Some of those questions that just won’t go away
As has been noted earlier, the family of Coleraine murder victim, Kevin McDaid, have issued a statement critical of the PSNI’s handling of events in Coleraine in the period of time leading up to his murder. The PSNI’s response- issued by Assistant Chief Constable, Judith Gillespie (it seems ACC Finlay’s been benched, possibly following his ‘mavericks‘ faux pas?) is interesting for what it doesn’t say rather than its actual content.
There is no attempt to deny direct contact with loyalist paramilitaries, as has been suggested by the family of Kevin McDaid, and it is becoming clearer that, with time, the nature of those negotiations and the contacts on the loyalist side will become an increasing source of anxiety for the PSNI, not least proving the ACC Finlay directed assertion that those implicated were mavericks in the face of evidence as to the less than peripheral status of those now charged with the murder.
Nor is there an explanation as to why the PSNI would involve themselves in negotiating the removal of flags in this particular estate, allegedly at the behest of loyalist paramilitaries, whose record of flying flags in protestant and mixed residential communities remains unparalleled across the north of Ireland.
Meanwhile, ACC Gillespie’s stout defense of the PSNI officers’ actions in the estate during the violent attack is clearly not shared by columnist Kevin Myers, though his central contention that the murder is the result of an emasculated police service (and, surprise surprise, that’s the fault of republicans) collapses with the very mention of the name Robert Hamill, whose murder in Portadown was, of course, in full view of what Myers clearly believes to have been a more professional and effective policing service.As I see it, the Police Ombudsman will require answers to the following questions:
1. Who initiated the contacts during the day when ‘tensions’ were purportedly raised due to the display of an Irish Tricolour?
2. What specific ‘threats’ were relayed from loyalists to the PSNI regarding a possible loyalist invasion of the area concerned?
3. Who suggested the ‘compromise’ which involved removal of the flag and who was the loyalist ‘guarantor’ that the deal would effectively end the threat of violence?
4. Did the PSNI even consider informing their loyalist sources that threats of violence against the local community on the basis of the presence of flags were unacceptable and that the presence of flags was a non-issue for the PSNI, as they clearly are for the organisation in virtually every other district in the 6 counties?
5. Why did the PSNI put such faith in the word of the ‘guarantor’ to the extent of reducing the effective policing presence in the area?
6. A number of newspaper reports have indicated that loyalists were amassing outside a loyalist bar in the town in the period leading up to the attack. Were PSNI officers aware of this mobilisation and, if so, what actions were taken?
7. Were the PSNI officers in the area armed and, if so, why did they not fire warning shots into the air to attempt to disperse the crowd?
fin “He has not even been buried and folk on this thread, and others, are pointing fingers at the police for their action”
No, it wasn’t the police who made things worse, it was the loyalists according to councilor Dallat and deputy first minister Martin McGuinness.
we all want to know about those ‘questions that just won’t go away’
I’m only a Priest, ask the bishop
Fr Pat McGroin, your ‘character’ is boring and pathetic, especially given the week that’s in it.
pl, my spiritual subjects are more important than any other. Our holy father, the Pope, commands that we obey him.
fin: In these 2 examples at what point do mourners become a republican mob
I didn’t refer to them as a mob on the Stone case. His pursuers were well spread out, and the leaders might have had the strength of character and moral authority to do an arrest. Or there might have been a lynching. I don’t actually know.
In the corporals case – the crowd became a mob when they started acting like one. It’s the same distinction as for any crowd that becomes a mob; there can come a point where the only common purpose is to do harm.
[i]What do you want them to do, wave their guns in the air and charge?
Posted by Joe soap on May 30, 2009 @ 07:28 PM[/i]
Perhaps a more morally justifiable act than doing nothing at all. No?
“It’s the same distinction as for any crowd that becomes a mob; there can come a point where the only common purpose is to do harm”
So when the 2 soldiers drove into the hearse they were a mob?
Recent behaviour of the met police in London at the G20 protests, a mob?
Reader, is it sunstroke or what are you smoking, they might have arrested Stone? you nutter, and done what marched him down to the local police station? FFS
Why are you trying to turn a thread about unionists getting into taxis going to an estate and kicking the sh*t out of any nationalists they could find into a thread about ‘republican mobs’
fin,
“Why are you trying to turn a thread about unionists getting into taxis going to an estate and kicking the sh*t out of any nationalists they could find into a thread about ‘republican mobs’ ”
Because Reader and several others cannot possibly defend the misdeeds of their fellow Unionists?
It would be amusing watching them wriggle this way and that if the horrific murder of Kevin McDaid and the cowardly assault on a pregnant woman were far from being a laughing matter.
Speculation and rumour is not helpful, nor is the warped picture being painted by the media.
The Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist community from Coleraine feel like they are being vilified, yet there is no mention whatsoever of the republican paramilitaries who live in Somerset Drive and direct a campaign of sectarian intimidation against ordinary Protestants from the Heights.
There is also no mention that dissident and mainstream republicans, from other areas of County Londonderry and further afield, have been seen in the Somerset Drive area on many occasions.
Sunday night’s attack should be rightly condemned, but so should the hold republican murder gangs have in the area, causing the breakdown of community relations…
Concerned Loyalist,
Are you saying there’s no whataboutery? Clearly you haven’t been reading the threads on Slugger.
BTW I’m interested to know what members of the Shame of the Bann chanted from across the river when Kevin’s remains were being brought home. Do you know?
Allegedly the PSNI were talking to some of the arrested just before the attack and stood back for their own safety.Bears all the hallmarks of the Hamill case.
Gabriel,
“Bears all the hallmarks of the Hamill case.”
That’s what I just commented over on the Myers thread. You’d think the Unionist terrorists would have learned, but no.
Concerned Loyalist
Perhaps certain members of the loyalist community are being ‘vilified’ for the infuriating amounts of whataboutery they seem to be engaging in.
Nonchalant Repartee,
“the infuriating amounts of whataboutery they seem to be engaging in.”
“Seem to be”?
fin: So when the 2 soldiers drove into the hearse they were a mob?
I thought you had agreed it was a cock-up?
fin: Reader, is it sunstroke or what are you smoking, they might have arrested Stone? you nutter, and done what marched him down to the local police station? FFS
Yes! On several occasions IRA men were arrested by bystanders. Others were given first aid after blowing themselves up. Should they all have been lynched as you imply Stone should have been? In the end, Stone was arrested, was convicted of murder and was imprisoned. Was that the wrong thing to do to him?
fin: Why are you trying to turn a thread about unionists getting into taxis going to an estate and kicking the sh*t out of any nationalists they could find into a thread about ‘republican mobs’
Actually, if you will only check above, you will see that this is a thread about what the police should have done about a mob attack. Blame Chris, not me. The other threads are thataway —->
13.Concerned Loyalist
Perhaps certain members of the loyalist community are being ‘vilified’ for the infuriating amounts of whataboutery they seem to be engaging in.
Posted by Nonchalant Repartee on May 31, 2009 @ 11:26 AM
It may be whataboutery, but the actions of the scum element in Somerset Drive were the driving force behind the attacks and subsequent killing of Kevin McDaid.
I do not condone the killing of another human being, nor do the majority of people in the town, but I have to say that there’s a feeling of indifference towards the attacks because of the disgusting behaviour of hoods and/or republicans from Somerset Drive (they’re one and the same in Coleraine) during the past 4-5 years, at the very least.
USA,
“And you finished with this beauty: “but I have to say that there’s a feeling of indifference towards the attacks”.”
Word reaches me that he’s thinking of changing his handle to “Unconcerned Loyalist”.
Thanks you very mach.
Medyumlar,
Bir şey değil, arkadaşım!
As far as the Ombudsman’s Office goes I wouldn’t place too much faith in their Office rocking the boat for Sir Hugh and his senior Officers in the Special Branch. Sir Hugh is lining himself up for a nice little earner back in blighty there is no way the Ombudsman’s Office is going to spoil the party for him it is as straightforward as that.
In relation to one Chris’s previous points “ that it is crucial that senior nationalist Politicians hold the PSNI to account.” The nationalist political leadership have virtually ignored the murder of Mr. Mc Daid. They have also to their lasting shame ignored the conduct of the PSNI on the day. Parallels with Robert Hamil’s murder sit uncomfortably with those like Martin Mc Guinness Alex Maskey and Gerry Adams who have embraced a newly repackaged Unionist Police Force. The command structure of which is accountable to no one.
It took Martin Mc Guinness four days working in hand in glove with Sir Hugh Orde his PSNI police chief to concoct a statement which would not offend the sensibilities of Sir Hugh or his Officers in the Special Branch nor question the integrity of his force or their unwillingness or inability to defend Catholics, which was very decent of him and no doubt will be greatly appreciated by Sir Hugh when he heaves a huge sigh of relief and heads back to a nice cushy job with his bit on the side in England.
It definitely appears that Martin Mc Guinness, like Mark Durkan, Gerry Adams, Alban Maginness and Barbara de Brun decided to leave the explosive issue of the PSNI‘s dismal failure to protect Catholics from sectarian attack well alone and decided to concentrate on getting themselves on that big European gravy train on the fourth of June instead, without stepping on any toes or being too controversial avoiding causing offense to the sensibilities of Sir Hugh. Maybe he’ll recommend them for a knighthood for being so considerate and compliant.
Our inspirational Political and Spiritual leadership managed to disgrace themselves by ignoring the murder completely, pretending it did not happen for the last week. Nationalists concerned about the bonifides of the PSNI, in this instance will have absolutely no chance of having their concerns addressed by the great and the good of Nationalism. I.e. the above mentioned, especially as there is an election only 2 days away. Still if anything it illustrates perfectly just how politically correct and servile they have become.
Incidentally still nothing from Cardinal Brady regarding the PSNI’s failure to protect vulnerable individuals and communities from sectarian attack it has now been over a week since the murder of Mr. Mc Daid. His silence like that of the rest of the Catholic Hierarchy is shameful. Don’t expect anything soon either as they have managed to evade making any statement on the conduct of the PSNI on the day of Mr Mc Daids murder thus far to their shame and may feel the pressure is off. This put simply is an abdication of responsibilty and is not good enough.
tom,
Did I not read your above comment on another thread, in its entirety? I’m prepared to admit that senility is closing in in my case, but…
The reason my comment is posted on both threads is because it is relevant to both threads.
I was hoping that one of Euro Candidates Barbara De Brun or Alban Mc Guinness would be spurred into action and answer the question of why they both skulked away and refused to comment on the conduct of the PSNI on the day of Mr Mc Daids murder over the last week. No doubt it may have been seen as to problematic, given the endorsement of the PSNI leadership by both candidates.
I would have settled for one of the leading lights from Sinn Fein, the SDLP or the Catholic Church explaining why they ignored the Police’s role in failing to prevent Mr. Mc Daids murder. I would even have settled for one of their zealous election campaigners stepping up to the plate and answering the posts but alas it was not to be. They could not justify their failure to ask these awkward questions about the PSNI.
No doubt they don’t have time to worry about the death of Mr. Mc Daid or the fact that Mr. Fleming is still clinging to life in hospital. There are post election dinners to be organised and enjoyed by both the SDLP and Sinn Fein. One can only hope they choke on them, somewhat uncharitable but there you are.
tom,
Thanks for reassuring me that I’m not going gaga :^)
“I was hoping that one of Euro Candidates Barbara De Brun or Alban Mc Guinness would be spurred into action and answer the question of why they both skulked away and refused to comment on the conduct of the PSNI on the day of Mr Mc Daids murder over the last week.:
Why confine your wish to Nationalist candidates? The murder should be everybody’s business. The police belong to all of us.