“the Good Friday Agreement represents a significant defeat for republicanism.”
As the Belfast Telegraph predicted, one of those other republican paramilitary groups repeated their claim of responsibility for the murder of Denis Donaldson today in Londonderry. And at the same demonstration, attended by a reported 200 people, RTE notes – “Martin Galvin, a former director of the Irish/American Noraid which helped support the IRA’s campaign during the conflict, was present along with Francis Mackey from the 32 County Sovereignty Movement, which supports the Real IRA.” Btw, they weren’t the only paramilitary displays in evidence over the weekend. The Irish Times report adds.
A [32 County Sovereignty Movement] statement said: “We are constantly asked; what is your alternative? The answer depends on who is asking the question. To those who call us traitors (Martin McGuinness) we say; any alternative but yours. “To those who call us anti democratic we say; let us negotiate without preconditions. To those republicans who genuinely seek an alternative we say; let us construct one together. “We must be clear that the Good Friday Agreement represents a significant defeat for republicanism.”
Except that the Good Friday Agreement wasn’t a defeat for republicanism in itself. It was an acknowledgement of a need to reverse out of the cul-de-sac that movement had driven itself into, as well as providing the means to do so.
Even though some Sinn Féin representatives may deny it, their party president has admitted as much.
The problem has been that that reversal has been accompanied by assertions from the same movement that it was, instead, still driving forward along the same road.
And those legacy issues remain.
But then, some people are “not very interested in [poking through the embers of the last 30 years]“..
Poisonous foundations and all that..
Latcheco,
So you equate people trying to speak some Irish with dissidents,
Lies
call WB a ghetto,
Lies
and sympathize with the plight of the planters.
Lies
And you’re not a unionist how again?
Yawn.
Grow up.
Comrade,
“If you don’t tow the line there’ll be civil war” is an old unionist threat to nationalists. It’s the main terrorist threat that has existed since the founding of the state and I am against terrorism and believe in standing up to it and anyway, I don’t believe it. Comrade, its an old Paisley line.
And your armchair in Dublin is less comfortable how? Again you’re resorting to your stock of cliches and stereotypes.
HTB,
I ‘m sure Picador feels humiliated that you had to jump in on his/her behalf. I didn’t think pic was doing that badly.
I believe a Kerryman whose allegiance is to Ireland has much more right to decide what goes on in Ireland than someone whose allegiance is to a foreign country.
latcheco,
Dishonesty and misrepresentation really are your style. A perfect candidate for the so-called “true republican” cause.
Go on. Quit your slabbering and join up. You know you want to. Just don’t expect any sympathy when you get caught.
Picador,
Is that all you’ve got? Na na nana na? lol
The level of the above ‘commentator’ has just been revealed.
They were ‘offered bread but deserved steak’. Even the phrases are stock-Famine schlock, only to be uttered by someone who has never set foot in the North.
A movement that has utterly lost, with followers as brainless as the living dead. Chin up.
Nice try Rob Roy. You haven’t been paying very close attention have you Sherlock?
For your info that was the reply Aldernice got when he visited the Kesh and then ran home in a huff. But it works just as well on all childish namecallers
Nice try Rob Roy. You haven’t been paying very close attention have you Sherlock?
Aldernice?
You mean – Alderdice? Well done. You’re getting better; just put the letters together, try and fit them so they work properly. Not the sharpest knife are we.
Keep arguing about the GFA being some beacon of victorious sentiment for Unionism. Though Bew – you won’t have heard of him, no chance in a million long years, it’s a serious historian’s name – argued ‘the Unionists have won, they just don’t know it yet’, most of them were pretty damn displeased at the time. Doubt you remember that; doubt you’ve ever read a book in your life.
Rob roy,
Aldernice was deliberate. Work it out on the short bus going home.
Bew from Queens? That Bew? Bew the Unionist? Wasn’t he an advisor to Trimble? How’d that work out?
Excellent wikipedia-ing latcheeco – a real swot. Queen’s tick, Unionist tick – yes he was one of those all right! – adviser to Trimble tick. Anything else not from the internet? From a book? Further research required.
Here endeth the lesson. You’ve learned the FAINTEST OUTLINE POSSIBLE via Wikipedia of a serious Northern Irish historian. Now quit trolling, lying, and read up further.
So you had to look up wiki to check what is common knowledge to everybody on here. Everybody is familiar with hs punditry on the T.v and in the tele. I’m sure one or two on here even were taught by him on the left hand side of the quad going towards Agincourt. I didn’t know that was on Wiki but you apparently did. You’re starting to look silly. More fool me for arguing with someone like you.
picador, you from North Belfast ? I’m from Glandore (well, sort of). Although now I’m in Newtownabbey.
“If you don’t tow the line there’ll be civil war” is an old unionist threat to nationalists.
Yes it is. I don’t like the fact that the unionists threaten violence any time they feel that what is important to them may be taken away. Nonetheless, if there is a way to avoid a civil war then those of us who have an interest in maintaining peace are duty-bound to take it. That is the compromise enshrined in the GFA which the Irish people chose to take.
You are quite entitled to believe that this compromise sucks. Thanks for sharing.
(By the way, if it isn’t clear by now, I’m not a unionist. I don’t mind if there’s a united Ireland. I just think there are more important things.)
It’s the main terrorist threat that has existed since the founding of the state and I am against terrorism and believe in standing up to it and anyway, I don’t believe it. Comrade, its an old Paisley line.
The fact that the unionists might be engaging in an illegal or morally wrong act if they attempted to resist reunification is neither here nor there. The fact is that they are prepared to do so, so it makes sense to find a compromise. The compromise has now been accepted and agreed by all. You need to come to terms with that.
The other side of the coin is that it is very clear to everyone that there won’t be any further compromise on the issue of the border. As soon as 50%+1 vote on either side of the border for reunification, there can be no stopping that process. Everyone in Ireland is happy enough with that. Everyone that is, except a few also-rans.
And your armchair in Dublin is less comfortable how? Again you’re resorting to your stock of cliches and stereotypes.
I don’t live in Dublin, I live in Belfast. Well, greater Belfast to be precise. I used to live in Dublin, but only for a short time.
I believe a Kerryman whose allegiance is to Ireland has much more right to decide what goes on in Ireland than someone whose allegiance is to a foreign country.
When you talk about “allegiance to Ireland” what does that mean ? Whatever your allegiance is, it isn’t to the wishes of the Irish people.
What’s all this about Alderdice visiting the Kesh ?
Comrade,
If the Irish people are allowed to vote as one for or against UI and vote against then fair enough. But the GFA wasn’t it and you know it. If you’re so sure they prefer the GFA why were they not allowed to vote on the two options.
My allegiance isn’t to the Queen or Peter the great but thanks for asking.
Your point is that it’s acceptable (you might call that acceptance realpolitik) for unionists to threaten violence (you qualify it with reference to their feelings to make the threat sound ok) over partition but not nationalists because then they’ll be peace wrecking swines of limited intelligence and low moral character who’ll sell us all to hell in a handbasket and nobody’s mortgage will get paid. That’s a unionist perspective. Nationalists are thus held to a separate standard. No other country in the world would put up with it (except maybe Scotland).
latcheco,
Seriously, it’s all very well being brave on the Internet.
Shut up or join up!
Comrade Djugashvili,
GOTWU!
Latcheeco,
Picador is well able to look after himself, I weighed in only because I thought you were being grossly unfair (apologies, BTW, again for delay – those time zones).
“I believe a Kerryman whose allegiance is to Ireland has much more right to decide what goes on in Ireland than someone whose allegiance is to a foreign country.”
I have no wish to be personally offensive but we have seen this debating style for years on Slugger and elsewhere and I am afraid it is a compound of sentimental tripe and circularity.
To a unionist the UK is not a foreign country, it is his country. A unionist is just someone who believes that his particular corner of Ireland is best served, for now, by the British link. Your mission, should you accept it, is to persuade him otherwise. Equally, to which Ireland does our notional Kerryman owe his allegiance? The one that only ever existed as a united polity under the British Crown, or the one we have yet to create by working together a sight harder than heretofore?
Don’t bother with either of those points/questions. Just consider this instead. You seem to be saying that our Kerryman has more right to decide because he agrees with you about mythic Ireland, the unionist less so because he doesn’t.
That is a distinctly odd version of democracy.
The mythic Ireland you speak of is only mythic because of the undemocratic partition of our country.
But what’s done is done.
My allegiance isn’t to the Queen or Peter the great but thanks for asking.
Yes, leechecco, your allegiance is obviously to a 19th-century construct of nationhood and an early 20th-century fascination with physical force.
Thankfully those times have passed as far as the rest of the population is concerned and I just hope that the slow learners catch up soon. The Irish people have spoken, north and south: they chose peace. Get over it.
But what’s done is done.
And Belfast might as well be the moon to your average Kerry person.
Brian,
Yes and yes.
Some of my earlier posts make it clear, I hope, that I too wish that partition had never occurred, or had come about in a different manner, but it did occur and nearly a century ago at that, so, as you imply, we have a different ball game now.
HTB,
Hat’s off, that’s clever:) So by your standard Tyrone, Fermanagh, Armagh and Derry should have been allowed to secede from the pravince if they wanted to then? It’s not a style it’s a point of view. Because you disagree doesn’t make it less valid. Your (and Bono’s) sentimental tripe might be someone else’s patriotism.I’m not yet in the post-nationalist period thanks. I don’t want to be.Seems like Irish nationalists are the only people from whom post-nationalism is being demanded. Your idea that a country can be artifically divided up based on the wishes of a minority within it is just as strange to me as my view of democracy is to you.
Le bustier,
Your allegiance is to a backward semi-monarchic government whose rule in the North is maintained by the threat of violence and through a sectarian carve up of minor positions. What’s your point?
Picador,
So I have to be for the GFA or shut up? Really. That’s all you’ve got left? Isn’t only debating with people who agree with you a bit like talking to yourself?
latcheco,
You don’t debate. You lie, you misrepresent and you slander. Then you repeat yourself again. Endless repetition does not a valid argument make. ‘Is that all you’ve got?’ one might say.
And BTW stop claiming to speak for Irish nationalists because you plainly don’t.
Briefly, get over yourself.
Picador,
Apologies for hurting your wee feelings.All meant in good fun. Remind me where you were slandered and lied to? If I have been repetitive (I don’t believe I have I prefer the word consistent) I’d much prefer that to ‘the GFA is the only show in town so shut up.” Your argument seems to be that if you disagree with the GFA ( or status quo) you’re a knuckle dragger and a spide who loved the troubles and should be shouted down. I think that’s puerile, offensive and a standard tactic often used in the past by unionists.
Le bustier,
Your allegiance is to a backward semi-monarchic government whose rule in the North is maintained by the threat of violence and through a sectarian carve up of minor positions.
leechecco,
I have no such allegiance.
The North is not maintained through threat of violence and I couldn’t give a flyin’-feck if a united Ireland ever comes about. The outcomes of the GFA are far, far from ideal but they did at least represent a fairly honourable get out for both conflicting sides.
You seem to be strongly hinting at some sort of preference for perpetual war? (I’d see a doctor if I were you about such aggressive tendencies and perhaps a quack about the status anxiety)
Seriously, there are much more important things to worry about in life. Maybe when you grow up you will realise this.
Apologies for hurting your wee feelings.All meant in good fun. Remind me where you were slandered and lied to? If I have been repetitive (I don’t believe I have I prefer the word consistent) I’d much prefer that to ‘the GFA is the only show in town so shut up.” Your argument seems to be that if you disagree with the GFA ( or status quo) you’re a knuckle dragger and a spide who loved the troubles and should be shouted down. I think that’s puerile, offensive and a standard tactic often used in the past by unionists.
You have not hurt my feelings, merely irritated me with your blatant dishonesty of which you have just provided another example.
You clearly think accusing people of being a unionist is some kind of trump card.
Grow up. Or troll elsewhere.
Le Bustier
Again a silly point that only grown-ups appreciate the GFA and if you’re against it you’re for violence. I believe the effect of partition is important and worth worrying about. But that’s just me.
Picador,
I think your defences are all essentially unionist. Sorry!
picador
“You clearly think accusing people of being a unionist is some kind of trump card.”
You’d be surprised at how common a tactic that is.. [comment 14]
“Good to see the unionist contingent taking an interest in far off Kerry.”
leechecco,
Good night, and good luck.
Le bustier,
Bonsoir, et bonne chance a vous aussi
Pete,
I am sorry if I misrepresented you as a unionist. It’s just that, I genuinely believed that you were.
And I do believe that by implicitly likening by debating style to latcheco’s you are guilty of seriously misrepresenting me. However I will allow others to be the judge of that.
Latcheco,
According to your logic the vast majority of the Irish people are now unionists. That is how obnoxious your attitude is. As you called me a unionist (again!) I feel able to say – without using slander or misrepresentation – that you, sir, are a fascist.
Another good debate involving Irish language, although the tribal politics stuff is disappointing although sadly expected.
Stalin my comrade, there are many things to be thankful for in Irish-medium schools, although obviously no school is perfect.
Recent DE results both north and south show that Irish schools are doing better in English than English only schools….Do you know why?. Could it be that they value language, bilingualism and multiculturalism!. Now here is a question for people who may have reservations…Should you not send your children to Irish-medium schools to make sure they get the highest standards of English? Thats what research is telling us. Food for thought.
picador
Don’t sweat it. I’ve had much worse on Slugger.
But I’m not likening your debating style to latcehoo’s.
And it wouldn’t matter if I was a unionist.
Your comment then would still be just another, admittedly lesser, example of one of those legacy issues to be faced by those who like to argue that when they say it’s right it is, and when they say it’s wrong then it’s wrong.
Piobaire Breac
“Another good debate involving Irish language..”
Except that’s not the actual topic..
Picador,
It is of course logically arguable that if you’ve consented to the union (albeit under duress) and even in the short term, then you are defacto a unionist. I’m not the first person to suggest this as hurtful and unpopular as it may be. But you went further than that. You offensively tried to caricature nationalist opponents of the GFA in the same way unionists used to caricature republicans (use of imperfect Irish,smug, offensive remarks on WB, internet warriors etc).Then you suddenly came over all sensitive. As PB’s post above shows, you can give but not take. Getting into a debate with you on the nature of fascism would be a whole other thread and you probably have to study for your upcoming exams.
Pete,
What in God’s holy name are you blathering about?
The comment I left on that other thread was very much tongue in cheek. I know what you generally blog about and it’s not rural matters in the territory formerly known as Saorstát Éireann.
And no, I don’t believe that unionists are an inferior ‘breed’ as my earlier comments on the thread should demonstrate.
You offensively tried to caricature nationalist opponents of the GFA in the same way unionists used to caricature republicans (use of imperfect Irish,smug, offensive remarks on WB, internet warriors etc).
Again this is nothing but lies and misrepresentation which can be shown by a re-examination of the thread – not that anyone will be inclined to bother at this stage.
And you are an internet warrior. I stand by that.
latcheco,
You are the biggest victim on the planet. God help you. I feel sorry for you. I am sorry that I persecuted you.
Oíche mhaith
And that famous debating style would of course be “shut up, get off the internet, and join up”
Pete,
Dyslexia, typing error, or slight from moderator?
Slan mucker,
Sleep well, no hard feelings.
You’re good value
Ok, one last bite as the irony is too rich
As PB’s post above shows, you can give but not take.
The hated unionist comes to your aid. Ha, ha.
Can’t stoop much lower than that, eh
Pic,
Strange bedfellows indeed. Who’d have thought it? You must be vindicated then:) I might disagree with Peader bocht but you have to respect the consistency of his politics. He wouldn’t sell his convictions down the river.
Oiche maith
Strange bedfellows indeed…He wouldn’t sell his convictions down the river.
Whoops he just did!
A very cheap intervention.
Sin é
“And that famous debating style would of course be “shut up, get off the internet, and join up” – latcheeco
Plus, the old reliables, “Everybody, ignore his argument because I call him a troll” and “Please shut up because I find your argument to be offensive.”
They are constitutional unionists but cultural nationalists. They have formally renounced their right to self-determination as members of the Irish nation, accepting that right to self-determination that constitutionally applies to them is Northern Irish (a nation wherein sovereignty over its state resides with the UK parliament). They now have a cultural aspiration to reside within an Irish nation-state rather than a right. If, of course, those who would rather remain within the UK continue to exercise their legitimised veto to that effect, then they “will just have to be tolerant of that.” The right to self-determination now resides legitimately with the Northern Irish nation, and those who formerly claimed that the right lay with the Irish nation have now accepted that they have an aspiration and not a right.
Constitutional law is not the relevance that they were led to believe it is – a deception that was required in order to get them to sign up to the legitimacy of British rule. Declaring that you have no right to an Irish nation-state means that you now have to convince others that it is in their best interests to live in one. Aspirations, unlike rights, do not impose any moral obligation on others. They haven’t even made a start on convincing those who are now legitimised as members of the British nation (rather than formerly a tradition within the Irish nation) why it is their best interest to live within an Irish nation-state – probably because those who are British will always rightfully conclude that it is in their best interests to remain within the UK. Instead, their game plan is try to normalise British rule and then try to extend British rule into the south by extending the GFA into it.
Irish unity then becomes, not the attainment of an Irish nation-state for those who are now constitutionally unionist, but rather the dismantlement of the Irish nation-state and its replacement with a replica of Northern Ireland. So, although they have now moved to being constitutional unionists, that is not the limit of where the British state intends to shift them. They are to become cultural unionists in due course.
Typo: “Constitutional law is not the [b]ir[/b]relevance that they were led to believe it is…”
Careful Dave,
Your dangerous. They’ll label you a terrorist apologist and call you an internet warrior if you haven’t drunk the koolaid
Oops! Typo:you’re dangerous
But then again:
“Much madness is divinest sense
To a discerning eye;
Much sense the starkest madness.
‘T is the majority
In this, as all, prevails.
Assent and you are sane;
Demur,–you’re straightway dangerous,
And handled with a chain.”
Vast majority of Irish people now unionist traitors – Dave & latcheeco.
I’ve heard it all now!
Dissident republicans don’t do irony but if they did, they probably wouldn’t be dissident republicans.
Latch, I’d only be dangerous if the people determined anything around here. Anyway, they are constitutional unionists, so that is a fact (unwelcome when subterfuge, self-deception and lies are in style). The misnomer is constitutional nationalist when it is used to mean Irish nationalists in NI. That would depend on whose constitution they are upholding, wouldn’t it? If they are upholding the British constitution, then they are not Irish nationalists. The constitution they are upholding, and operating in accordance with under the Northern Ireland Act 1998, declares that British sovereignty is legitimate, restating the Unionist Veto as it has exercised since partition. It is one thing to operate within a political system under protest, declaring that system to be illegitimate (as nationalist politicians did in NI before signing the GFA), but it is quite a different matter to declare it to be legitimate. So, as the two tribes have both signed up to the same constitution, they’re both constitutional unionists.