Armed Forces Day is rightly subdued
I may be counting my chickens, but I suppose at this time of year we ought to be grateful that the massed ranks of the righteous on both sides aren’t making too much of a demonstration out of Armed Forces Day. The Newsletter seems to be making its point on line. Whoops, I’ve just caught up with the Portadown demonstration of just wrath. We’re a long way off from the ideal, that national flags should be treated as just that, rather than party banners, for as long as national gestures of one sort or another spill over into sectarian flashpoints like Drumcree. But you don’t have to be an Irish republican to dismiss the whole event, like military commentator Max Hastings, in the Mail.
It seems to soldiers a mockery that when they are struggling to fight an unpopular and chronically under-resourced war, the British Government’s Big Gesture is to give them a day out with the kiddies in full-dress uniform on the streets of Chatham.You can bet your socks that some idiot minister will say in a speech today that ‘Britain’s Armed Forces are the finest in the world’.
Ulster Unionist Councillor George Savage MLA said the event was “totally justified.”
“This is an opportunity for the nation to get behind those men and women who make up the armed forces community. That includes not only serving troops but service families, veterans and recruits.,” said Mr Savage.
“The allocation of a dedicated day, when people can come together to show their appreciation and support for the Armed Forces, is an appropriate gesture from an indebted public.”
George knows very well that the Nationalists of Portadown and elsewhere are uncomfortable with soldiers marching through their streets. George knows full well why this is.
So why the childish disingenuousness?
So Belfast will be having another celebration of the British military, while around the same time Dublin will be having it’s annual Gay Pride celebrations.
Just shows the difference today in the social make-up of the 2 cities since partition.
Scoffers of course will be give their 2 cents worth, yet not fully understanding the subtext.
Greagoir,
I feel you’re being a little unfair here. My abiding childhood memory of Dublin Easter celebrations was being taken to see the “parade”.
And what did we kids see? Soldiers, soldiers, and more soldiers, and vehicles painted in army drab as they passed the GPO with an unsmiling Dev and assorted politicians and clergymen on a platform. It nearly always rained too. Gay pride it was not.
No wonder I turned out the way I did :^)
“the Nationalists of Portadown and elsewhere are uncomfortable”
Big Maggie, I take your point and add that some of those soldiers will be Irish nationalists.
Ah yes, Big Maggie, but how many years ago is that? 30 or 40 odd years is it?
Because they ceased all such things when The Troubles exacerbated in NI.
“That was then but this is now” as the old 80’s ABC song goes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPm_v4vTPgw
….and believe it or not Big Mag, but your very comments regarding Easter Parades in Dublin 30/40 odd years ago as an example, indicate this “time warp” that exists in NI.
Diluted Orange summed up NI attitudes superbly recently on another thread.
The Belfast Gay Pride parade is in August, isn’t it?
So an odd thing to pick upon in terms of making petty points about the differences between the two capital cities on the island.
Gragoir,
Yes, it was a long time ago. Good thing too! But you spoke of events since partition. I was simply showing that it took a while for the Irish to tidy up their act. I wish they’d change Paddy’s Day to July though. It usually rains in March or in any case it’s shite weather. What would the problem be? It isn’t as though anyone knows on which day Patrick was born.
Nevin,
“I take your point and add that some of those soldiers will be Irish nationalists.”
Makes no difference. It’s not nice to rub a tribe’s nose in it. Soldiers on the street equates with bad memories and should be avoided. That avoidance can be seen as a beginning, at last, to Unionist outreach.
“The Belfast Gay Pride parade is in August, isn’t it?”
Excellent stuff then, with the usual bunch of bible bashers ‘out’ in force praying for the ‘lost souls’ as they view the parade.
“It isn’t as though anyone knows on which day Patrick was born.”
Big Maggs, I believe it may have been on a Wednesday, the 12th of July, 390 AD. Greenflag will correct me however.
Gragoir (didn’t you used to spell your name with an “e”?)
“I believe it may have been on a Wednesday, the 12th of July, 390 AD”
LOL!
They stopped the eirigi protest before it got into town.
http://u.tv/News/Police-stop-republican-protest/c307edb7-13c9-4f21-8c3d-ffc478a11d62
This is not about glorying the Iraq War nor is it anything whatsoever to do with the British military in Ireland.
It is simply the State making a belated gesture of gratitude to men and women serving in the UK Armed forces (Catholic, Protestant and whatever, unionist and probably nationalist)from whatever part of the UK they come from.
Whether the Iraq war was legit or not is irrelevant – the bottom line is our armed forces are risking their lives everyday in two theatres of operation that they were sent to by our democratically elected Government.
Why should it be “subdued” let alone protested against ? We should be proud of those serving and they should know that they have the admiration and support of the country.
Those who support it can do so and those who (for whatever begrudging reason cannot) can stay away.
I cant see the problem ?
John,
“I cant see the problem ?”
Are you sure? Hand on heart now? You’re not joining the ranks of the disingenuous I mentioned earlier?
Big Maggie
Yes Hand on Heart – apart from the fact we have all supposed to have moved on this is a different conflict.
Is Irish nationalism saying regardless of who Britian’s enemy is they will always support the other side – including the psycpopathical Taliban ?
If you think the Taliban is a worthwhile enemy then why would anyone have a problem hand clapping the squaddies who are trying to keep a lid on them ?
I think the individuals who are laying their lives on the line deserve admiration within their own country in who’s name they are doing it.
John,
“including the psycpopathical Taliban ?”
Congrats: you almost got “pope” in there :^)
“I think the individuals who are laying their lives on the line deserve admiration within their own country in who’s name they are doing it.”
Of course they do! If any son of mine were out there doing what those brave lads are doing, I’d not have a moment’s peace. They truly are fighting the good fight. If I believed in God I’d pray for them!
Yet the fact remains, despite your reluctance to accept it, that soldiers on the streets of Northern Ireland present an entirely different perspective to those unfortunate enough to have lost a family member to a squaddie’s ill-advised action, or to those who see their presence as part of the machinery of oppression.
This is reality, lad, like it or lump it. If we’re going to make any progress here in the Six Counties/NI/the North of Ireland then we must take the other’s sensibilities into account. It simply won’t do to say: “These are our finest, so what’s the problem?”
I hope I’ve been clear without being gratuitously insensitive.
Mr Max Hastings
The 4th Afghan War is unwinable.
The Soviet Union didn’t lose because of lack of equipment.The Americans need to do a deal with the Pashtuns to bring about peace.
John,
Why is it that the attacks by the Taliban against foreign forces of military occupation of their country somehow render them psychopathic but the mass killing of innocent villagers by those occupation forces allows them to somehow remain worthy of the support and respect of ordinary decent human beings?
It strikes me that on any objective rationale it should be the Taliban commanding our respect. It is their country after all and it is the US and the Brits who are attempting to impose an alien way of life upon its people in order better to plunder and deprive the Afghan people of their land’s natural resources.
Strangely enough when they were fighting Soviet forces in their country our government was most keen to praise their courage and sacrifice and thoughthat supplying them with the very weaponry which is now being deployed against the new invaders was a very good idea indeed.
Two things I wonder:
What went wrong that such dear friends fell out so?
and
Can East Belfast John really be so naive as he appears?
Big Maggie
“Congrats: you almost got “pope” in there :^)”
What a “gratuitously insensitive” and indeed very stupid and comment to meet.
The only thing I have to like or lump is the fact that there are mopish people in our community who think every action of the British Army revolves around them. Such people however will have to like or lump the fact that celebrations like this will continue because they are the right thing to do. Some of us have moved on but others havent – they will simply be left behind and quite right to.
Rory
I assume you have heard of 9-11 and the fact that Al Quaida had a base in Afghanistan and were supported by the Taleban – are you saying that the invasion of that country was not justified after the 9-11 event ?
Have you read anything about the kind of regime the Taleban enforced ? Have you even read the “Kite Runner” ?
Or are you saying that after 9-11 the US and British should have done nothing in Aghanistan and allowed Bin Laden a free reign to plot more attacks. we also should have allowed the Taleban to oppress everyone in that country and carry out countless atrocities against everyone who opposes them ?
If not then talk some sense
John,
Apologies for my insensitive comment. It’s the inner wag in me.
“Such people however will have to like or lump the fact that celebrations like this will continue because they are the right thing to do.”
So you’re happy that a large section of the populace will have to lump it? I genuinely thought I was getting through to you; in fact I know I was.
Ships? I see no ships.
A fine example of an oxymoron, if I’m not mistaken. ‘Some of the British Army are Irish Nationalists’ They may be Catholics,Southern Catholics, Northern Catholics, Protestants, or people born in Ireland -but Irish Nationalists -never!!
Pancho’s Horse,
I don’t know; it kind of makes sense to me. I think when a lad joins the army such petty concerns as allegiance to the oul’ sod lose their legitimacy.
I mean, take the Gurkhas. I’m sure many of them were/are Nepalese Nationalists. With a royal family like that, who could blame them?
Maggie Mór, when a ‘nationalist’ joins the army of another country he ceases to be a nationalist. He may still be an Irish NATIONAL but he has changed his political allegiance.As for the Gurkhas,they are just mercenaries, like the Welsh, Scottish and Irish who take the English Queen’s 5p.
Pancho’s Horse,
I may be “Big” Maggie but I’m big enough to concede that you’re absolutely right there.
Respect.
I have never met a woman like you before. More respect!
Pancho,
A naughty idea occurs to me. Your fault!
Should I change my nick to Maggie Mór, or would that piss off the Unionists somewhat more than my comments usually do? :^)
The poet in me likes the alliteration and the metrical satisfaction.
PH, so anyone who joins the Foreign Legion automatically renounces his nationalism?
Big Maggie
The “sensitivities of others” arguments in relation to the NI conflict/Troubles is something we have all had to lump in order to move on.
That argument has weight of course in terms of matters pertaining to the Troubles directly. For instance the celebration of the role of the British Armed Forces in the Troubles should be confined to the likes of East Belfast etc.
However Afghanistan is a just war and a different conflict – are nationalists going to make the same mistake of 1939 to 1945 that depsite the British Army being at war with Nazism it was still something not to admire for past actual and perceived (but certainly two way) crimes ?
The point I am making is that this is 2009 in a different war and if Northern Irish regiments having spent 6 months in Afghanistan want to walk down their home towns and be clapped and cheered for an hour by their family and friends to make them feel that somebody back home actually gives a damn then Irish nationalism should be mature enough to look the other way if it must. It would actually be more revolutionary if they took part – or is it going to be another 80 years before a SF Councillor can allow himself to lay a wreath for the early twenty first century Afghan conflict ?
Anyhow your whole sensitivity argument is exactly the policy of the TUV – they simply cant get their head around the fact that the Bogside Butcher is in our Government – but I am sure yuou would tell them about the need to move on ?
Pancho,
You beat me to it! Thanks for the compliment. I’m no too old too appreciate it :^)
See, you’ve turned an old girl’s head! That should have read: I’m not too old to appreciate it :^)
I bet you’re a charmer with the young wans down at the local!
Pancho,
I’m off to grab a litre of wine before replying to John. Something tells me I’m going to need the sustenance :^)
And please don’t tell me that they don’t get it, because as sure as you sprang from your mother’s loins they do.
Here’s that $10 word again: disingenuousness.
Maggie, I’m now in the role Springsteen’s ‘Glory Days’ and 6 co prod, yes he does.His master is the new country/army that pays his killing wage.
Maggie
We are a couple of saddoes on a Saturday night drinking wine and on Slugger – please dont make it any worse !
John,
LOL! I’m off to watch Franklyn, a sci-fi movie I’ve had on my shelf for ages.
I’ll be back—though perhaps not as Governor of CA.
“… are you saying that after 9-11 the US and British should have done nothing in Aghanistan and allowed Bin Laden a free reign to plot more attacks. we also should have allowed the Taleban to oppress everyone in that country and carry out countless atrocities against everyone who opposes them ?” -John East Belfast
What do you mean, John, that the Afghanistanis should be happier having complete strangers from a completely different religious and cultural background invade their country on a totally dubious premise in order to steal its natural resources and that these invaders should “carry out countless atrocities against everyone who opposes them ” instead (and even those who don’t like hapless innocent villagers in a completely different country altogether)?
I’m sure that both the people of Afghanistan and Pakistan would be infinitely happier and feel much more secure exercising the principle of “better the devil you know”. And then some.
If you believe that the US and Britain invaded Iraq, Afghanistan (and threatened Iran and Pakistan) for either reasons of altruism towards the people of these countries or out of a compelling need for their own defense (or some even stranger formula that somehow conflates both justifications) then you are certainly a lot less savvy than I would have given you credit for and somehow I do not think that you are.
But answer me this, please, John – did you never, ever have maybe the slightest sneaking little suspicion that people might just not really feel all that happy about being invaded by foreign armies who don’t speak their language, have no respect for their customs, religion and traditions and proceed to shoot, bomb and level at will all that their whimsy permits with the civilian population especially those most vulnerable taking the brunt of the savagery? Are you really able to say that you have never considered that this might be so ?
Rory
If you think the US invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 for any reason other than Sept 11 2001 then what can I say – perhaps you think the US engineered Sept 11 so that they could steal Afghanistan’s “natural resources” – poppy fields perhaps ?
The US invasion of 2001 was swift and they removed a sadistic regime which led to people dancing on the streets. If the US made any mistake it used the now discredited “light footprint” strategy and then became distracted by Iraq thus allowing the Taleban to re-group and re-assert itself.
What they have been trying to do ever since is extricate themselves in such away that the Afghans can police and defend themselves and hence not necessitate another US invasion in the years to come.
They are pumping money and manpower and paying with lives.
Meanwhile they are implementing democracy, training the police and trying to ensure womens’ rights are protected – as basic as ensuring girls are sent to school.
Once again if you think that such noble ideals paid for by US and UK blood along with Afghannies is less admirable than the re-instatement of the Taleban then what can I say ?
Jeez deliver me from whinging republicans! To keep them happy everything remotely British is to be kept in a box out of their delicate sight. However their ‘culture’ is to be embraced or it’s cries of discrimination.
Unionists are even expected to ignore republican “army” members playing at being politicians.
Reminds me of the old joke. Why did the republican chicken cross the road, then walk down another road and then cross over two further roads?
To be offended.
Balconite,
A unionist joke about republicans on the theme of walking? For FFS!
Pancho’s Horse: Maggie Mór, when a ‘nationalist’ joins the army of another country he ceases to be a nationalist. He may still be an Irish NATIONAL but he has changed his political allegiance.As for the Gurkhas,they are just mercenaries, like the Welsh, Scottish and Irish who take the English Queen’s 5p.
A collection of errors up there:
A Nationalist can perfectly well be in the army of another country with which his own country is at peace. Only the dissident republicans still think there is a war on.
It isn’t the Queen’s 5p – that notion is archaic. More accurately, it is 5p borrowed on the international money markets by a Scottish Prime Minister using the future earnings of the British taxpayer as collateral.
And don’t Irish Nationalists on Slugger usually describe the Queen as German, not English, anyway?
And the Gurkhas have a long tradition of service in the British army. Recruitment is keenly contested, and success is rewarded with social status in the Nepalese community. That isn’t the mercenary mentality.
I fully understand Unionists 100% support of their British Army, after all it is a part of their British culture, however the lack of any criticism by Unionist folk of the British Army no matter what conflict they are engaged in, is rather peculiar.
It’s a case of the British Army can never do any wrong in Unionists eyes, no matter what!
Gréagóir O Frainclín
As threatened, I’m back! Brilliant movie, Franklyn. They had to get an American to play the lead, I suppose to make it acceptable to the Yanks. Oh well. One to be watched again, if only for the beautiful photography and sets. Eva Green is stunning: half French, she blows away any British actress of her generation. Best watched with a minimum of wine intake I have to say, as the plot is devilishly intricate :^)
Anyhow…
Reader,
“And the Gurkhas have a long tradition of service in the British army. Recruitment is keenly contested, and success is rewarded with social status in the Nepalese community. That isn’t the mercenary mentality.”
Right, let’s put this particular myth out of its misery (sorry, Ms Lumley). The Gurkhas are and always have been a bloodthirsty band of mercenaries. They most certainly do not owe any allegiance to Britain or its royal family. They’ll fight for anybody who’ll pay. At the present time they’re busy slaughtering for whatever government will pay them.
And let’s not forget how they were placed in front of the British artillery at the Siege of (Don’t) Lucknow in 1857, in case they went over to the other side with the lure of more of the readies.
Allow me to quote from Britain’s Himalayan mercenaries:
The Gurkhas fight for foreign armies and empires. Between 1815 and 1947, the UK was the main outlet for Gurkha soldiering. More recently, the Gurkhas have served in U.N. peacekeeping missions in East Timor, Rwanda and Lebanon. They also serve as bodyguards for the Sultan of Brunei, one of the richest men in the world.
Whoops!
After India was partitioned in 1947, the Gurkhas slowly began to branch out. During the Cold War, they continued to serve the Crown, fighting communist insurgency on the Malay Peninsula and in the Falklands. A contingent of Gurkhas was based in Hong Kong until the 1997 handover to communist China.
Even today, the nation of India maintains no less [sic] than 46 Gurkha battalions (about 40,000 men), many of them eager to square off against Muslim Pakistan. India recruits over 2,000 Gurkhas per year, about 10 times more than the British army. In India, the Gurkhas become jawans, regular Indian troops.
“Nepal is a Hindu nation, and thus we have certain religious and cultural ties with India. The Nepal government has stated that Gurkhas can never be deployed for combat against other Hindus,” Shrestha told WorldNetDaily.
While largely Hindu, the Gurkha religion also contains elements of Buddhism (which comes from neighboring Tibet) and animism.
The Gurkhas are a tribal people, which suits the ethos of the British army.
David Lee, commander of British Army Training Support Unit in Belize told WorldNetDaily, “The British are tribal in nature. The soldiers in our units will most likely spend their entire military career with the same peers.”
So in the way of the world it’s the bottom line that induces those young men from poor mountainous regions to choose to sign up in foreign armies, to kill strangers with whom they have no quarrel.
Sad.
John East Belfast
Bin Laden was a CIA protege.
Do you think the British should bomb Saudi Arabia,after all the 9/11 attackers were mostly Saudi, and spread democracy there?
John East Belfast,
It appears John that’d you’d believe everything that the British and American governments say regarding foreign policy, even despite all the hypocrisy of the Middle East over the years ie Afghanistan, the Taliban, Bin Laden, Iraq, Iran, Saddam Hussein, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the Ayatollah, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Palestine, etc… etc…
Coz the likes of SKY news says something it doesn’t mean it’s true either!
Masking conflicts with the veils of patriotism, national honour and duty etc…is how governments win over public opinion for support of such conflicts no matter how just or unjust, legal or illegal, and it looks like you’ve been suckered all the way and all the time.
Big Maggie: Whoops!
Are you suggesting that there are British Army Gurkhas double jobbing with the Sultan of Brunei? If not, then what is your point?
Big Maggie: At the present time they’re busy slaughtering for whatever government will pay them.
That’s a bit sweeping. How much slaughtering are they doing right now, and who for? And are you counting the UN missions in that?
GOF
I really dont know how you conclude that I agree with ALL US & UK Foreign policy from anything I have posted and I can tell you I dont as I have my own views.
However on the particular policy I did comment on I have no doubt that attacking Afghanistan post 9-11, routing the Taleban and scattering Al Qaida was the right thing to do – do you believe otherwise ?
However equally I could conclude from many of the posters here that there are some who will disagree with all US & UK Foreign Policy no matter what it is.
More to the point – and the subject of this thread – there are some who will disapprove of everything the British Army does no matter if it is fighting Nazis, the Taleban or Al Qaida. ie there is an in built Irish Republican prejudice against the British Army.
In my support for Armed Forecs Day in Northern Ireland i was basing it primariliy on the fact that it was about the troops and not about policy. The troops do as ordered accoring to the wishes of our democratically elected Government. If we dont like that policy then the people can change the Govt via elections and campaigning. However it is wrong to blame the troops. Ultimately the people get the Govt they deserve so dont blame others for acting out their policies.
The US discovered that grave mistake in Vietnam and they dont intend to make it again this time round. The UK is, in a very British and very tame way, trying to do something similar.
Ultimately it is about showing the troops that we give a damn.
It is not about the rights and wrongs of British Foreign Policy – past and present – nor is it about US Foreign Policy. It most certainly isnt about the British Army in Ireland.
Manfarang
“Do you think the British should bomb Saudi Arabia,after all the 9/11 attackers were mostly Saudi, and spread democracy there? ”
No and with hindsight I would have opposed the Iraq War as well
Once the Union Jack is behind anything, the unionists will blindly support it, be it mass murder or any other nefarious activity, just wrap it up in the union jack and they’ll follow. They’re more loyal than most of the people in Britain. Remember the Scotland v Norn Iron football game last year when the Scots booed God Shave the Queen, the NI unionist supporters were totally outraged. They’ve been conditioned all their lives to blindly support Britain through anything.
JEB,
” ie there is an in built Irish Republican prejudice against the British Army”
Yes.I think scientists and other “thinkers” are calling it “memory”.
Guest
“ie there is an in built Irish Republican prejudice against the British Army”
Yes.I think scientists and other “thinkers” are calling it “memory”.”
So scientists are studying the Irish pscyhe now !
Perhaps psychiatrists or psychologists – anyhow it is not memory just ugly bitterness.
And if the pro British Irish started to search their not to distant memories they could drag up lots of reasons to have such as a view of Irish Republicanism.
Anyhow you just took the debate full circle – it is about those who want to live in the past and those who want to move on and judge every situation with the British Army in Ireland on its own merits.
Those British squaddies in Afghanistan deserve our support and cheer – I have no time for the begrudgers.
JEB,
“And if the pro British Irish started to search their not to distant memories they could drag up lots of reasons to have such as a view of Irish Republicanism.”
So you understand.
The whole 15%!!
Lets judge every British army action in
Ireland on it’s own merits.Nothing begrudging in that their biggest failure was to not stand up to unionism when the vast majority of Irish people wanted Independence.
“Perhaps psychiatrists or psychologists – anyhow it is not memory just ugly bitterness.”
Damn right it is, and they cannot be the same thing because?
what was that Freude quote about the Irish?.
Personally, I’m thinking of a completely different famous quote involving Nuremberg and the victor writes history.
JEB,
Sorry to respond with 2 posts, but hats memory for you.
“And if the pro British Irish started to search their not to distant memories they could drag up lots of reasons to have such as a view of Irish Republicanism.”
Its very interesting that you infer that because you ( or the they you speak of) don’t feel the way they could because both sides could feel that way.It is “otherness” instead of “WEness” in all its nakedlory.It is “notaboutery”.And the very reason NI will never be a country.
Ironic that Britain defends the right of Iranians to protest yet blocks men and women in territory it calls its own from peaceful assembly and protest [http://www.eirigi.org/latest/latest280609.html].
Nice stormtrooper outfits, by the way. Very sharp looking — très fascist-chic.