Get the boot into racism (2)
I was initially unconvinced the mass exodus of Romanian families from the Village area was due to real concerns from most and suggested it may have been due to taking the opportunity of media attention to gain advantage on the social housing list. That is a position I’ve mainly stepped back from as it became clear any rational person from that group would rightly be concerned about their safety in the area – but I do still have a niggling doubt.
I also raised concerns the protest from ‘locals’ was an ill-advised stunt designed to capitalise on the issue by minority sects like the Socialist Party and Worker’s Solidarity Movement , something I still believe fully. A feeling compounded by the vastly inflated numbers of those attending the protest emanating from them and the fact they were singularly unable to provide any support or reassurance to convince affected families they could/would provide protection after upping the ante on the streets.
These positions have earned me an strong email rebuke by a leading member of the Socialist Party as ‘disgraceful’ and a ‘lack of leadership’ on my part – just who the feck I’m meant to be leading I’ve no idea.
However, that said, news is breaking of main protest organiser and Socialist Party rep Paddy Meehan receiving a threat to his life via the PSNI over his part in the demonstration. I’d suggest (not in the leadership role expected of me by the SP) it is past time people outside these small groups, and the few residents willing to put their feet on the street, organised broader and direct support to people enduring racism in the Village and/or fighting against it.
If the PSNI and tiny groups can’t make an impact it is surely time larger, organised groups with a commitment to fighting racism and fascism put their money where their mouths are, boots on the street (and in faces?) and started defending those unable to do it themselves?
btw: the main organised bodies I’m thinking could step up to the plate are the Loyal Orders.
Mark, there are 5000 soldiers here, why not avail of their services? Or, better, bring back the Irish Guards from Aldershot. They are loyal orders after all.
And very, very good at defending people from sectarian attacks.
Driftwood,
I know that’s a flippant response but any chance of really dealing this has to come from within the local community not without – be that minor political groups, the PSNI or British Army. The Loyal Orders as an organised local group, supposedly committed to freedom for all, could imho be in a prime position to show positive leadership without any connection to the gun. Just a thought.
Mark
If you really think the Orange Order or associated organisations are going to get involved-get real. Even as an atheist, only the evangelical (and possibly) Catholic churches might help the victims. The perpetrators are beyond help. Marx’s Lumpenproletariat. If the PSNI cannot sort it then its McDonald.
Nasty situation, but none of us here can deal with a criminal underclass that exists in most societies. Possibly the perpetrators may end up in Hydebank for a short while(if the police and CPS were competent), but maybe there simply isn’t any solution. Sometimes that’s the way it is.
At kleast eh socialist party were public in supporting these people. Where were other groups at the time when windows were being smashed and people threatened. Where were the PUP?
Yes, let’s give them tea, sympathy marches, accelerated progress on the housing waiting list, benefits etc. etc. even though these people speak little or no English, don’t send their children to school, don’t seem to be employed and have an amazing tendency to end up selling Big Issues and playing accordions outside your local Super Valu.
As despicable and downright sickening as both these attacks and the perpetrators are, this particular community has nothing positive to offer our society. They really could learn a thing or two from our newly arrived eastern European communities and especially so from our well-established and integrated Chinese, Indian and Pakistani friends.
Try your best to integrate, earn a living and pay your way – and if you can’t be arsed with that, and would prefer to beg or set up camp on a busy roundabout and then demand social housing, fuck off home. Simple.
All the racist comments these posts create is disgraceful.
It is totally irrelevant what jobs these people do.
The fact is pogroms are once again occurring in our city. It demands an organised response to help these people. Do not indulge the racists by making excuses for them.
“Try your best to integrate”
A bit rich considering the natives haven’t managed it yet. Perhaps they should have their own peace wall.
[b]I was initially unconvinced the mass exodus of Romanian families from the Village area was due to real concerns from most and suggested it may have been due to taking the opportunity of media attention to gain advantage on the social housing list.[/b]
Extraordinary.
One of the most ingrained racist comments on the situation I have ever read. If it had been made anywhere else but here the writer would be crucified by the media. The comment itself was bad enough but the flippancy and lack of self introspection that underlies it are mind boggling, for, for the writer, racism is as natural as breathing.
Transpose such a statement to Nazi Germany and you get:
[b]I was initially unconvinced the mass exodus of Jewish families from the greater Reich area was due to real concerns from most and suggested it may have been due to taking the opportunity of media attention to gain advantage on the social housing list.[/b]
Mark McGregor has ingrained planter/settler mentality – all them victims must obviously be perpetrating some scam.
Next post:ö
Women in short skirts: they wux asking forrit.
Them settler/planters eh, scumbags to a man racist/sectarian and possibly rapists too…..
Carlsberg don’t do ironic comments…..
Mark McGregor
First of all these attacks took place in the Lisburn Rd/University area, NOT the Village, which makes it all the more worrying.
Secondly the fact that you were initially unconvinced for the reasons of the Roma peoples’ flight from the area clearly indicates a racist mindset on your part. That’s the sort of throw away comment made by white people in England 30 years ago so with the time lag in Northern Ireland I guess that’s about right. And of course, leafy Welly Park is a complete dump so who could blame them for wanting something a bit more upmarket like Sandy Row or Donegall Pass. And did you miss the part about some scumbag waving a gun in their kids faces?
Thirdly, suggesting the loyal orders are the organisation best placed to deal with this situation convinces me your opening post was a wind up.
Whatever your opinions about the SP and WSM, at least, unlike the PSNI, they got up off their arses and attempted to do something helpful.
Democratic
It’s a common theme from all the usual Rent-a- “All Hun are Scum”- Mob through all of the “racist” or “sectarian” threads on this site. Fighting bigotry with more bigotry, it’s an interesting philosophical concept though can’t see it having that much of an effect on the root problems.
Mark’s post, coming from someone who I’d logged as a bit more intelligent, is more disturbing to be honest.
“I was initially unconvinced the mass exodus of Romanian families from the Village area was due to real concerns from most and suggested it may have been due to taking the opportunity of media attention to gain advantage on the social housing list.”
Why exactly do/did you think that?
“If the PSNI and tiny groups can’t make an impact it is surely time larger, organised groups with a commitment to fighting racism and fascism put their money where their mouths are, boots on the street (and in faces?) and started defending those unable to do it themselves?”
The AFA and others have tried the “direct action” approach for years- do you really think it’s been successful in curbing racism? If not, then what’s the point?
Protest organiser in fire threat
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8108664.stm
democratic
carlsberg?
There is a problem in Northern Ireland as in all other parts of the world, the people here are racist – and like many parts of the world we are also sectarian. So accepting these facts we have to learn to deal with this problem and no matter how liberal or PC we are, all of us at some time will have an irrational dislike of another person or group probably based on misjudgements or ill informed information or plain stereotyping.
So how can we deal with this and work at it. Firstly we need to accept that its a problem we all have. Secondly some of us deal with it better than others thirdly just because you express an unPC opinion doesn’t actually make you a racist.
Other parts of the world have dealt with the racism by strict anti racism laws balanced by strict immigration policies. America, Australia and other attractive economies have very rigid entry requirements they also have virulent anti racism laws, but from the myriad of available evidence they haven’t cracked racism.
Northern Ireland is no different except that under our EU membership we have become an open travel area for all Europeans seeking work, residence of the likes of health care.
We have not managed the opening of our borders and during an economic crisis these failures will always surface. During economic weakness the weakest are always the targets.
So analysis over – solutions.
!. We need a proper debate on immigration outside the current crisis policy made on the hoof is frequently bad policy.
2. Immigrants should be subject to the same laws and restrictions as local people – so if street vendors have to be licensed all should be licensed, if begging is illegal this should apply to all, if children have to go to school etc
3. As with other parts of the world residency of immigrants should be based around employment and strict time limits should apply, you can’t stay indefinitely in the US unless you have a green card and can get work
4. Immigrants should be encouraged to integrate. This appears to be working with the Polish and Portuguese communities so as an example this should be encouraged.
5. The law should be enforced against thugs and hood who attack, threaten to attack or instigate attacks against anyone.
Ms Wiz,
“First of all these attacks took place in the Lisburn Rd/University area, NOT the Village, which makes it all the more worrying.”
Le Monde is reporting that residents of the Village were involved:
“Youths from a neighbouring loyalist area (The Village) have stepped up acts of intimidation. On Monday, while residents of the area were demonstrating in support of their Romany neighbours, these youths counter-attacked with Nazi salutes and chants. The Village’s loyalist paramilitary groups, who in the past have been involved in racist actions, condemned the events and claimed to have nothing to do with them.”
The journalist’s name is Virginie Malingre.
Who made the threat I wonder? Especially if it was ‘via’ the PSNI?
More racism passing as concern.
You think the Romanians are exaggerating a threat in order to get better housing on advantageous terms? I doubt it given they’ve had to endure attacks.
However, such a move would at least suggest the Romanians were adopting local customs, you know, like prison officers.
I see that nasty little left wing agitator Richard Littlejohn has added his tuppence worth..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1194046/LITTLEJOHN-Fast-tracking-Tarmacing-community-NHS.html
Racist, criminal? You should know, McGuinness
Northern Ireland’s First Minister Martin McGuinness was interviewed on television condemning in no uncertain terms the shocking violence directed towards Romanians living in Belfast.
This was nothing less than a crime against humanity by ‘racist criminals’, he declared.
‘It is a matter of great concern for us that a small, unrepresentative group would attempt to threaten and intimidate a large number of people.’
As this celebrated pacifist was expressing his outrage, no one appeared to spot the rather large elephant standing alongside him, wearing a balaclava and brandishing an Armalite.
McGuinness is exceptionally well-qualified to talk about small, unrepresentative groups threatening and intimidating people.
For a quarter of a century, he was one of the IRA godfathers when hundreds of people were murdered simply for being either British or Protestant.
So no racism there, then. He appeared to have no problem with innocent men, women and children being slaughtered for nothing more than finding themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time, whether they happened to be young boys in Warrington or shoppers in Harrods.
It has been reported that those responsible for the recent violence were acting in retaliation for alleged Romanian pickpocketing gangs in Belfast city centre.
This is precisely the tactic used by IRA punishment squads against drug dealers and petty criminals in Republican neighbourhoods.
Anyone who crossed the Provo warlords was either run out of town, kneecapped or killed. There was appalling butchery on both sides of the sectarian divide, but McGuinness has an abbatoir-full of blood on his leather apron.
While we should rejoice that he has now renounced – but never apologised for – his terrorist past, listening to this sanctimonious ex-gangster playing the hand-wringing, anti-racist, law-and-order moralist sticks in the craw.
It’s a bit like discovering that the Yorkshire Ripper is running a rape crisis centre.
“democratic
carlsberg?”
You don’t remember the old TV adverts Tell Me Why?
this particular community has nothing positive to offer our society.
Perhaps we need a solution. One that will be final…
I can’t believe that some people will condone violence against women and children just because they don’t like being hassled outside a shop about buying the big issue. Are the articles in it that bad that you want to see women and children scared out of their homes? I’d rather be hassled by a person trying to sell me a copy than be hassled and threatened by an ugly, sectarian, bigoted and racist mob who probably all scrounge off the dole anyway and never even seen a classroom, nevermind spoke english in one. Filthy scumbags. Where’s Travis Bickle and his rain forecast when you need him?
I’m terribly disappointed in you Mark McGregor for whatever that is worth. From previous posts of yours I would have thought that you were far from being racist. You just never know, do you. What are you going to do, or who are you going to turn to when they come for you.
For once I can agree with canuck.
From previous posts of yours I would have thought that you were far from being racist.
He appears to change his position along with his support.
Yesterday Sinn Fein, today dissidents tomorrow the SWP, next week??
If you live in the Village who is most likely to do you the most harm? A couple of Gypsies trying to sell you the Big Issue or a gang of local hoodie-clad thugs whose answer to any problem is to give someone a hiding?
It is difficult to see how the “you don’t have to live beside these people” line holds up. It isn’t the immigrants that make the streets of the Village unsafe to walk at night.
As for the alleged level of inconvenience suffered by the residents of Wellington Park due to their Romanian gypsy neighbours, well it’s difficult to see how any of them would be more hassle than the average bunch of noisy, partying, vomiting students.
[i]I can’t believe that some people will condone violence against women and children just because they don’t like being hassled outside a shop about buying the big issue.[/i]
Posted by Smug O’ Toole on Jun 19, 2009 @ 12:15 PM
Are you partially blind? Or is the thin air up there on your high horse further degenerating your intellect?
I repeat: As despicable and downright sickening as both these attacks and the perpetrators are…
[i]I’d rather be hassled by a person trying to sell me a copy than be hassled and threatened by an ugly, sectarian, bigoted and racist mob who probably all scrounge off the dole anyway and never even seen a classroom, nevermind spoke english in one[/i]
Exactly, there’s too much scum in our society. Take the benefits away from our workshy compatriots and have a sensible immigration policy that allows only those who can demonstrably make a positive contribution to our society and economy to settle here.
P.S. With regard to your snide little attempt at humour, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
What about some of the Socialists taking up the cause of the Protestants in the Fountain area of Londonderry who are subject to ceaseless attacks, which have accelerated in frequency recently?
its too far from Turf Lodge!
So let’s get this straight, Mark:
You initially, without any evidence beyond racism, pushed a hunch that the victims of racism were in fact perpetrating a hoax so as to skip the NHS waiting list. Now, you’ve “stepped back” from this open expression of bigotry, but you can’t resist telling us that you still have a “niggling doubt”.
I see that Mick is now reporting that a Romanian has been shot in Belfast in what appears to be a racist incident. No doubt your first instinct is to assume that the dirty foreigner is faking the incident so that he can get his filthy disease ridden body ahead in the NHS waiting lists.
Given the political view you’ve expressed, I doubt if the Socialist Party or the Workers Solidarity Movement or the other people who have actually gone and tried their best to offer help and solidarity to the families being victimised are particularly interested in your view of their motivations. I on the other hand am fascinated by the sight of someone who I had understood to be a supporter of Eirigi accusing other groups of being “minority sects”! Self-awareness, like anti-racism, evidently isn’t a popular subject in the McGregor household.
Framer,
I can’t believe you began that comment with “What about”.
You’re obviously new to Slugger :^)
@Ms Wiz
Fine to call that racist I suppose, but being racist is not the same thing as being factually wrong. Using inductive logic concerning people (e.g. US Hispanics like soccer, US whites don’t, Gurkhas are brave in a fight) doesn’t suddenly become wrong when it’s a negative in someone’s eyes (Roma are beggers, Ulster Loyalists don’t want to learn Irish). Only fools do not know there are exceptions to the general rule, and rejecting the exceptions can become unfair on an individual level. However saying to someone that they only hold their position because they have racist attitudes is not an argument, it’s mostly an argumentum ad personam fallacy. A negative generalisation can provide useful data, even when concerning a “race”. The important thing is that the thinker is open minded and can change their opinion. Many anti-racists are as closed minded as racists.
Mark,
I spoke to a nutty homeless cyclist with a beard and a luminous jacket outside the Spaniard two nights ago. He was peddling these same racist notions.
By any chance was this you? Though, I didn’t see a laptop in his cart.
Driftwood
I’m interested in why you say that. There is in fact an evangelical gypsy movement quite widespread in Portugal, Spain and France, and I’ve seen research that Gypsy evangelical converts have higher incomes and lower rates of criminality. However I don’t see why you would single out evangelicals in your comments.
Swerve
I don’t have much time for any church or religion, but some protestant churches here seem to have a thing about helping Romanians (whether Roma or not). Whether they are seeking to ‘evangelise’ their brand or not I don’t know. But they seemed very willing to help the victims of the intimidation this week.
I recognise that the Salvation Army, St Vincent de Paul etc do good work, though I query their motives Christopher Hitchens style.(check out his article on St Teresa)
*Mother* Teresa
http://www.slate.com/id/2090083/
And related to Marks cod blog here:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/the-magazine/features/3702693/i-have-come-up-with-a-way-of-disrupting-all-these-mad-employment-tribunals.thtml
Just think, that the terrorised Roma people who have been driven out of their homes will return to Romania with very bad memories of Northern Ireland. Very bad memories that they will tell their children and their grandchildren.
The new Transylvannia of Europe….don’t go there!
“I don’t have much time for any church or religion, but some protestant churches here seem to have a thing about helping Romanians (whether Roma or not). Whether they are seeking to ‘evangelise’ their brand or not I don’t know.”
Is there a bowl of soup on offer?
“Mark, there are 5000 soldiers here, why not avail of their services? Or, better, bring back the Irish Guards from Aldershot. They are loyal orders after all.”
As I have said before, using the British army as ‘social workers’ is not the response needed. Did folk not learn anything from Bloody Sunday at all? An army is trained and equipped to fight wars, not deal with an ‘uneducated and disfunctional broken people’ of a society that has continuously failed itself.
Why can folk not see that in NI? Why is heavy handedness always an answer in NI. Using a hammer to break an egg, etc…But this is part of the same problem too!
What was actually racist about these attacks?
I don’t know if anyone noticed, but such attacks have been common against people of like race in this part of the world since creation!
Greagoir o Frainclin: Very bad memories that they will tell their children and their grandchildren.
But isn’t that exactly what the racists want? Far better to give them a different memory – of the peace and tranquility they will experience in Poleglass or the Ardoyne over the next couple of years.
Greagoir O Frainclin: Did folk not learn anything from Bloody Sunday at all?
Since the army was on the streets of NI for another 30 years without ever repeating Bloody Sunday, even during much more serious rioting, it seems that some very important lessons *were* learned.
Reader,
“some very important lessons *were* learned. ”
Certainly. Bloody Sunday was the consummate recruiting sergeant for the IRA. A practically dormant terrorist organization was swamped with volunteers in the wake of that shocking Derry massacre.
There’s little doubt in my mind that the history of NI would have taken an entirely different course had the slaughter of UK citizens by their own army not taken place. Somewhere in the MOD there’s a handful of people close to retirement (or retired) who bitterly regret the decision to send in the Paratroopers.
“it may have been due to taking the opportunity of media attention to gain advantage on the social housing list”
Yes, it’s enough to make any honest taxpayer go out and shout “Sieg Heil, Sieg Heil”
Regarding the issue of using the army on the streets again to keep “law and order,”…..but the army are currently on the streets of Iran now keeping “law and order,” by shooting dead people.
This year is also the 20th anniversary of Tianamen Square in China where Chinese troops shot dead many students.
Is this what folk want to see in the UK?
“I can’t believe that some people will condone violence against women and children just because they don’t like being hassled outside a shop about buying the big issue.”
I haven’t seen anyone condoning the attacks, I might have missed them, could you point them out to me?
Big Maggie: A practically dormant terrorist organization was swamped with volunteers in the wake of that shocking Derry massacre.
The IRA had killed 10 people in the month before Bloody Sunday. 85 people in the year before Bloody Sunday. ‘practically dormant’ may fit 1969 – it certainly doesn’t fit 1971/1972.
Greagoir O Frainclin: This year is also the 20th anniversary of Tianamen Square in China where Chinese troops shot dead many students. Is this what folk want to see in the UK?
No one was suggesting bringing the People’s Liberation Army on to our streets. (Unless Eamonn McCann has been up to something)
Greagoir O Frainclin: …but the army are currently on the streets of Iran now keeping “law and order,” by shooting dead people.
That was the police, wasn’t it? So, if you don’t want the police to do it, and you don’t want the army to do it – what’s left? DAAD? Oh – wait – they killed people too.
There’s no option. If racist intimidation is to be dealt with, we have to arm Alliance’s militant wing.
Reader, I was responding to Driftwood who mooted the idea of having the British army on the streets of NI again to keep law and order.
See below….
“Mark, there are 5000 soldiers here, why not avail of their services? Or, better, bring back the Irish Guards from Aldershot. They are loyal orders after all.”
Come to think of it, but we know of the likes of dictatorships, junta’s, and despotic states having the army shoot protesting civilians on the streets, ie…. China and Iraq are just two I mentioned, but can anyone name any “democratic” western states where this has happened in the last 30 – 40 years?
BTW, pardon my mispelt name, but the fada’s didn’t register ….
Greagoir O Frainclin
Gréagóir O Frainclín
Gréagóir
As Mark noticed next post, I was being flippant.
The United States has used its National Guard however (similar to the TA)and the French CRS police are virtually army anyway.
The point is, tha Police are damned either way. look at what happened when a guy died at the G20 protests in London. The Met were vilified by the media.
An aside, I see the Romanian consul has said his government doesn’t have the money to fly the victims of intimidation back home. I wonder why that is?
Gréagóir O Frainclín: but can anyone name any “democratic” western states where this has happened in the last 30 – 40 years?
Just to add to Driftwood’s mention of the US National Guard – Kent State University, May 1970, 4 dead, 9 wounded.