Cameron drives last nail in the coffin of a separate Human Rights Bill
David Cameron has driven another nail in the coffin of a Northern Ireland Bill of Human Rights. The Newsletter has got a statement from him saying he would not enact any Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland as envisaged by the Human Rights Commission.
“It is important the rights of everyone in our society are protected,” he said. But Conservatives and Unionists do not want to take power away on issues such as social and economic policy from democratically-elected representatives and hand it over to unelected judges. That is not good for democracy. We are proposing that any Northern Ireland-specific issues are best dealt with in a sub-section of a UK-wide Bill of Rights and Responsibilities – protecting rights and respecting the role of democratically-elected representatives.”
The Conservative leader has always been clear he wants to limit the scope of rights legislation generally to the basic and the general and to rein in on any consequential extension of the power of judges. Locally though, his move is bound to be seen through the sectarian prism, as another tilt towards Unionism and a further sign that Cameron does not regard every section of the GFA as set in stone. This will worry nationalists, although I very much doubt if Cameron would alter the basic architecture. His next move, scaling back the expenses entitlement from the abstaining Sinn Fein MPs now seems likely as part of the general expenses reform. Note by the way, that Sir Christopher Kelly’s Committee on Standards in Public Life will take evidence in Belfast on Wednesday 1 July – their only out-of-London visit scheduled so far.
Cameron’s support for unionism in NI diverges from his offer of guarded engagement with the SNP government. Contrast his sparring relationship with Alex Salmond with his awkward alliance with the Ulster Unionists, after failing to achieve a federation in a proposed new ” Northern Ireland Conservative and Unionist party.” under his leadership.. This looks like an experiment rather than an election-winning strategy.
As Cameron says, any separate NI provisions would now be a footnote in his UK Bill of Rights. As the Secretary of State has shelved NIHRC’s recent Advice on a comprehensive and detailed NI Bill, how will Labour proceed?. There must be doubts now that any NI specific rights Bill will emerge at all. This would be consistent with the recanting views of the first NIHR Commissioner Brice Dickson in a recent memo to the Joint Committee on Human Rights, rejecting his successor’s advice.
All of Cameron’s moves in the devolution scene seem designed to create a stronger framework for the evolving relationship between the centre and nations and regions. If he makes any party gains out if it, so much the better, but he knows he starts from a very low base. Not everyone will see the wider horizon beyond the Copeland islands in Cameron’s approach. I doubt if they should have any real cause for concern though, and they should try to control their paranoia.
Brian
Sorry I had to put one through the lens o’ truth:
Some people’s suspicions are implacable. I anticipated the fears but I have absolutely no understanding of them at all
Congratulations. Your earlier post has succeeded in proving that Nationalism should not trust any British government. Fortunately it’s one I don’t think we have to learn.
All the talk of “wider context” and you miss the main point. This is a dangerous precedent from a party that is throwing out a roughly hands off status quo leaning neutrality for the past decade and a half for promoting Unionism and unilateral changes. It’s not a matter of trusting the Labour government, but knowing where you stand. If moves like this somehow manage to avoid startling the lead horses in the stable, well there are plenty of crazier ones still floating about.
If FF had moved up with even moderate success it may have acted as a counterweight. But as it is it risks upsetting the delicate balance of power here, and the potential consequences of that.
Still running away from your years of fantastical slabber, stuck-record Sammy? What a surprise. Or do you want to explain how you, the most boring single-transferrable poster Slugger has ever suffered from, have managed to shift from asserting Cameron couldn’t do things to how Cameron shouldn’t do those very same things? If you’re going to make things up, all well and good, but to avoid being risible as well as laughable, you do have to stick to your first fabulation.
Now now LTU – any good classicist can remind you that risable comes directly from the Latin verb to laugh. So risable and laughable are in effect synonymns
Laughing (Tory) Unionist/Mr Muddle
Still running away from your years of fantastical slabber, stuck-record Sammy?
???
More contradictory muddle – drink taken perchance?
BW ,
‘The legacy of this recent history is partly responsible for the UUs’ reluctance to team up tightly with Cameron today. ‘
You mean Lady Sylvia’s reluctance . The rest of the UUP have sold out to the Tories as it’s their only hope of an internal NI political revival vis a vis the DUP. They have no other raison d’etre .
‘But NI is a sidebar he has yet seriously to think about.’
Indeed . He would not be the first nor the last Tory leader to leave the serious thinking until the fit hits the shan . Heath closed down Stormont not because he was pro nationalist . He simply had no faith in the ability of Chichester Clark and the rest of the Unionist leadership of the time to restore ‘normality ‘ in NI and by doing so not making a bad situation even worse .
‘ It would be creative if some nationalist critics would be more open to wider contexts as well as reflecting on the real strength of their political position, the three strands, the mutual guarantees, the international treaty etc.’
I would think the attitude of NI nationalists and republicans at this time is it’s early days yet to mess with what after all took 35 years to ‘fix’ and even then the ‘fix’ is seen as still under threat from dissident elements within unionism and republicanism .
‘ Saying No very grimly a lot isn’t a refutation or any other kind of argument. Remember Paisley and Molyneaux in 1985. ‘
Not a comparison I’d make . Paisley was saying no to any power sharing in Northern Ireland ever , and Molyneaux was for full integration of NI within the UK, which one imagines is what the current UCUNF ultimate default position must be in the event of an expected Assembly collapse . Irish nationalists and republicans in NI are still for power sharing within NI with Unionism and i think that’s about the widest context possible for NI at this time . This may change as time goes on but for now thats about the best that can be hoped for .
The Tories and the UUP /DUP making any attempt to undermine the present uneasy consensus will just further increase mutual distrust no matter how pragmatic sounding their rationale . NI is not a place where reason sticks it’s head above the walls very often without getting ‘bricked ‘.
Stuck-record Sammy, I appreciate you’re doing the best you can, but it’s just pity laughs you’re getting at this point. For *years*, not understanding basic constitutuional law, you’ve, apprently sincerely, tried to claim in dreary post after post after post that there was some sort of limit to British sovereignty in Northern Ireland. That, in other words, Cameron couldn’t do the things being discussed on, for example, this thread. Now you’ve shifted, sans explanation, to bleating that he shouldn’t do such things. I’ve laughingly pointed this out to you. You’ve, each time, run away. Here’s some free advice: keep running.
The Tories and the UUP /DUP making any attempt to undermine the present uneasy consensus will just further increase mutual distrust no matter how pragmatic sounding their rationale .
Possibly a good point Greenflag, but an uneasy consensus will not last long, and the default stalemate position which is essentially a band-aid over a sucking chest wound is only held together by a massive Westminster subvention.
That can’t last, so the Direct Rule option, with a minor consultancy role for Dublin in some areas is the least worst option.
The Conservative and Unionist Party will have a responsibility to administer fair and balanced rule. Most people in this part of the UK and on the mainland will accept that.
The big fear for Sinn Fein is that the Tories cut ‘benefits’ such as Incapacity benefit and DLA. (Their core electorate). Hopefully George Osborne will dramatically cut these scams. However the idea of not spending all day in the bookies and pub will alienate SF voters dramatically. Getting up before lunchtime or (horrors!)getting a job might prove a bridge too far for republicans. That is not necessarily a bad thing.
There seems to be a widespread belief that CU policy is formed in a vacuum in London.
Nothing could be further from the truth David Cameron has been here twice in the last few months,Owen Paterson the Shadow Secretary of State is here for 2 days almost every week. There are a large number of Shadow ministers visiting here almost on a weekly basis, there are many HQ advisors here regularly. There are well established Conservative and UUP organsisations here with a large paid up memberships which are growing fast.
So policy is not formed in a vaccum in London it is formed on the basis of people who live here, members and non members, suggesting what they want to happen and that information being analysed and fed back to London. Those suggestions that fit with overall policy and some that don’t are then considered for inclusion in overall policy for the EU and Westminister.
So people who want to have an impact on CU policy should contact their local Conservative or UUP representative and they will put any new ideas into the mix with all the other possible suggestions.
The CU relationship is NOT a short term one, it may take several years to be fully effective and for voters to see the benefits of supporting a national organisation interested in real politics, but the will is there, on both sides, to make it work.
SM – I’m glad even my weaker jokes are raising a laugh, or at least, a faint smile. If you turn to p. 150 of Stanford’s ‘Ireland and the Classical Tradition’, you’ll see Sam Johnson, speaking of Goldsmith, epated the likes of me more than 2 centuries ago.
But we note, with whatever amusement we can bring to the subject, that stuck-record Sammy has declined to explain the staggering evolution in his thought, or, at any rate, in his monopost. For almost forty years of struggle, he – if we’re being charitable – misunderstood basic constitutional law and asserted that eg Cameron couldn’t do all the terrible things being being discussed on this thread. Now it v much that he shouldn’t. Curious and boring.
Drift
The big fear for Sinn Fein is that the Tories cut ‘benefits’ such as Incapacity benefit and DLA. (Their core electorate). Hopefully George Osborne will dramatically cut these scams. However the idea of not spending all day in the bookies and pub will alienate SF voters dramatically. Getting up before lunchtime or (horrors!)getting a job might prove a bridge too far for republicans. That is not necessarily a bad thing.
Sorry I’m a bit confused – are you a troll or just a fucking asshole?
FD – the GB Conservative/UUP link-up is a weak and fragile thing, filled with deceit on both sides. Reg, orginally the principal opponent of such a renewed link under the Turtle, doesn’t have a single principled reason for now supporting it, other than having presided over the electoral and more or less literal bankruptcy of the party. CCHQ doesn’t care any more about what the UUP thinks than it did about what the ‘local’ Tories thought. The ‘local’ Tories, before they realised that two legs were indeed better than four, were even more pointed critics of the UUP than the DUP. And worst of all, such is the lack of trsut, London is attempting to dictate to Belfast the three (Westminster) seats it intends to ‘take’ (ie supply a candidate for), and has said that it couldn’t care less about the rest (ie the UUP can supply cannon fodder for them, such as it sees fit). And when we get our coming dreadful result, there’s at least a 50:50 chance Reg will implode and the link will broken again within months. If it is, the dismal thing remains for ‘local’ Tories that even the wretched rump UUP will *still* do better in any polls here than they will.
Kensei
So you don’t see a wee bit of truth in that remark. Incidentally, it was several peole from a nationalist background that stated that to me.
They work for the SSA.
Massive abuse of the benefits system across certain geographical locations and political encouragement to do so. But vested interests don’t like that rock being lifted.
No need to apologise.
Driftwood, I see where you’re coming from, and I think you should be free to say what you have without faux-PC outrage being poured all over you. But surely, upon reflection, you can see that the disproportionate likelihood of someone who falls into either the subset of the community self-defined as ‘nationalist’, or, confessionally, as Catholic, to be benefits recipients isn’t an indictment of them, but of the welfare state itself?
LTU
Labour created the potential for abuse. There is widespread abuse in certain areas across the UK. My point is that 1 particular political party in NI seems to encourage this abuse, and actually advise on seeking to maximise the abuse.
Having worked in a health related role in poor parts of NI of both tribal persuasions I would say benefit fraud is almost an industry. The amount of creativity and energy that goes into getting signed off by the doctor on to these benefits is amazing – if only the lazy sh*ts would put that energy into a real job they’d probably do quite reasonably in life! I do however have the impression that West Belfast is particularly bad for it, but thats not a scientific study it’s just my impression. Likewise I’m sure various parts of England are just as bad. The system needs serious reform to provide for those genuinely unable to work, and kick the rest out to JSA, which will get them looking for work.
Drift
I do not give two figs. Benefit abuse is by nomeans constarined to Nationalism, the North, or the UK. It has been trotted out as a slur by Unionists from year dot.
“Replace “republican” with “black” and try to get a bloody clue. At least you have answered my question. Troll really would have been a better option in this instance.
driftwood ,
‘but an uneasy consensus will not last long’
True but it can go either way i.e to an even more uneasy consensus which would lead to another Assembly suspension or the consensus can strengthen in which case the Assembly will last it’s full term and/or perhaps another few terms . This conjecture is besides the point of whether the Assembly is ‘democratic ‘ and can provide permanent peace etc longer term . My view is that eventually the inherent contradictions within this mandatory system will cause it to fail despite the best efforts of both DUP and SF and others .
As for the ‘benefit fraud industry’ ? Virtually the entire NI economy is a ‘benefit fraud industry’ and all those (70% public expenditure dependent )are able to make a living because of the simple economic fact that NI cannot support itself from it’s own resources except at a much lower standard of living . While reform of the system is probably long overdue you will not promote public peace by forcing people into a job market where there are either no jobs amidst rising unemployment, or wages are so low that people would rather not work .
The other side to this is the ‘benefit fraudsters’ spend their monies locally and many may even work (illegally) on the side tax free thus promoting the ‘real’ economy ? We had a similar situation in the Republic prior to the Celtic Tiger – Taxes and income taxes were so high that a significant section of the economy went ‘black’ and government revenues reduced further .
Northern Ireland is lucky in the sense that it is just a tiny percentage of the UK economy . Now as part of an all island Republic the ‘fraud’ industry you allude to would not be affordable and certainly not in the present situation.
Again, from the point of view of Republicans, I’m hard pressed to see quite how one faults them qua Republicanism for intentionally attempting to rip off the British welfare state. That, however, from a socio-economic viewpoint, nationalists and Catholics, to delineate two different, albeit substantially overlapping groups, are much more likely to be enmeshed in the benefits system is for precisely the same reason their mainland coevals are likewise stuck there (and it’s the bulk of the reason, and not intended fraud, why Catholics and Nationalists are so over-represented in this matter). The modern welfare state is a trap that keeps in place those at the bottom of the economic heap as and when it’s introduced.
“Replace “republican” with “black”
Among the finest MOPEhead phrases in the book.
Driftwood
Among the finest MOPEhead phrases in the book.
No, it is an attempt to penetrate that very, very, very thick skull of yours with a more startling example.
Laughing (Tory) Unionist = David Trimble.
Think about it.
laughing tory unionist
‘The modern welfare state is a trap that keeps in place those at the bottom of the economic heap as and when it’s introduced.
I would’nt laugh at the ‘trap’. After all it keeps you laughing and means that your home, family , business etc will not be burnt to the ground by a starving horde of desperados.
Never ever mistake a pimple for the pox . The Welfare State may be a minor pimple on the body politic and economic but lancing it could bring on a full strength pox . And some of us do understand why and how the Weimar Republic was replaced by the Nazis and why Lenin replaced the Tsar. The body of Wat Tyler may long since have decomposed into dust but his ‘political ‘ spirit remains perhaps not in Kensington Chelsea or Tunbridge Wells but certainly across large tracts of the UK and especially NI. I would’nt hatchet any counts yet though well not until they chicken anyway !
You can try and hatchet as many counts as you can – I’ve always believed that obrigkeitsfromnheit follows herrschaft as readily as eggs follow chickens. Or are both the other way round? Today is too hot.
David Trimble (yes you, masquerading as L(T)U)
How does it make you feel knowing that the vast majority of people living in Britain don’t give a flying fuck what happens to the sovereignty of the 6 counties?
I should know. I live with four Englishmen and they couldn’t give a damn. In fact, two of them believe the island should be unified.
Nobody likes us and we don’t care!!!!!!!!!!!
Ach kensei, sure i was only gaiging. But obviously touched a raw nerve. Defending the poor wee benefit scammers will get you brownie points at your local felons club, but it aint gonna wash with a Cameron administration.
Enjoy your tins of Kestrel later.
Drift
Ach kensei, sure i was only gaiging. But obviously touched a raw nerve. Defending the poor wee benefit scammers will get you brownie points at your local felons club, but it aint gonna wash with a Cameron administration.
Enjoy your tins of Kestrel later.
The only club I belong to is a jujitsu one. I do not drink. See how stereotypes and relaity differ.
I’d not get too many hopes up about Cameron abolishing evrythign that went before, by the by.
Dudfey Tremble – you can ‘share’ your ‘house’ with as many men as you like. This ain’t Dev’s Oireland – thank the Anglican God – we’re all perfectly relaxed about your lifestyle choices. Good for you for opening up about them. Though by ‘opening up’ I obviously don’t want to raise a sore point for you.
laughing tory unionist ‘
‘I’ve always believed that obrigkeitsfromnheit follows herrschaft as readily as eggs follow chickens.’
That’s right . And when it came to noblesse oblige ( the rough equivalent of your obrigkeit frommheit the French Revolutionaries were only too happy to oblige by guillotining the aristocracy first.
So when the Welfare State collapses we’ll be seeing you at the top of the steps beneath the blade eh ? . Try not to look up and for the occasion I’d wear a collarless shirt . The mob likes to see a clean cut
Getting lessons about living in the past from Lord Trimble!! har har har! Oh how we all laughed!
Indeed I have touched a raw nerve given that your homophobia (the result of many’s a repressed gay tendency, no doubt) has manifested itself so rawly when the aforementioned reality is highlighted. Why play the ball when you can play the man? Because you can’t play the ball because the truth is so clear and it hurts you!
Do you think it’s clever to smear somebody as a homosexual in this day and age? And I thought Unionism and Ulster Conservatism had moved on. Tut tut, another dream shattered. What will I do now?
Back to fantasing about O’Neill for you little boy. And don’t worry, your old teachers can’t harm you now that you’re all grown up
P.S. Stop fantasing about a menage a trois with you, me and Dave – I’m just not that way inclined. It’d be best for you to relive the glory days because once Dublin and the Papists call the shots up here, the days of people “like you” are numbered.
Somehow I don’t think you’ll be outbreeding anyone.
Ohhh, touché, my Lord.. your implacable sense of humour strikes again! How we laughed! NOT
Why do you hate gay people so much? I mean after all, your missus looks, talks and walks like a man. Repressed feelings, anyone? Just relax and live and let live. Gay people can do you no harm. If you accept this reality then you may then actually discover your “true” self, if you know what I mean
My Lord, if I was gay I’d be very angry at you right now. Anyways, how’s your menage a trois fantasy going? Let me know if you want a brief description of my fine self just so as to add that added bit of realism…
“If I was gay” – your best line yet.
[i]“If I was gay” – your best line yet. [/i]
Now you’re just hurting my feelings
I’m off to break the bad news to my partner, family and friends.
See you in Maynooth.
P.S. Any time you’d like to answer my original question is good with me – it’s not like you’ve anything to hide, is it?
Laughing Tory:
why do you show such disdain towards gay people? Have you got something to hide that you haven’t come to terms with? Did your son, daughter, brother or sister turn out to be gay? Or is it simply against your religion? What is your secret?
It is more than ironic that, on a thread dedicated to Cameron’s position on human rights in Northern Ireland, we have a fellow Tory attacking gay people – or, at the very least, insinuating that gay people may legitimately be subject to derision.
Greenflag: The Welfare State may be a minor pimple on the body politic and economic but lancing it could bring on a full strength pox .
So, Danegeld then. But wait – was there a revolution when the unemployment benefit system was tightened up in the USA?
I think very few would want to go as far as Driftwood! Still – allowing lifelong unemployment to be a lifestyle option has made life miserable on poorer estates, where people without any responsibilities or commitments own the streets, day and night.
reader ,
‘allowing lifelong unemployment to be a lifestyle option has made life miserable on poorer estates’
You make allowing sound as if other choices were considered or even thought about . Have a detailed look into the economic history of the NI State since it was founded -the pattern of investment etc and the economic advantages which a small area around Belfast enjoyed during the latter 19th and up to the 1970′s approx. Have a good perusal of the numerous reports which detail the pattern of economic deprivation in West Belfast , Shankill etc , .
The issue needs to be addressed but I’m afraid blaming the poor for their ‘poverty’ is very much a Victorian thing even if in a few cases it’s actually true !
‘was there a revolution when the unemployment benefit system was tightened up in the USA?’
There never was a tightening up of the USA unemployment system . The system has remained largely as it was back in the 1930′s sfaik . One of the reasons why the property market downturn in the USA is lasting longer than it should is because of rising unemployment. Because only one third of american workers ‘qualify ‘ for unemployment benefit at any one time . It lasts 6 months and then it’s down to food stamps but first you may have to sell your home, cash in any or all retirement , savings etc . Naomi Klein in one of her recent books made the claim that almost half of the American work force are two or three paychecks away from losing their home or it going into foreclosure – such is the pattern of wealth distribution in that country that has developed over the past 25 /30 years .
It is not a social safety net by any means and is no doubt the reason why 3 million Americans are behind bars and why violent crime and homicide rates are the highest in the developed world and also explains the high cost of private medical insurance . It also helps to explain why many people in the USA feel the need to have guns and rising demand for same . Not it’s not for hunting or fear of government – it’s a fear engendered by the growth of a large section of the population who have become so desperate that they will have nothing to lose by committing crime . At least in prison they will be fed , clothed and receive medical care and attention .
Northern Ireland has a way to go before it catches up on the American ideal . I guess the folks in NI must miss the full prisons and gunmen shooting it out in the street eh ?
Odd the things that people miss eh ? When asked by a fellow Jew at Vienna Airport in 1936 why he was carrying a framed picture of Adolf Hitler with him to Palestine (Israel had not yet been invented ) the elderly Austrian Jew replied that it was to prevent an attack of nostalgia !
Don’t forget now to vote TUV the Nostalgic Party
!
reader ,
Don’t forget now to carry around a good sized framed wall hanging portrait of either Balaclava masked Provo complete with AK 47, or a face scarved UDA man in militaristic pose – your choice .
It may draw unfavourable comment from your neighbours but at least it should help you guard against ‘nostalgia ‘ eh ?
Greenflag: Don’t forget now to carry around a good sized framed wall hanging portrait
I would need to carry both – since both lots have blighted the place. And they do still seem to have a lot of time on their hands. Look at where it got us this week.
Is the gist of your argument that during the GFA, the paramilitaries were bought off by a nod and a wink, offering them an easy life on benefit and DLA? Surely that’s Driftwood’s territory!
Or you may mean it’s just accidental Bread and Circuses, and there isn’t an alternative yet. But I’ll keep looking; Bread and Circuses may have prevented revolution in the old days, but it undermined society and there was still lots of factional violence.
Ugh. I hadn’t realised where this analogy was going. Scary.
reader ,
‘Is the gist of your argument that during the GFA, the paramilitaries were bought off by a nod and a wink,’
It cost more than a nod and a wink. It cost a 108 member Assembly , mandatory power sharing for ever , and bread and circus politics for the have nots , across both communities. It also cost the continuing involvement of British , Irish and American Governments for decades to even reach this amount of ‘normality’.
If there was another alternative I failed to see it, even in better informed hindsight . Politics can be a filthy business . When the real horse trading begins the filth rises to the top on all sides suitably deodorised of course . But we must never forget that the reason this happened is because the previous ‘reigning ‘ filth stopped using deodorant. The stench became so unbearable that even HMG normally inured to political smells wafting across the North Channel was forced to close Stormont down . The fact that it’s successor is not odour free just means the return of ‘politics ‘ for now and hopefully it will not in the future cause a return to ‘gunfire’.
As to what happened this week ? Par for the course . I don’t like to say inevitable but in a society like NI you have to expect that the ‘knuckle grounders ‘ will revert to what they do best on occassion . There may even be an element of nostalgia for them in resurrecting the good old days etc
Perhaps they should be encouraged to carry around large framed pictures of their ‘heroes’ of yore as an alternative nostalgia inducing tool to random murder ?
I won’t be trying to persuade them mind you
?
The only club I belong to is a jujitsu one. I do not drink. See how stereotypes and relaity differ.
We know fine rightly that you’re some 23 year old tech nerd getting your kicks by being a internet republican.
Actually I bet by the time Kensei’s 35 he’ll be in the Conservative party.