Some of those questions that just won’t go away
As has been noted earlier, the family of Coleraine murder victim, Kevin McDaid, have issued a statement critical of the PSNI’s handling of events in Coleraine in the period of time leading up to his murder. The PSNI’s response- issued by Assistant Chief Constable, Judith Gillespie (it seems ACC Finlay’s been benched, possibly following his ‘mavericks‘ faux pas?) is interesting for what it doesn’t say rather than its actual content.
There is no attempt to deny direct contact with loyalist paramilitaries, as has been suggested by the family of Kevin McDaid, and it is becoming clearer that, with time, the nature of those negotiations and the contacts on the loyalist side will become an increasing source of anxiety for the PSNI, not least proving the ACC Finlay directed assertion that those implicated were mavericks in the face of evidence as to the less than peripheral status of those now charged with the murder.
Nor is there an explanation as to why the PSNI would involve themselves in negotiating the removal of flags in this particular estate, allegedly at the behest of loyalist paramilitaries, whose record of flying flags in protestant and mixed residential communities remains unparalleled across the north of Ireland.
Meanwhile, ACC Gillespie’s stout defense of the PSNI officers’ actions in the estate during the violent attack is clearly not shared by columnist Kevin Myers, though his central contention that the murder is the result of an emasculated police service (and, surprise surprise, that’s the fault of republicans) collapses with the very mention of the name Robert Hamill, whose murder in Portadown was, of course, in full view of what Myers clearly believes to have been a more professional and effective policing service.As I see it, the Police Ombudsman will require answers to the following questions:
1. Who initiated the contacts during the day when ‘tensions’ were purportedly raised due to the display of an Irish Tricolour?
2. What specific ‘threats’ were relayed from loyalists to the PSNI regarding a possible loyalist invasion of the area concerned?
3. Who suggested the ‘compromise’ which involved removal of the flag and who was the loyalist ‘guarantor’ that the deal would effectively end the threat of violence?
4. Did the PSNI even consider informing their loyalist sources that threats of violence against the local community on the basis of the presence of flags were unacceptable and that the presence of flags was a non-issue for the PSNI, as they clearly are for the organisation in virtually every other district in the 6 counties?
5. Why did the PSNI put such faith in the word of the ‘guarantor’ to the extent of reducing the effective policing presence in the area?
6. A number of newspaper reports have indicated that loyalists were amassing outside a loyalist bar in the town in the period leading up to the attack. Were PSNI officers aware of this mobilisation and, if so, what actions were taken?
7. Were the PSNI officers in the area armed and, if so, why did they not fire warning shots into the air to attempt to disperse the crowd?
Kevin Myers can go fuck himself, even if he occasionally right
Au contraire in fact — the two murders resulted from exactly the same sets of circumstances. The cops thought “Get out of the car and get my head kicked in or worse -er no thanks” call in the heavies.
Few psni officers are equipped physically or by inclination to interfere/act in confrontational situations — got to get the heavies in (a brief look at your local average plod will show that heavies they are not)
They work with “community representatives” to “seek to defuse” situations The one lesson the plod has learned is that not acting is the best option for the individual officer.
Q you were reluctant to act because the victim was a catholic ?
A er no I was reluctant to act because I did not want MY head kicked in
Q why did you not use weapons?
A you are joking of course -look what happened when we used to use weapons
No myers has it spot on thats the way the psni works now —apportionment of blame is pointless
..and how long will their enquiry take.
Presumably the PSNI and/or local people should be able to confirm if the police were armed?
It would be also useful to hear from the PSNI what action they are expected to take if a member(s) of the public are in serious danger when they are both armed and unarmed.
Kevin Myers is a fantasist , and a plonker, Nuff said .
Yes I have read his book , Star Trek had nothing on it as far as imagination is concerned .
Biff1
Barnshee – as you seem to have an insight into police force thinking, what was the RUC’s excuse for sitting on their hands?
They (PSNI) still have a mindset that the Army will come in and do the stuff that matters. But let’s not lose sight of the fact, that when the police get it wrong, as in Menezes, no win situation. It’s a lot easier to prosecute a Lee Clegg than a cop. But the image of the PSNI as a bunch of hapless hand wringers, a sort of wimpy version of the RSPCA, is going to be hard to dispel.
PSNI arms training is hopeless. A few hours at Ballykinler, and no army involvement. because that might compromise their ‘equality’ agenda. So they aren’t allowed on the specialist military ranges.
Plenty of hours learning Sociology and ‘Community Relations’ workshops more than make up for this however. Step forward Professor Jackie McDonald.
Barnshee, you seem to have no idea of how the PSNI are armed. They are not sitting in their cars with only a baton to protect them. Every PSNI car contains at least one sub-machine armed officer.
Your analysis is extremely flawed. The real question is why the heavily armed PSNI officer chose to stay in his armoured car and watch 2 ‘taigs’ get beaten to death rather than intervene with his overwhelming firepower.
One MP5 beats 40 sticks/bats/bottles every time.
The PSNI have no difficulty firing their weapons on some occaisions:
here – http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6452227.stm
or here –
http://www.policeombudsman.org/modules/press/press.cfm/action/detail/Press_ID/168/Archive/2007/year/200
or best of all here –
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/4223570.stm
Says it all really
I believe that we now underestand why loyalist terrorist groups have not been pressured into decommisioning their arsenal of weapons.
It is so that the PSNI will know how much forelock tugging to give to these murder gangs.
With regard to Kevin Myers I believe he would be just the man to obtain permission from Unionist politicians or more importantly the leaders of still armed loyalist terrorist groups for the police to shoot the worst offenders of loyalist marauding mobs when they become rabid and go loco.
Kevin you are the man for the job. Grasp your opportunity and show us that you belive in this crap that you write.
“loyalist paramilitaries, whose record of flying flags in protestant and mixed residential communities remains unparalleled across the north of Ireland”
Where do you want them to fly them? in the South?
I recently spoke with a family member who is a cop (to my eternal shame).
I quote -
“when we draw our guns we have to fill out a load of paperwork so it’s not usually worth it’
“we are only allowed to use our guns when our lives are in danger”.
This person claimed they weren’t allowed to use their weapon if it was a member of the public whose life was in danger. Surely that’s wrong? I’m embarrassed by the psni.
Bring back the RUC
Unbelievable
Just to get this right you’re saying that if a cop was being beaten to death its ok to draw his weapon but if a member of the public is being beaten to death it’s a no no?
Fr Pat
Bring back the RUC?Yeah they saved Robert Hamill alright.
What did Gerry and Martin when they said that if the party did support policing they would “put manners” on the PSNI. What did they mean?
skullion – “Yeah they saved Robert Hamill alright”
At least the RUC hadn’t “manners” put on them making their job more difficult.
Fr Pat
If by putting “manners” on the police you mean making them accountable that was the job of Patten.As for making the job more difficult i don’t see how it has.Both the RUC and PSNI were quite happy to sit and watch.Not much difficulty in that.
skullion – was it Patton who brought in the rule that officers aren’t allow to draw their weapons unless they are personally in danger?
Chris,
the rules governing use of weapons should be available from the PSNI under freedom of information – why dont you ask them on behalf of Slugger/yourself and then people wouldnt spend so much time going round in circles.
Fr Pat
I don’t think their lives were in danger when they were firing at chimps in Belfast Zoo.Bottom line is that society expects police officers to protect life and to a lesser extent property.On this occasion the Psni officers sat in their patrol car and did nothing to protect the general public.In fact you could argue that by doing nothing they facilitated the murder of Mr McDaid.From reports Mr McDaid went to the aid of Mr Fleming who was being assaulted and as a result of his courage ended up dead.Meanwhile at least two heavily armed policemen sat and watched.Its pretty shameful that the general public cannot rely on its police service to protect it.
firbolg
absolute class.
what would have an garda siochana have done differently?
scullion – “I don’t think their lives were in danger when they were firing at chimps in Belfast Zoo.”
The monkey incident was in 2005, so the rule must have been introduced after that. Read Firbolg’s second link, March 2007, 2 months after Gerry and Martin said they would put manners on the PSNI.
Correction scullion -
Firbolg’s 1st link (the shooting in Ardoyne)
[b]January 2007[/b] – Gerry Adams announces to Republicans that they will “put manners” on the PSNI if they support policing, by the end of the month the party gives its support to the PSNI.
[b]March 2007[/b] – BBC news reports, PSNI fire shots as man flees car. ‘Sinn Fein is questioning why bullets were fired in a busy residential area.
The party’s north Belfast assembly member said: “Whatever this person was or was not at, and none of us know, he was not armed, there was no exchange of fire.
“There had to be another way of apprehending this person as opposed to firing shots. We could have had another dead person in this community tonight.”
[b]May 2009[/b] – Two PSNI officers fail to respond as loyalist mob beats man to death. PSNI officers reveal they can’t draw heir weapons unless they are personally in danger
When did the law change?
Who was responsible for bringing about the change?
When are the going to resign from the policing board?
I suppose that if the police had exercised their duty and been more diligent in attempting to rescue Mr McDaid from his murderers then it is quite possible that they would have placed themselves in physical, indeed even mortal danger which might have caused them to draw and even fire their weapons.
But as they fell miserably short in the exercise of that duty Mr McDaid died, another man was critically injured and two women, one pregnant were beaten unmercifully by a rampant mob of sectarian thugs exercising what they saw as their God-given right to kick vulnerable, defenceless Catholics – and those who associate with Catholics – senseless.
The long and miserable history of NI police officers openly tolerating (and sometimes encouraging) such behaviour from loyalist gangs can only but reinforce distrust for such a force by whatever name it is called. It is not the rebranding by uniform, title or insignia that counts it is a complete change in ethos that is necessary.
This terrible deed and the police behaviour before and during its occurrence do not reflect well upon the impartiality of the PSNI and give aid and comfort not only to loyalist thugs but also to those republican dissidents who can point to such partiality as further justification for their own misdeeds.
Fr Pat
Very difficult to be in danger sitting in your car a hundred yards away.Perhaps if they had approached the mob they could then have claimed to be in danger and then draw their weapons.But sure doing that just seems like too much bother.As for the incident in Ardoyne a cynic might think that the police have no bother firing at taigs.
skullion – approaching the mob may give them the excuse needed, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s another rule against that just in case ‘rouge’ officers are heavy handed.
[i]in case ‘rouge’ officers are heavy handed[/i]
The ones with nice pink cheeks?
lol, don’t tell the bishop.
If it is true and the psni did watch what went on does anybody agree the only word that could or should be used is cowards
concern – it depends on whether they were allowed to use their guns. Two cops with truncheons and batons is no match to dozens of thugs yielding weapons.
It really comes down to them being allowed to use the guns in a built up area when there is no threat to their life. I even doubt if a tazer would have been effective in this situation, but at least it might have been a greater deterrent than a truncheon.
The armchair generals are out in force today. Its amazing how many people know exactly what should have been done a week after the offence. Clearly a number of you must have witnessed this dispicable deed in Coleraine to be so up to speed with all the facts. I suggest that you stop blogging immediately and get down to the nearest police station and tell the police what you know so that more animals can be arrested and charged on the heels of your info. On the other hand maybe what you saying is all crap.
The BBC’s report of the family’s statement doesn’t mention the accusation of the police standing by while the ‘mob’ (since when has c30-40 people consituted a mob?) attacked their victims.
Has anyone other than one member of the family made this allegation?
I can understand that, indolence apart, the police might have been reluctant to get involved in a situation where they might have to draw and use their weapons when none of the assailants appeared to be carrying firearms
By the way, just out of interest, was last Sunday an important day in the Republican calendar? Was there any particular reason why tricolours would have been on display? They don’t seem to have been elsewhere.
Observer
“The armchair generals are out in force today. Its amazing how many people know exactly what should have been done a week after the offence”
indeed, amazing the power of the media and eyewitnesses to enable people to examine situations and pass comment. Do you have an issue with unionist murders been reported?
“I suggest that you stop blogging immediately and get down to the nearest police station and tell the police what you know so that more animals can be arrested and charged on the heels of your info”
No need, the eyewitnesses already have, although perhaps the people here who appear to disbelieve the eyewitnesses should get down to the copshop and pass on their information.
Glencoppagagh
How many people constitute a mob? why does this matter?
Does the fact that Tricolours were flying make a difference? do you think the prison sentences (if any) should be reduced because of this? was McDaid carrying a Tricolour, did he put them up?
k: One MP5 beats 40 sticks/bats/bottles every time.
With a 15 or 30 round magazine?
But actually, two armed army corporals were lynched by a republican mob during the troubles. Also, when Michael Stone murdered 3 people in a cemetery using hand guns and grenades, he still only just escaped with his life. Being armed doesn’t make you safe.
“republican mob” aka the mourners walking behind the hearse the 2 undercover soldiers rammed into at the funeral of one of Stones victims.
Stone himself been ‘lucky’ that the RUC were waiting around the corner to rescue him when things went a bit Pete Tong
Sorry if I’m being naive here (no expert on policing), but is it possible that the policemen in the car were local? And with the very possible involvement of the UDA, were thinking of the safety of themselves and their families, maybe fearing later repsrisals had they intervened? Just a thought.
Fin
U are right lucky old stone. Not so lucky now for him
fin – do you think you have addressed my actual point?
re: the two signals corporals – I have not yet seen a conspiracy theory that makes anything like as much sense as the cock-up theory. They did not ‘ram’ anyone. I saw the footage, by the way – it certainly looked like a mob. Pretty much indistinguishable from loyalists in fact.
As for Stone – I suppose that’s another conspiracy theory then. Should the police have been closer to the grave? Should they have searched everyone going to the funeral? Should they have driven off as Stone approached the road? Should they have handed Stone over for a lynching?
My understanding of the two solders story was the people at that time thought it was a copycat attack
Reader why do you bother responding to nonsense from fin? It has nothing to do with the current situation.
mmmh cock-up theory.
Reader, if you’re too young to remember, have a peek on Youtube for how the RUC policed republican funerals.
In these 2 examples at what point do mourners become a republican mob,
Joe, read the thread, Reader brought up these incidents, but you are absolutely correct its nonsense and distracts from the point in hand.
Even if the police are unable to shoot does that really prevent them from using their guns as a deterrent?
Regardless, do the officers feel that their personal safety is worth more than the safety of 4 civilians?
apologies fin.
Nonchalant Repartee – “Even if the police are unable to shoot does that really prevent them from using their guns as a deterrent?”
What do you want them to do, wave their guns in the air and charge?
“[b]Some of those questions that just won’t go away[/b]
here’s one of those questions which won’t go away,
“why were the police not allowed to draw their weapons in a residential area of Coleraine?
have you any answer Chris Donnelly ?
fin
Unionist murders should be reported as should all murders. They have also to be utterly condemned. I have no problem with the facts being reported. What I can’t stand is the whataboutery on this site by people who probably don’t give a damn about the family of the poor man who was murdered. He has not even been buried and folk on this thread, and others, are pointing fingers at the police for their action or non action and putting forward ideas about what the two?? policemen should have done. I wasn’t there so I don’t know what exactly happened. The eye witness statements have to be examined in a court of law and the truth of what happened determined. What we do know is that one poor man, a husband and a father, lies dead and a friend is fighting for his life. Could we not at least wait until after the funeral before we all put in our penny worth and start making comparisons with other atrocities?