Why did Sinn Fein not ‘close the deal’ in the south?
It’s pretty obvious that for now, the deal between Sinn Fein and the Northern Irish nationalist population is effectively closed. In Northern Ireland, nationalism delivered an ‘as you were’ result, not dissimilar to the one it delivered two years ago, which rewarded Sinn Fein with three Ministerial seats, and the SDLP with one. Not so in the Republic, where Eoin O’Broin notes that his party failed to close the deal with a growing number of people who are falling away from the two larger parties or ‘Fianna Gael’ as Fintan O’Toole put it last week. My own guess, in a word, is credibility. As Liam Clarke noted last weekend, the fact that Labour alone of the Dail parties voted against last September’s bank communicated something insincere and even capricious about the party’s policy making process which I suspect will be part of the internal discussion that O’Broin to which refers.
Adds: (courtesy of observer) “Sinn Fein has been imploding for quite a while…“
Brian,
point taken.I am a bit jumpy this evening.
reader,
point taken.
although I do believe that there is a fundamental contradiction in being Irish and being Northern Irish or British, and that time will pitch one against the other.It may be a darwinian simplicity, but a book is not written until it is read, and “Irishness” will seek to define itself with time, and I can only see the 4 million winning through?It’s rude and non-quantum,but it is life
Guest: I must disagree entirely. The idea that there is a fundamental contradiction between being Irish and British is the cause of our problems, not the solution. We live in an age of increasingly subtle identity (African-American, “New Irish” etc.) and I don’t see how forcing people to choose between monolithic labels is in the least constructive.
Reader: “I think Brian was looking for a label that covered 100% of us Nordies but not the southerners. (OK then: “Nordies”) ”
What about “Norners”?
Andrew,
I like “Norners”.
Or “foriegners”?
I agree that we live in an age of,well, post-nationalism,but my problem with that point of view is that it seems that those who were most nationalist in the past seem to be those who are most in agreement with the end of history lark.
I have children who have a different nationality than I have and it is eye-opening.Where I have a problem and where I personally see the line drawn is when one’s claim to irishness reduces(officially) anothers claim to nationally.Unionists who “are” Irish(that hurt) reduce “Irishness” to a subset of 3britishness” while on an international scale Brithishness is a nationality en par with “irishness”.Can you see that there will be eventual philophical conflict,
excuse the orhograph
Reader,
I think Brian was looking for a label that covered 100% of us Nordies but not the southerners
Considering over 300,000 Nordies are now citizens of the Irish Republic and by 2016 that number should be hitting 600,000, I don’t really think you will have much joy trying to find a label that excludes the Republic.
It will fail as much as the efforts to have a label for Nordies that excludes the United Kingdom.
Guest:
‘Unionists who “are” Irish … reduce “Irishness” to a subset of britishness”’
Oh come on. You might as well say that “Americans” who are “African” reduce “Africanness” to a subset of “Americanness”. Did you study Venn diagrams in school?
George:
“300,000 Nordies are now citizens of the Irish Republic”
I’m one of them. I’m still a Norner.
I did Andrew.
Fascinting stuff.
I’ll rest determined in spite of your choice quotes.
amercica is a different ball game.It is a country based on immigration.They are norners in their own land.
Now, put an American in Africa and let him call himself an African-American.sounds stupid,doesn’t it?
Guest: Go back far enough and all countries are based on immigration. Let us for argument’s sake consider a Polish family settling in Galway (an example close to my heart). Would you ask their children to give up being Polish in order to be Irish? Or would you allow them the freedom to choose their own identity, even if it doesn’t fit into your preconceived boxes?
Andrew,
Can I close off my garden and declare it a part of the Irish republic?
No.
“Go back far enough and all countries are based on immigration”
the cry of the end of history-”we are all ethiopian!!!!
Brian
You cannot get away with dismissing almost 90 years of injustice and undemocratic government by claiming the enlightenment.
Historically Ireland had never been partitioned until 1922, yet you wish to use that as the yardstick, which for me makes you a child of imperialism.
Mick Hall
SF drifting from left to right as the political wind takes them and ever fearful the Brits will pull the plug on them in the north and make them an irrelevancy in the south.
What ever do you mean by “pull the plug on them”?
Throughout history extreme nationalism has always been a right wing phenomenon. That changed slightly with the advent of communist states, who were extreme in their nationalism too, but the contradictions of believing that the state must be maximised through individual endeavour and the goal of social justice for the poor and weak tore them apart.
JOC-Throughout history extreme nationalism has always been a right wing phenomenon. That changed slightly with the advent of communist states
Slightly?slightly?
you’re taking the piss?
Guest
I see what you mean. It was just a manner of speaking. But in the whole scheme of things the world was only only changed slightly by communism and its failure to do what it says on the tin, create a just world. It was of course a failure to understand humanity at the heart of communism’s failure. What they were proposing was not what people wanted when they talked of a just society.
Only a major Christian religion like Catholicism could provide what people really want because they have the advantage of an insight into human nature that Communism just doesn’t have. In the case of Catholicism that insight has been largely absorbed by social democracy.
Gerry Adams’ has a tenuous grip on power in Sinn Fein. His leadership is the reason why Sinn Fein have done very well north of the border, but his same leadership has obviously hampered their ambitions south of the border. His lack of knowledge on secular issues like economics has ensured that their share of the vote has remained at the same levels as it was five years ago.
In order for Sinn Fein to do better in the south, they need to get rid of Gerry Adams, and this is where their dilemma lies. In order to maintain the levels of support they’re used to in the North, Gerry Adams must stay as leader. For Sinn Fein it is therefore now a choice between north and south.
Either way, they will face disappointment. Get rid of Adams and the North will decline without any guarantee that the south will increase in support. Keep Adams and the North will hold but this means that they have given up on the south, a plank in their strategy, and if their strategy is at an end, then Sinn Fein support in the North will slowly begin to decline too.
It’s a no-win situation for Sinn Fein from now on in. We are in effect witnessing the beginning of the perpetual decline of Sinn Fein.
JOC,
i’ve written a fairly long response nad clicked post bu it seeems to have been lost.Anyway,we’ll get there.
I would like simply to say that there may indeed be a neccessary decontamination period,and it doesnt matter if its geerry or martin.Necessarry time lapse;thats all
mickhall You say “You cannot get away with dismissing almost 90 years of injustice and undemocratic government by claiming the enlightenment.” Well the enlightenment re-emerged from c19 early c20 militant nationalism to produce new ideas, like developing HR, the EU, voting systems – political processes and institutions that solve problems without resorting to violence. Only 90 years? Why not 900 hundred? So what do you do next? Commenting on footling details endlessly is an entertainment not serious politics..
mickhall You say “You cannot get away with dismissing almost 90 years of injustice and undemocratic government by claiming the enlightenment.” Well the enlightenment re-emerged from c19 early c20 militant nationalism to produce new ideas, like developing HR, the EU, voting systems – political processes and institutions that solve problems without resorting to violence. Only 90 years? Why not 900 hundred? So what do you do next? Commenting on footling details endlessly is an entertainment not serious politics..”
lets wait another 50,Shall we?
we are not going away.
Andrew,
I’m one of them. I’m still a Norner.
And what exactly is that?
It is perfectly obvious that SF missed an open goal down south, this election was the first election in three generations that was theirs for the taking. Economic meltdown and total and utter disgust with “established” political parties should, if Sinn Fein are ever to be a meaningful part of the Irish political firmament, have led to Sinn Fein romping ahead, they didn’t ergo they’re dead in the water.
If Ireland can elect a Trotskyite, I pause to repeat for emphasis, a Trotskyite got elected in Ireland, then Sinn Fein should have been topping the polls, they didn’t, they flatlined, their chance of a lifetime has gone, they may as well pack it in now.
Across the length and breadth of Europe anti-establishment parties swept into the parliament, in Holland the Freedom Party came second, in Britain the UKIP, the UKIP that bunch of loonies who needed Robert Kilroy Silk to get their vote out last time, came second, beating the Labour Party into third place! The Brits even managed to elect fascists something previously unheard of in a nation famously averse to fascist parties.
In Ireland this was Sinn Fein’s election, they fluffed it, they will never get such a chance again.
Unless, unless, no hear me out here, it’s just a crazy notion, it would never happen, but let’s just have a look. As everyone says the Left in Ireland is pretty crowded, so is the centre right, there is one last position which no one seems to cater for and which in certain areas of Dublin must have a growing if so far closet appeal. And after all Sinn Fein is a militant nationalist party, they do have past form, it wouldn’t take much of a change in their election literature but no, they wouldn’t would they?
The BNP have shown the way, could SF not follow?
It would never happen.
Would it?
A first world country does not need a third world party.
Harry
Without Gerry Adams SF are just another BNP. Unfortunately with Gerry Adams they provoke a severely pointed reaction from unionists that keeps him in place at the top.
Laughing Tory Unionist
A late response, but thanks for the link to the Indo article about Michael Mansergh – one of Ireland’s finest comedians – by Emer O’Kelly, another emerging comic talent.
I particularly liked his line about the Celtic Tiger era:
“…we were very happy to dump aspirations for the language and a united Ireland in favour of flat-screen TVs, designer shoes, and the unending sound of road-digging equipment.”
I always felt that nationalism and good shoes were incompatable … either that or the general quality of political and social comment in Ireland has reduced to complete fuckwit levels.
Brian,
What you are asking me to accept, is the very people who caused the problem by violent and imperialistic behavior, must be given priority when it comes to solving the type of problems you are alluding to and they first created.
I e the British government and its unionist gofers who created 90 years of inequality and sham government in the North, are not asked to make any major concessions, whilst those they oppressed have to concede this that and god knows what else.
I suppose you believe that Benjamin Netanyahu offer of a Bantusland and a ready supply of cheap labour, is a step forward to solving the problems of the middle east, if only those pesky Arabs would act like gentleman.
You are not proposing serious politics, what your is game is prettifying the jackboot.
The reasons why there is no major shift to Sinn Féin across the south seem fairly clear to me:
- The south already has its Irish Republic;
- They are a recently-militant Marxish [sic] party in a neoliberal economy;
- Their Che-shirt socialism loses votes to the far- and center-left;
- They are untested in government, as proven by the NIA.
To date they’ve only proven themselves as a party of struggle, not of government. Reunification would likely wipe them out entirely.