives.gov/research/native-americans/pictures/images/indians-119a.jpg
The only part of the world where protestants march around making noises that they are protestants. The other 99.9999999999% of protestants don’t do that, just the ones in the north east corner of ireland. Backward, parochial, insular, dour humourless weirdoes! I see lots of commonality with the muslim fundamentalists, paranoia, blind faith in their so called scriptures, irrational hatred of “the other” just have a look at UMH’s postings (anti-irish anti-catholic and proud of it). The muslims are stuck in the 7th century whilst the prods are stuck in the 17th. The muslims have the jews as their devils, the orangemen have the catholics as their own spawns of satan.
boring
A sad portrayal of what’s wrong with unionism – a blind refusal to accomodate, change and modernise.
A complete waste of time and finite government resources! I find it amazing that people have travelled from Africa for this years event, are they insane? It is outdated and irrelevant in this and age, such tribalism is more suited to Africa than Western Europe.
Drinking, burning and shouting by slightly insecure, slightly confused people.
Feck you!
No, FECK YOU!
Go feck youself.
No, you go feck yourself!
I’m goin’ to fecking feck you!
No,…continues ad infinitum
Meanwhile, most of the other feckers have fecked off…
No need for me to dump illegally for at least a month
Feeling oppressed because I can’t watch Celebrity Cash in the Attic.
Well, if this little ‘poll’ of Slugger posters is in any way a guide to broader sentiment, I’d say a united Ireland is defo on the cards by 2016 – or maybe just replace the 0 with a another number. The non-Irish nation would see that its culture would not survive without the protection that is offered to it by member its nation controlling the sovereignty of the State. Were they ever to foolishly place themselves in a position where control of the State fell under Irish sovereignty and wherein they comprised circa 15% of the population as opposed to circa 50%, then their tradition of marching would be circumscribed and their culture would be stealthily distorted beyond recognition or meaning. This is why there will always be – and must always be – two states for two nations. By the way, condemning a tradition for being outdated shows that some folks need to consult a dictionary.
I see in the Irish news that one bonfire, criticised last year for having K.A.T on it has went with the more thoughtful ‘Keep Antrim Tidy’ ….strange that. And as one poster on another thread alluded to, some people must think its halloween, what with the ‘Trick or Treat’ slogan they have on theirs.
[i]Were they ever to foolishly place themselves in a position where control of the State fell under Irish sovereignty and wherein they comprised circa 15% of the population as opposed to circa 50%, then their tradition of marching would be circumscribed and their culture would be stealthily distorted beyond recognition or meaning.[/i]
Indeed. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/foyle_and_west/8145650.stm – it’s like a twenty-first century Kristallnacht down south at the minute. Absolutely ridiculous comment to make. Even if hypothetically speaking marching was circumscribed, judging by the comments of many, even perhaps a slight majority of, unionists on this thread I don’t think too many tears would be shed.
You can withhold your apocalyptic hyperbole for now though. As much as it pains me to acknowledge, there’s little appetite for a united Ireland among nationalists north and south at the moment due to the economic crisis.
A time when EVERYONE I know gets the hell out of the ~North.
waking up at four in the afternoon, a freshly brewed cup of strong black coffee (£2) , a triple finlandia vodka from the freezer (£3), eggs benedict and fermanagh black bacon (£5) and a stroll thru the pearls of wisdom on slugger…priceless
As they marched past my heart would beat in time
To the primitive rhythm of their shuffling progress
I’d study the history of my religion on the orange and purple banners
Flaunted at the breeze and all the enemies of Freedom
How I envied my contemporaries entrusted with a banner string
My collaretted sabre wielding elders,
And the fluters elbows raised,shoulders hunched and hearta a thrill
Their ritual rendering echoed in my ears
Long after they had passed
And echoes still.
Every 12th priests are there. Undercover, under the covers even, wishing they had been vicars given that the Protestants have a majority – more boys to go round
Isn’t it funny that the Pope also celebrated the victory at the Boyne with a special mass as a fervent supporter of the Williamite army.
I wonder if the current Pope still celebrates the victory with such enthusiam.
“You can withhold your apocalyptic hyperbole for now though. As much as it pains me to acknowledge, there’s little appetite for a united Ireland among nationalists north and south at the moment due to the economic crisis.”
Are you saying that nationalists in Northern Ireland would put self-serving interests such as the whether or not they’d be economically better off in a united Ireland before their inalienable right to national -self-determination? That’s blasphemy, surely?
A yearly reminder of why I left NI to seek a better life for my family, in a normal society.
I’d love to return but I don’t want my kids exposed to that ‘culture’.
For those about to march- we salute
For those about to march- we salute you
Its all summed up in the resolution to be read at all twelfth demonstrations:
“These present give thanks to almighty God,reaffirm their devotion and loyalty to the throne,the Orange order stands firm for the union”
Read it and weep.
Parade to field prayer meeting plus address as above absolutely no trouble except attacked by catholics
The culmination of 400 years of protestantism, a march and a couple of bonfires, still aimed at upsetting Catholics rather that pleasing God.
I feel sorry for them.
I PARADE ON THE 12TH – I DO NOT HATE CATHOLICS – I AM NOT TRIUMPHALIST – I OFFEND NO ONE – I SIMPLY ENJOY IT – GIVE US A BREAK FROM THE MOANING -
UTV news says what the 12th means
Belfast City hall: A 27 year-old was rushed to hospital in a critical condition after the attack just after 9 last night.
A second man’s been injured in a separate knife attack in north Belfast
Another man remains in a stable condition in hospital after a gang assault in Larne
Police are also continuing to investigate an assault on a teenager by a man with a metal bar in Lurgan.
http://u.tv/News/Attempted-murder-charge-after-City-Hall-attack/3b4abd0b-da85-40a8-8338-ea1499b87be1
You could close your eyes at a ‘Loyal Order’ parade, point your finger in any direction and more than likely it’s straight at a Loyalist paramilitary. This is NOTHING to do with religion, it’s a quasi paramilitary militia reasserting it’s core fundamental hatred and self proclaimed dominance over others. The Orange Order/Apprentice Boys/Black Precepatory have brought so much bitterness and division that they should have been outlawed a long time ago. The man up above has given his opinion on it as it is now pissing on the flames of hatred, that’s what the Twelfth is, demonic and evil. The smell of death and badness surrounds it.
from my point view you talking complete utter rubbish lurig,
I know of no one at our twelth connected with a paramilitary, I see no signs of hatred whatsoever, and I cant see how it can be seen a dominance, there is definately nothing in my parade thats designed to offend.
The vast majority of music played are hymn tunes, religious themes are shown on virtually every banner, and the service in the field is still central to the day, certainly I have spent more time at worship in the loyal orders than i have discussing politics.
When i come home from the 12th I give thanks to “The Man Above” for a great day of friendship and fellowship and feeling truely blessed.
You could close your eyes at a GAA match, point your finger in any direction and more than likely it’s straight at a Nationalist terrorist or a paedophile. This is NOTHING to do with sport, it’s a quasi paramilitary militia reasserting it’s core fundamental hatred and self proclaimed dominance over others. GAA have brought so much bitterness and division that they should have been outlawed a long time ago. The man up above has given his opinion on it as it is now pissing on the flames of hatred, that’s what the GAA, demonic and evil. The smell of death and badness surrounds it.
PS When you look at the £400 allowance MP’s get each month you *really* have to ask yourself, how in the name of f**k did the Rt Hon Jimmy Sands still starve to death ????, anyway
The vile outpourings by our nationalist “brothers” on this site is eyeopening, they hate orange parades but worship scum like sands, mcelwee and co. Well years of murdering and maiming us we are still here, and if a united ireland ever comes we will still be here….so hey ..get used to it. (I quite like the idea of having a small union jack in the tricolour to represent the british population in ireland….a bit like New Zealand for example)
125th Munster Hurling Final.
An Déise abu.
John Rollo…
Ridiculously ignorant comparison of a sporting organisation that just happens to be played by a lot of Catholics( be honest…the only reason you hate it), to an organisation that only exists for one reason…’we hate catholics and are better than them’.
It can be summed up in that sentence alone. However, it’s here to stay so we should look to those wo do actually see it as a charming, rural heritage throwback with families, ice cream and a fun, colourful day out with music etc.
If they took the reigns it could actually become a tourist attraction in a few generations.
However, the current dominant factor is the naked hatred.
Many unionists on here say they are offended by the nationalist ‘intolerance’ of the twelfth, but they fail to see that wat they are actually saying is ‘We demand that you support our right to hate you’.
Believe me, nationalists are trying to, for the sake of a quiet life, so cut them some slack for not having a riot and stand off at every single ‘we hate catholics and beat them at a battle 300 years ago’ march.
The 12th in a sentence….
An opportunity to express a peaceful proud Irish Protestant culture spectaculary missed
The 12th is a special day for me…
I’ll be making my way to Croker along my traditional route with my blue sash on to see the mighty Dubs whip the mighty Lilies before 82,300 gallant Irishmen. And not a paedo in sight despite that twits comments.
Good luck to Na Deise too. I’m a big fan of John Mullane’s. It’s men like him that’ve made the GAA the wonderful organisation that it is. And FTB as Behan might say.
Incidently good luck to the Orangemen too on their big day. It is important to celebrate your identity and feel god about yourselves. But please try to ditch the bigotry. We’re all fellow human beings at the end of the day despite our different identities.
Na Dubs abu!!
Obvious typo there… god should read good!! Not that many Orangemen would have any objection to feeling god about themselves!
The 12th is a day for the slave-minded bigots who want to die an Englishman to display their hatred in public.
Anne Warren
UTV news says what the 12th means
Belfast City hall: A 27 year-old was rushed to hospital in a critical condition after the attack just after 9 last night.
Did UTV news say what the 12th means?
Did they really say this, really?