“The British Army is in occupation of part of this country.”
The BBC report on the Queen’s Birthday Honours list relating to Northern Ireland mentions the series of hoax bomb alerts at St Colm’s High School, Twinbrook, when noting the OBE for school principal Imelda Jordan [For enduring that speech by the NI Education Minister? - Ed]. But they neglected to mention the initial criticism of the principal from Sinn Féin Cllr Sam Baker [still no relation]. As I said, to paraphrase Michael Longley, start civilising yourselves.
Inappropriate, outdated and divisive awards system – reform it, bin it or ignore it.
A more perfect demonstration of how out of touch with the community she drops into to gain a substantial wage could not be clearer.
I’m sure the bauble will delight her.
are you in the tent mark?
Mark is right on this one. The acceptance of this award from the British royal family suggests plenty about the preening, self-centred vanity of the recipient.
But Stuck-record, what should we do with slabbering posters who are, “inappropriate, outdated and dishonest”? You know, the shameless type who’ll peddle BS *for years*? You’re, I’m guessing, beyond reform, so do we keep pouring a bin o’ laughs over you, or just ignore you? I think we both know the answer to that. But then we both also know how very wise you are to keep on running.
I’m no unionist but all the whinging here is unbelievable. If you find OBE’s ‘out of date’ Sammy, then don’t accept one. The Queen is entitled to give whatever award she wants to whoever she wants. If you don’t like that…tough! Just stay away from the ceremony – nobody’s forcing you to attend. Why are people constantly going out of their way to get offended?
Catholic Observer,
these awards are fine in Britain where people like that sort of thing – post GFA lets get a more suitable set on gongs. Many Britons would argue that Royalty itself should be going in the bin as well – but hey, thats really is a matter for themselves.
The Queens’ official ‘birthday’ was marked tonight by a 2 hour show on BBC 2. The ‘Trooping the Colour’ was carried out by the Irish Guards.
There were plenty of guys from Tipperary, Wexford, Kildare etc on, proud as punch, explaining how much it meant to them. And a good show it was.
Showing how ‘decent’ Irishmen, from either side of the border, are prepared to fight for democracy worldwide, and to hell with religious squabbles. No doubt Sinn Fein will have been appalled at *true* Irish (Catholic) people standing up for democracy instead of murdering evil Protestant/Atheist heretics, as was/is their raison d’etre but that’s their call.
Drifters,
“to fight for democracy worldwide”
Jeez, are you quouting directly from a Batman comic or have you been partaking of some ideological brew concocted for the ocassion?
I suppose the Englezes were doing that even before universal suffrage when they were robbing, murdering and plundering worldwide and organising the African slave trade as well – get a grip on your Union Jack knickers you great twit.
Hell, at least ‘da Brits’ weren’t slabbering any ould nonsense, then scuttling away from said risible BS as fast as their little legs will let ‘em. But you’re quite right Stuck-record, by far the wisest course for you is to just keep on running.
“these awards are fine in Britain where people like that sort of thing”
Well evidently there are a lot of people in NI who also like this “sort of thing”. There are also a lot of people in NI who don’t. Members of the former group can continue to receive whatever awards they want from the Queen, while members of the latter group should keep on refusing them. That is what tolerance and diversity are all about.
Remember it is not only the Queen who gives awards – other monarchs and presidents do too (the Irish revolutionary Count Plunkett btw was a count of the Papal Court). If I were a unionist, I would be very put off the idea of a united Ireland by the narrow mindedness and profuse bigotry evinced by some of you so-called Republicans. If you cannot tolerate such diversity while Northern Ireland is in the UK, what chance is there you will do so in a united Ireland?
In Sinn Féin’s ‘Charter for Unionist Engagement’ they assure us that “(a)ll identities and cultures will be included in shaping the vision and reality of the New Ireland”. This charter also states that “Republicans recognise that we have a journey to travel in developing our own understanding of unionism”. That “journey” is in acute need of expedition.
“The Queen is entitled to give whatever award she wants to whoever she wants.”
I thought it was the British government who recommend the people.
“The Queens’ official ‘birthday’ was marked tonight by a 2 hour show on BBC 2. The ‘Trooping the Colour’ was carried out by the Irish Guards.”
I watched it live this morning and it was rather odd to hear the band play such Irish folk classics by the Dubliner’s such as Weile Weile Waile, Whiskey in the Jar, etc…and then there was Molly Malone….. (BTW, songs refering to places in the Republic of Ireland)
And just to mention they played Finnegan’s Wake, St Patrick’s Day, Pery French’s Mountains of Mourne. But too bad they didn’t play the rousing Garryowen, a favourite with General Custer. I remember the Irish Army No 1 band played it as part of a medly of such Irish tunes at the commemeration parade in Dublin of the 90th anniversary of the 1916 Rising. “It was stirring stuff with fifes, drums, brass and bagpipes.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nikMneu7H90
“Showing how ‘decent’ Irishmen, from either side of the border, are prepared to fight for democracy worldwide, and to hell with religious squabbles.”
Oh spiffing stuff, old boy Driftwod Send the boys in they sort it out
….. with such comments you sound rather naive or juvenile!
Catholic Obsever,
“Well evidently there are a lot of people in NI who also like this “sort of thing”. There are also a lot of people in NI who don’t. ”
There are 3 solutions here – one set of awards which half the people like, a new set of awards that both like or two sets of awards one for each. I think the second option is the best whereas, if I am interpeting your self-righteous jibber-jabber correctly you prefer the first option ie the current situation.
There is certainly an arguement that you would be on the wrong side of “tolerance” and “diversity” with your choice.
Greagoir
Why not spend some time with the Army on service abroad, anyway,
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/Soldiers-working-to-build-communities.5361886.jp
BTW Does the republic of Ireland actually have an army, or just a wee pretendy one? The cowardly acction of Southern Ireland in WW2 was, or should be, an embarrassment to their government.
“There are 3 solutions here – one set of awards which half the people like, a new set of awards that both like or two sets of awards one for each. I think the second option is the best whereas, if I am interpeting your self-righteous jibber-jabber correctly you prefer the first option ie the current situation.”
PC nonsense. If suchthings offend you, then that’s your own problem. No special provision needs to be made for you. You can quite simply refuse the award should you ever be offered it. An honour is not a right.
Of course Southern Ireland and the RC church were not totally ambivalent toward Nazism, Auschswitz etc, they quite liked the idea..
http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/photo/lc/image/08/08024.jpg
Thankfully NI (and mainland UK) thought different.
“BTW Does the republic of Ireland actually have an army, or just a wee pretendy one? The cowardly acction of Southern Ireland in WW2 was, or should be, an embarrassment to their government.”
Oh but of course it has Driftwood, and it has a proud record of UN peace keeping services around the world.
As the Irish Republic is not a militaristic country as such, it punches well above it’s weight too.
http://www.thebrokeronline.eu/en/articles/Bucking-the-aid-trend/Ireland-and-UN-peacekeeping
http://www.military.ie/overseas/index.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Army
BTW, I do believe that certain folk in the UK can have unhealthy obsessions, bordering on the neurotic, with all things military. But given the UK’s history of participating in wars around the world, tis no wonder. Probably tis not good for folk either!
So its got a wee pretendy one then.
like Icelands.
Luckily it has a benevolent neighbour to protect it.
“The cowardly acction of Southern Ireland in WW2 was, or should be, an embarrassment to their government.”
Given the history of Ireland, it was a dilemma as such and Free State Ireland decided to stay neutral during the war. A legitimate action too. But between the Catholics/Nationalists from the South and the North who signed up and fought for the British and Allies during WWII (and let’s not forget WWI) your ignorant cheap sarcastic comments is an insult to them.
And good for you that Irish folk from the Republic of Ireland are still signing up today to join your British Army to protect you and your UK.
BTW, I believe the numbers of folk from NI (and the rest of the UK) signing up have dramatically dropped these last few years!
I wonder why.
Wise up,she is a school teacher – not a politician,and I find it arrogant that anyone has the nerve to suggest that all Catholics must be nnationalists or indeed that all Protestants must be unionist.
I personally would not accept such an award,but that does not mean I should criticise anyone who does.
Is it not about time that we actually respect other people’s positions without trying to demean them for having them.
The logic of some posters on here are -if she’s not a fully signed up member of SF she shouldn’t be teaching in twinbrook.
Sir Roger Casement ?
Local Security Force – Group B: RoI’s own “B Specials”?
All this drivel about UK beating Germany in ww2. The Nazis merely changed the way they set about conquering the UK and last week we saw where two of them were elected to power by the very people who crow most stridently about their defeat in the war.
The british army are here by invitation.
Unionists want them here, and irish separatists want to have them on the streets to present the fiction that catholics are oppressed in the UK. The collective acts of self-determination on this island have made clear that being defended by UK troups is not an insurmountable problem.
Nature abhors a vacuum. Which army would you rather have? Airstrikes and sixteen flavours of Ben and Jerrys icecream? European conscripts where protecting the vulnerable can be optional? an alphabet soup gob of sectarian assassins on every street? The irish army backed up by an Garda Siochana with barely a prod in the force?
What tiny percentage of NI’s landmass do british troops stationed in barracks occupy? 0.04?
And finally. What was the net gain to the island economy in the 1800s when the brits habitually stationed hundreds of thousands of hungry troups here?
Wasn’t it great that Ireland could afford to rebel.
It must have been all those hungry British soldiers who ate all the food then!!
“Sir Roger Casement ?” – Danny O’Connor
Sure, but wasn’t he stripped of his knighthood and hanged for treason against the Crown? The problem with NI is that you have too many people who are not loyal to the Irish state and who wil never be loyal to it. They cannot function within an Irish state. That isn’t just the members of the British nation, of course, since the Shinners have engineered disloyalty to the Irish state among the (token) members of the Irish nation in NI.
In regard to WW2, folks make a deliberate attempt to conflate a lack of support by the Irish state for the British army with support for Nazism, with the implication being that it was dishonourable of Ireland not to act as cannon fodder for the British state in the manner that the other members of the Commonwealth were obliged to do in that state’s wars. Nazism was an abhorrent philosophy but that doesn’t mean that Irish people should have regarded themselves as loyal minions of the British Empire. It is that latter aspect that most annoys the unionists and the West Brits. If Irish people wanted to fight the Germans, then there were more honourable means of doing so than joining an army that was hostile to their own state and that occupied a part of it.
After 800 years of colonial misrule, Ireland did not have the means to afford a brass plate for the Taoiseach’s office never mind equip an army, so joining the British army as a (dis)loyal minion wasn’t even an option. Wars are won on the home front, so population, economics, means of production, access to natural recourses, ect, count more than bravado or other intentions.
Driftwood,
excellent photo.
re. WW2 – Ireland called that wrong.
A number of countrys stayed neutral or choose their position based on the colonial behaviour of either Britain or Russia to themselves – e.g Finland, Ireland, Thailand.
Given that Britain was willing to return the 6 counties in return our involvment that makes our non-involvement not only wrong but silly.
“In regard to WW2, folks make a deliberate attempt to conflate a lack of support by the Irish state for the British army with support for Nazism, with the implication being that it was dishonourable of Ireland not to act as cannon fodder for the British state in the manner that the other members of the Commonwealth were obliged to do in that state’s wars. Nazism was an abhorrent philosophy but that doesn’t mean that Irish people should have regarded themselves as loyal minions of the British Empire. It is that latter aspect that most annoys the unionists and the West Brits.”
Very true Dave, I agree. But the likes of most Unionists will never be able to understand.
BTW, England soccer team giving the Nazi salute in 1938….seemingly it was the done thing at the time.
http://www.soccersucks.net/soccer_fascism_4.jpg
http://www.soccersucks.net/soccer_fascism.html
Greagoir,
that is a fecking screamer of a photo.
But Ireland should admit we got the WW2 call wrong.
Dev’s speech could have kept the – Englezes are occupying our country – sentiment and then addded a big BUT – greater evil etc – and their ‘promise’ to vacate at the end of the war.
When will all you Unionists realise that you are actually Irish Nationalists and Republicans at heart? Just because you came here 400 years ago doesn’t mean you have any right to bring your British values into this island. Ireland is for the Irish, its native tongue is Irish, either you adopt our native Irish customs or you get out of our island.
i saw Sir Bob Geldof on the TV the other day using some very unknightly language against them italians!
“[i]Well evidently there are a lot of people in NI who also like this “sort of thing”. There are also a lot of people in NI who don’t. Members of the former group can continue to receive whatever awards they want from the Queen, while members of the latter group should keep on refusing them. That is what tolerance and diversity are all about.
Remember it is not only the Queen who gives awards – other monarchs and presidents do too (the Irish revolutionary Count Plunkett btw was a count of the Papal Court). If I were a unionist, I would be very put off the idea of a united Ireland by the narrow mindedness and profuse bigotry evinced by some of you so-called Republicans. If you cannot tolerate such diversity while Northern Ireland is in the UK, what chance is there you will do so in a united Ireland?
In Sinn Féin’s ‘Charter for Unionist Engagement’ they assure us that “(a)ll identities and cultures will be included in shaping the vision and reality of the New Ireland”. This charter also states that “Republicans recognise that we have a journey to travel in developing our own understanding of unionism”. That “journey” is in acute need of expedition. “[/i]
Catholic Observer – it’s Catholics like you who give these Unionists hope. Unionism has no place in Ireland, the Monarchy has no place in Ireland, and liberal Catholics like you have no place in Ireland.
“But Ireland should admit we got the WW2 call wrong.”
Oh I agree too Sammy. For what was to unfold, the murderous actions of the Nazi’s that came to light after the war – Belsen, Auchwitz, Dachau, etc…makes Free State Ireland’s decision all the more regrettable. And no doubt Hitler wold have classed the Irish as inferior and expendable too.
(For Unionists, Dublin was mistakingly bombed by the Luftwaffe, killing many people.)
Also, our non participation, led to us being somewhat shunned after the war, as the western world moved on, and prospered in the subsequent boom, while we stagnated and became more insular.
But the benefit of hindsight gives us the space to draw such conclusions. At the time, the ultra conservative and dry shite nerd Dev percieved Churchill’s constant appeals, offers, and ulti-matums as more British bullying. It was indeed a dilemma.
I wonder had we officially joined the war effort, (although, just to remind Unionists, thousands of Irish volunteers enlisted for the British and allied forces), would Churchill have honoured his pledge to unite Ireland after the war. No doubt Unionists would have been up in arms had he did, war effort by us and all.
[i]“But the benefit of hindsight gives us the space to draw such conclusions. At the time, the ultra conservative and dry shite nerd Dev percieved Churchill’s constant appeals, offers, and ulti-matums as more British bullying. It was indeed a dilemma.”[/i]
Greagoir O Frainclin – Correct, Dev was an ultra conservative nerd. Ireland needed Pearse during WW2, not Dev. Pearse would have favoured joining WW2, although it would have meant fighting against the British. Pearse wrote some stirring stuff about WW1. He said:
“The last sixteen months have been the most glorious in the history of Europe. Heroism has come back to the earth…. The old heart of the earth needed to be warmed with the red wine of the battlefields. Such august homage was never before offered to God as this, the homage of millions of lives given gladly for love of country.”
and he didn’t mince his words about who Ireland’s ‘Gallant Allies’ were in the Proclamation. If the British didn’t execute Pearse, Ireland could be united and National Socialism would be the new order.
..and of course Adolf was a great fan of the British Empire – and arguably a major motivation factor in the land grab aspect of his world view (we cant pin his hatred for Jews on the Englezes). Similalry Japan did have a point when they looked out across the water and saw Englezes and French flags everywhere.
Having annexed half the globe the Englezes were on weak territory lecturing anyone on land grab having grabbed for centruries and then when their power began to wane attempted to pull the land grab ladder up after them.
Nobody has clean hands in the disaster that became WW2 but Hitler’s murderuos attitude should have made it clear to Ireland to throw in their lot with the old and soon to retire land burglar next door particlalry when the yankies joined in too. Time we publically acknowledged this – perhaps a new campaign for Kevin Myers – I think I will drop the arguementative fecker a line.
You’re a big man Stuck-record: well big enough to admit that Da Big Fella got things got wrong. Not big enough, natch, to admit you’ve got even more things wrong than Dev – Bawbybowl built/Sinn Five pulled out of government/TUV less than 20K/No Brit sovereignty et-bleedin’-cetera – which makes it bloomin’ sensible for you to keep on running.
Yeah, you be shure to say hullo to the Colonel Stuck-record. He likes a laugh as much as the next bloke. Tell him your Monopost – he’ll split his sides at the thought of Sinn Five disobeying ‘da Brits’. Though I admit he’ll be ever so slightly puzzled at a.) just how much plastic you’re showing these days & b.) why, er, the P&J-less Sinn Five aren’t *already* out of the Executive (and it lying in a heap on the ground) as wot you slabbered it would be *last year*. But as you’ve well and bitterly learnt, best by far for you to keep on running.
What’s with WWII, a war that ended more than 60 years ago? Britain has been “defending democracy” in more recent times. For instance in Iraq, a war that was entered into against the democratic wishes of the British people.
I mention it because today’s Observer has a piece on the forthcoming inquiry, which to the dismay of all is to be held behind closed doors—another slap in the eye to democracy.
But what I thought was very strange is that throughout the article not one word is to be found on the now over 100,000 Iraqi civilians who died in that war. No, the inquiry will only look at the deaths of British servicemen—all 179 of them.
And oh yes, the cost:
“The war, which was supported by Brown and which he financed as chancellor, cost the British taxpayer approximately £6.5bn, or roughly £1bn a year, equating to about £100 from every man, woman and child in the country.”
Horrors! We spent all that money to kill 100,820 civilians in an illegal war. That’s hardly value for money is it? No, I lie. We spent it to bring good old-fashioned British democracy to the barbarians of the Middle East.
So just to recap. You spend a large part of your teaching career working with generations of kids whose lives are shite and whose disadvantages are in no small way due to the policies of HMG in their country and then you accept an award from said government for being a grand girl altogether?
‘would Churchill have honoured his pledge to unite Ireland after the war. ‘
No he would’nt . Wars throw up strange bedfellows and in the midst of a war when the outcome is uncertain your ally today can be your enemy the next .
Dev made the right call . A relative of mine who was an officer in the Irish Army during the emergency said that the policy for the Irsh Army to adopt in the event of a British invasion was to shoot a few token rounds over their heads and then surrender . If the Germans invaded the policy was to try and hold them off for a brief period until the British Army could arrive . If the British defeated any German invading force the Irish Army would have become a few divisions within the Allied camp . If the Germans won then Ireland would have become a floating aircraft carrier and would have been used in a two pronged invasion of Britain from the East and West thus realising Queen Bess I and other British monarchs historical nightmares of Spanish and French conquests in earlier times .
Anyway the Irish won 8 VC’s in WWII defending Britain . They were all from the Irish Free State except one and he was a Belfast Catholic .
It’s easy to say post war that Dev took the wrong decision. Could have been worse . We could have had a leader like the Romanians who for a brief period towards the end of WW2 found themselves at war not only with the British , Americans and Russians but also with their previous allies the Germans . Thus 300,000 Romanians died because their leader could’nt make his mind up
Posted by Greagoir O Frainclin on Jun 14, 2009 @ 12:16 PM, quo he:
“I wonder had we officially joined the war effort… would Churchill have honoured his pledge to unite Ireland after the war?”
But Churchill outflanked the Dublin govt and IRA, so the headline for Slugger 1943 would have been, “The American Army is in occupation of part of this country.”
No “final push” for a UI, then. Although the IRA did draw up plans for attacking the US Army in NI. Hitler would have approved.
OC,
And he also outflanked the Poles when he double-crossed them for Stalin. Dev was right to keep him at arms length, Unlikely he would have honored anything. Perfidious Albion as usual. Another 1943 headline might have been ” Great Britain now reduced to pathetic U.S. satellite forevermore”
Greenflag,
tactically it was right because the Englezes may well have given us back the 6 counties but irrespective of that morally it was right because on balance and even allowing that Britian was allied with an another horrendous war criminal we should have showed willing to put our name to the fight against fascism.
Anecdotal stories are interesting but the big story in WW2 was the muderuous intent of Adolf and our country should have had the balls to say it called it wrong part;y because history has a habit of repeating itelsf and ofalso because as we all know its good and healty and a sign of strength to recognise our own mistakes.
Stuck-record: “because history has a habit of repeating itelsf and ofalso because as we all know its good and healty and a sign of strength to recognise our own mistakes”. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha: dearie me, some of your best stuff yet! Keep ‘em coming! And Keep. On. Running.
Sammy
“[i]our country should have had the balls to say it called it wrong part;y because history has a habit of repeating itelsf and ofalso because as we all know its good and healty and a sign of strength to recognise our own mistakes.”[/i]
What’s the point in the Republic bringing up that old chestnut when it has successfully managed to gate-crash the party?
Flags of countries who fought in D-day
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_tPbK8qTYtjM/Sh8GIuJIkRI/AAAAAAAAA2w/SWE91lnZmWE/s1600-h/dday.jpg
What’s the point in the Republic bringing up that old chestnut when it has successfully managed to gate-crash the party?
Well as I mentioned above history has a habit of repeating itself, we should acknowledge our mistakes and its a welcome distraction from the economy.
…but if the Irish state makes public its mistake in WW2, everyone who visits Bayeux in France will question why the Irish Tricolour represents those Irish who died on D-day. Best to keep it hush, hush.
UMH,
Not that anybody is going to take moral lectures on their past from the British.
There wasn’t any offer from Churchill to betray the unionists in return for Ireland’s entry into the war. Those who claim otherwise are reading too much into a telegram that simply said “Now or never. A nation once again.” That is not how the business of state – of soliciting an ally – is conducted, even by a bi-polar alcoholic. There are things called ‘ambassadors’ who can deliver things called ‘proposals’ to the heads of foreign governments. If Churchill wouldn’t put in writing a proposal to betray his promise to the unionists, then that was a reason not to trust his offer in addition to not trusting the promise of a man who had thereby broken his promise to unionists.
The US and most of Europe were also neutral at this point. It is more likely Churchill saw any opportunity to destroy Ireland in short measure, as a declaration of war on Germany would have done. In less than a week of bombing, Cork, Galway, and Dublin would be a pile of rubble and the nation would be buried under it. It would have been tantamount to an act of self-genocide for a city that had no protection against air raids – no shelters, no underground tube network, etc – and no level of preparedness or financial means to declare war on Germany. You win a war by building and buying equipment to fight it and by having access to natural recourses, etc, and not by throwing eager Paddies under panzer tanks. Ireland would have been in ruins, and would not be any position to engage in any nation-building exercise as Churchill would have known full well. The British army would have occupied it to gain control of its ports, stepping over the rotting corpses of the nation as it did so.
De Valera did not see the form of unity that he believed that Churchill offered as being a sovereign independent nation-state but rather he saw it as being an Ireland that was reunited under British sovereignty. In other words, the same Redmondite agenda that was already rejected (but that is not resurrected b the British government in new clothes under the GFA). He was well aware that those who oppose Irish culture would seek to censor it and that such censorship was a direct violation of the right to national self-determination. Below is de Valera explaining to the Oireachtais why he would not accept Churchill’s offer:
“I believe that the restoration of the national language is the surest guarantee that this nation will continue to exist. Much as I would desire to see unity — and I told you it was because of Partition I came into politics — much as I would desire to see that, which, as far as I am concerned, would be the crowning of anything I ever attempted as far as practical political action was concerned, I would not grasp even that at the cost of losing the opportunity of restoring the language. Therefore, I would not pay that price.
There is another price I would not pay. Suppose we were to get unity in the country provided we were to give up the principles that are here in this first Article of the Constitution — the ‘sovereign right of the nation to choose its own form of Government, to determine its relations with other nations, and to develop its life, political, economic, and cultural, in accordance with its own genius and traditions’— I would not sacrifice that right, because without that right you have not freedom at all. Although freedom for a part of this island is not the freedom we want — the freedom we would like to have, this freedom for a portion of it, freedom to develop and to keep the kernel of the Irish nation is something, and something that I would not sacrifice, if by sacrificing it we were to get a united Ireland and that united Ireland was not free to determine its own form of Government, to determine its relations with other countries, and, amongst other things, to determine, for example, whether it would or would not be involved in war.
Our people have the same right as any other people to determine these vital matters for themselves and they ought not to surrender them in advance to anybody or for any consideration. Certainly, as far as this Government is concerned, we are not going to surrender that right — for any consideration, even the consideration of a united Ireland.” – Eamon de Valera