The DUP and TUV are fighting over the Maze Shrine. Jim Allister accused the DUP of having done a deal over the Conflict Transformation (Shrine) at the Maze. This was angrily denied by the DUP with Simon Hamilton calling for Allister to make an apology. In reply Allister has repeated the claims and also the fact that he has called on both the current and previous DUP Environment ministers to de-list the Maze and have the remaining buildings demolished.
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Turgon,
This is quite a difficult issue for Jimbo to go to war on as the DUP are claiming it as a one of successes in preventing the stadium and although he still appears to have a point it can be argued both ways.
His other battlegrounds will be police and education which can also be viewed as successes or failures for the DUP depending on your point of view. The detail of the police bill has not been discussed on Slugger (in spite of many promtings by myself) and this could be his main weapon in Lundifying Robbo and Deputy Dodsy.
How much traction do you think Jimbo has with the electorate? What % of the vote do you think he will get.
I’ll be amazed if Jimbo gets any more than 15-20% of the unionist vote. TUV’ers should be careful not to burn all their bridges so that they have somewhere to go after the wipeout!
When Jimbo has to hold Tupperware parties to raise funds for his campaign you know he is struggling.
6countyprod
“I’ll be amazed if Jimbo gets any more than 15-20% of the unionist vote. ”
Surely that would be very good result for him ? I presumed he would be well under 10% ?
Has he got ANY strongholds?
It is amazing that there is an arguement over who wants a museum less. What is wrong with a museum when it presents history in a factual light? Is this not a form of education? It makes me think of the debate on creationism being taught as science. What are politicians trying to paint us as? Are we as a society opposed to forming our opinions based on evidence? Are we affronted by scientific analysis? Thank god it is only nutters, wait a minute,it is our largest party, that’s right.
iwsmwdi,
I was only trying to be magnanimous. Maybe 10% is more realistic, say around 20,000 votes?
‘I was only trying to be magnanimous. Maybe 10% is more realistic, say around 20,000 votes?’
As a first time poster I will put my neck out here and predict that James will poll around the 50,000 mark if not MORE.
Peter Fyfe
Was Bobby Sands a murdering terrorist or an insurgent of principle?
The ‘facts’ are always viewed through the filter of ideology particalalry in Norn Iron.
6CountyProd
I think 20,000 is nearer 5% – and I wonder if he he gets less than 10% if he can carry on. I personally think he comes across very well and although I disagree with him I think he is operating on the basis of principle and have a grudging respect for him.
It was Sammy Mc Nally what done,
Bobby sands was a person from Northern Ireland who
joined the IRA, was jailed for his activities. While in the Maze Prison he took part in the blanket protests and eventually became the first person to refuse food as part of the hungerstrike of 1981. He died as a result. I left quite a lot of detail out but I have shown there is no need for emotional language when presenting history. I understand where you are coming from but I am not happy to be told by the DUP or TUV that I am not smart enough to study facts for myself. Should we stop teaching history in Northern Ireland in case it is presented in the wrong light? I am not calling for a shrine just for a rather important part of history to be preserved for the education of future generations.
If there’s going to be an interpretive centre at the Maze, I want alternative views to be represented. Perhaps a display of prisoner officers riding around on the backs of velociraptors or republicans being marched onto the Ark or something.
Sammy,
Here are the % votes over 6 elections.
DUP UUP Oth U Alliance Others SDLP SF
32% 17% 0% 0% 9% 16% 26%
28% 18% 5% 2% 0% 28% 17%
29% 24% 2% 4% 3% 29% 9%
30% 22% 5% 5% 3% 25% 9%
34% 21% 3% 5% 2% 22% 13%
30% 22% 7% 7% 9% 25%
Unionist mavericks don’t do very well.
Jim is obviously a smart guy, otherwise the DUP would not have given him a second chance to make something of himself.
I can’t get my head around his current position because if he really believes what he is saying now, why in the world was he ever at St Andrews? He obviously agreed in principle with negotiations with SF then, but now wants to give the impression that he would never want to be involved in such a thing.
The UUP had already given so much away that it was amazing how much the DUP salvaged from the mess. Jim could have been part of the seimic changes that have taken place but prefers to harp on from the sidelines.
After the election he will return to the political obscurity he enjoyed before being called upon by the DUP to serve in Europe.
I hope he has a nice retirement.
Dumb Yank, are the ‘political bankrupts’ doing harm to your business prospects? I would have thought you would be doing a roaring trade with the peace agreements and all! You should create a tea cloth or something with a smiling Marty and Ian on the front for all those gullible Irish-Americans. You’d make a fortune.
Peter,
“Bobby sands was a person from Northern Ireland who joined the IRA, was jailed for his activities”
Fair Point
BUT
You, and me, and most nationlaists, may be happy with neutral language but I suspect most Unionists will not – look at the furore over Eames Bradley where a ‘neutral’ body drew up the proposals. The shooting of prison guards during the hunger strike would be one example of where there would be real difficulties – were they ‘murdered’ or ‘killed’.
I was personally in favour of the ‘Bobby bowl’ and still favour an educational/peace centre but perhaps private investment with members of the public invited to buy shares would be the best way forward.
Slightly off topic – but did any Unionists actually go to see Hunger and if so what did they think? Biased republican propaganda?
It was hard not to see the film as a ‘positive’ portrayal of Bobby Sands and republicanism (I had some reservations about the script in places) although I was sympathetic to the hunger strikers to start with.
The level of dissatifaction within the DUP vote at the last Assembly election is quite high it will split off in two directions to the TUV and back to the CU’s.
I would expect in the EU election the TUV to take around 20% of the DUP vote and maybe 10% going back to the CU’s, who will have the national Conservative election machine behind them. This could be a 50-60k reduction in the DUP vote from last time round and could move them from 1st to 2nd or even 3rd in the overall poll.
The DUP are caught in the middle, which flank they decide to defend will have a big bearing on the final vote tallies.
Frustrated Democrat
The odds below are from Paddy Power which suggest your estimate of the TUV vote is not far off but probably a bit on the high side.
I dont think these figures have moved since I looked a few months ago which suggests that there is considerable uncertainty about how this election is unfolding and nobody has has fecked up too much recently or become flavour of the month.
I personally think Jimbo will get less that 20,000 as all the DUP need to say is (as mentioned many times by many here before), that a vote for Jimbo is a vote more to help SF top the poll and also possibly to let the SDLP get the third seat from the SF surplus.
Regarding the Tory/NF vote cant see Unionists moving back from the DUP but turnout in North Down and other alleged Garden-centre-Prod-strongholds should be up from a very low figure last time round IN 2004.
Paddy Power says..
0 – 10,000 7 – 1
10,001 – 20,000 9 – 2
20,001 – 30,000 3 – 1
30,001 – 40,000 9 – 4
40,001 – 50,000 4 – 1
50,001 – 60,000 6 – 1
60,001 or more 4 – 1
Peter Fyfe: What is wrong with a museum when it presents history in a factual light?
Excellent point. The debate tends to get a bit tense, unfortunately. How about a museum in a compromise location? La Mon, for instance.
Reader,
as a fair-minded-Prod-type-about-this-place did you see the film Hunger? did any Prods you know go to see it and in general what did they/you think of it?
‘What is wrong with a museum when it presents history in a factual light?’
Do museums always portray the ‘facts’, or can they be manipulated to reflect one particular perspective of a given situation?
Several years ago I visited the Museum of Slavery at Liverpool’s dockside buildings. I enjoyed the visit so much, especially as it so accurately reflected what we had experienced during 20 years of living in Senegal, Ivory Coast, Ghana and Burkina Faso, that my wife and I went back for another visit in January.
We were horrified to discover that the new curator had dispensed with ‘the facts of slavery’ so clearly exhibited on our previous visit, and had imposed his own overtly politically correct bias and interpretation on the museum. The result was an angry presentation of ‘the fact’ that white people are responsible for all the problems that blacks face. We were disgusted with such a blatantly one-sided display.
That is how a Long Kesh museum would end up.
It was Sammy: did you see the film Hunger?
No. Though don’t read too much into that – I don’t watch a lot of drama even on TV. I doubt many others watched it, for other reasons. I expect many wouldn’t feel like paying to watch something they would expect to be MOPEy at best and most likely propagandist (even if also gritty…)
I am curious why you think watching it might make a difference, though. How could I sift out the fact from the fiction without already knowing a lot about the subject? Nor could it affect the actual arguments for or against political status – which would never depend on how many republicans killed themselves, nor on how much drama and sentiment could be wrapped round the story. And that whole martyrdom business – more likely to appeal to themmuns than ussuns, I might add.
Reader,
“I am curious why you think watching it might make a difference, though.? ”
I dont know whether it would make a difference to you or not what I am curious about is how Prods view the film which portrays Bobby Sands as an articulate person driven by political conviction.
Whether they would view it simply as propaganda or would accept his convistion but view him as I might view a suicide bomber in Britain.
It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it,
I have not seen the film either because I never go to the cinema that much. I used to BK (before kids).
To be honest I have never regarded Bobby Sands as anything other than intelligent and articulate. I think he was driven by a political conviction. I would regard it as a warped and indeed morally wrong political conviction and a political conviction with a large dose of sectarianism but a political conviction none the less. Just as most suicide bombers also have deep convictions or (offending Godwin’s law) Nazis had deep political conviction. Some of the other IRA terrorists and indeed hunger strikers may have had less political understanding.
Kieron:
The detail of the police bill has not been discussed on Slugger (in spite of many promtings by myself)
It is, of course, about far more than a “police bill”. But there is no detail in it to discuss. It is enabling legislation. It doesn’t contain anything concrete about how devolved policing and justice will work here. It doesn’t sound to me like you’ve read it.
The bill which really matters and which will actually define and establish the devolved justice institutions is the one which is supposed to be brought before the NI assembly. That doesn’t exist yet, and I’d say we won’t hear about it until the Euro elections are out of the way.
to red hugh…. msg 6. i ‘m not sure what percentage of unionists will go to the polls to vote positively for tuv, but isn’t the bigger danger for the dup the number of their core voters who sit at home rather than vote dup now. i don’t know what percentage this, combined with those who will vote for sunny jim will impact seriously on the duppers.
at the very least it can split the unionist vote leaving sinn fein as biggest party in brussels. isn’t the fact that robinson is prepared to risk that, an indication of their obsession with finishing allister off for good.?
It was Sammy Mc Nally what done
I am sure you agree with me that history should be studied through the basis of evidence. It is the job of a museum to produce this evidence. It is up to those who visit a museum to decide on their opinion from the evidence produced. This is a basic skill children should learn at school to be able to deduce their own opinion from the evidence presented.
Reader
I see no problem with the location, people should be taught what happened. Though as stated History should involved the study of evidence. I would not like to move a museum that discussed the hungerstrikes away from the site that produces many primary sources from the period. It would probably defeat my arguement completely if I was okay with ignoring primary sources of evidence so that is why I think it should be at the Maze site.
6countryprod
Going by what I have written, do you believe I want a museum to ignore the facts? It is contrary to what I have argued for. So were you able to make up your own mind about each individual visit? It appears you were able to tell the differnce between facts and propaganda from your description of the visit. Would you rather people lived in ignorance and not study the subject through evidence? Who will feed their minds then? Future generations will form opinions on the troubles, let them be evidence based opinions. Let us present the evidence to them and see how they interpret it. I would like to think most people will reject the notion of going back to what they see.
This grandstanding from the TUV and DUP is nothing more than an insult on the intelligence of the people of Northern Ireland. It is funny that a leading barrister is so affronted about the idea of a museum. Does he not recognise the importance of evidence?
Turgon,
re. cinema.
Hunger is available on DVD.
I presume that your contention that Bobby Sands beliefs contained a “large dose of sectarianism” is based on your contention that the PIRA embraced a sectarian ideology and as Bobby Sands was a member, it is reasonable, as you see it, to assume he was sectarian or he would not have joined?
I dont think most historians would agree that the PIRA campaign was a sectarian campaign or was the prime motivation for most individuals but few would try to deny that aspects of the campaign were sectarian.
I know the roll-call of attacks (Le Mon, Enniskillen etc) which were truly shocking but the vast majority of the Provos campaign were not directed at secatrian targets.
Comrade Stalin,
and there I was successfully passing myself off as a Prod called Sammy and you go and use my fenian name – any more of that and I will get my bestest friend Pete Baker on your case as it must surely be in breech of some obscure Slugger rule.
re. Police Bill – if it was not important then why was it recently amended?
All this being said, where is the Maze in 5 years?
Demolished? Still sitting there as it is now? A museum/peace centre?
For what it’s worth, I had a wee visit to the Maze/Long Kesh as they were beginning to rip the place down. Visiting the hospital wing and being able to view the actual location of the death of the hunger strikers gave it a dimension that seeing it anywhere else would not have. Perhaps this is the source of DUP concern. But that concern could go in both directions. If there can’t be some sort of educational effort there, should the walls of (London)Derry be void of historical marker? Being afraid of discourse about the past is one of the problems here, it’s time to do that in a more constructive manner. Honest curation of contentious sites may compel us to work through some of the difficult truths of our history. On with it! Ben
Turgon,
Apologies if I have asked you before but it is of interest to me.
I think I recall you stating that you felt that the fact that an killed RUC man may have been a Protestant may well have been seen as a bonus for Republicans – is this accurate?
You are a religous person and seem to attribute religous motivations to much of the conflict here.
Is this a pretty standard interpretation in the TUV? If so, it would explain alot for me.
I ask as an effort to understand the TUV and due to the fact that of all the Republicans I know most are socialists and athesists or at least agnostic. It is hard to see the religious view.
For someone like myself, who sees religon as just another political ideology, and one which I resolutely oppose, in particular Islam and Christianity, I would still fail to see any religous motivations.
Interested in hearing your views.
Peter,
Your assumption is that ‘museums’ are always objective places. As I tried to indicate in post 19, that is not always the case.
Irish republicans, and for that matter, Palestinians have already proved themselves a lot more adept at propaganda than unionists and Israelis and there is a genuine concern that a museum at the Maze would be hijacked to glorify the republican violence of the past 40 years which resulted in the deaths of 3,600+ people.
It would be adding insult to injury.
GNG
Always remember in NI being and atheist or agnostic doesn’t mean you are not a protestant, catholic or even some other religion.
That may go someway to explaining the problem.
“Always remember in NI being and atheist or agnostic doesn’t mean you are not a protestant, catholic or even some other religion”
I reject that of course, at least from my point of view.
I do notice that unionists sometimes refer to the protestant people, this is what I am interested in.
6countyprod -
One of the challenges in creating museum, or in any other educational effort, is to keep it simple enough so that the material is broadly accessible, but not so simple as to distort the nature of the thing. To make a statement like “glorify the republican violence of the past 40 years which resulted in the deaths of 3,600+ people” is simplification to the point of distortion. C’mon…
Ben
It was the IRA pursuit of ‘war’ that perpetuated the ‘Troubles’. When they stopped, the war stopped. Simple facts, my dear Ben!
They instigated the war, perpetuated the war and, when they realised their folly, terminated the war.
6countyprod,
Your assumption is that ‘museums’ are always objective places. As I tried to indicate in post 19, that is not always the case.
That is not an assumption. I know in some places museums are twisted to suit someones belief. My arguement is to present a musuem full of primary and secondary sources of history through which people can make an analysis of history for themselves. What is wrong with a museum at the maze with evidence presented in a non-inflammatory way? Are you worried about people thinking for themselves?
would be hijacked to glorify the republican violence of the past 40 years which resulted in the deaths of 3,600+ people.
Are you worried people will see through statements like that for the propaganda they are? This beauty has shown me you care nothing for evidence and that may be your main objection to a museum. Or are you just anti-intellectual as it will show you up for the bigot you are?
Why use language as deliberately provocative and pathetically biased as ‘shrine’ (twice) to begin with? Talk about walking with dinosaurs.
[i]They instigated the war, perpetuated the war and, when they realised their folly, terminated the war.[/i]
Yep, it really was as one-sided as that. No psychotic, blood-thirsty militant unionists or members of the British state instigated or perpetuated any of the murder and mayhem – just those pesky Provos.
With such a fantasically deluded account of history and politics being spouted right here on this forum who needs a museum?
Peter Fyfe: I would not like to move a museum that discussed the hungerstrikes away from the site that produces many primary sources from the period. It would probably defeat my arguement completely if I was okay with ignoring primary sources of evidence so that is why I think it should be at the Maze site.
I had assumed you were talking about a troubles museum – for a start, the term normally used while discussing the Maze shrine is ‘Conflict Resolution Centre’. 3000 people died in the troubles – what makes you think that 10 of them should have a museum of their own?
GNG
The ‘protestant people’ are by and large those who are the tribe that reject a UI, they can be protestant, aethesist or agnostic as longer as their background is one of those religions in the protestant family. It would, I assume, not include those against a UI who are not protestants but in NI I am never too sure about labels.
FD,
“The ‘protestant people’ are by and large those who are the tribe that reject a UI, they can be protestant, aethesist or agnostic as longer as their background is one of those religions in the protestant family.”
Let me get this straight, you are saying that one doesnt have to be a protestant to be a protestant?
I think thats a wee bit mental. Sorry!
FD,
“The ‘protestant people’ are by and large those who are the tribe that reject a UI, they can be protestant, aethesist or agnostic as longer as their background is one of those religions in the protestant family.”
Let me get this straight, you are saying that one doesnt have to be a protestant to be a protestant?
I think thats a wee bit mental. Sorry!
FD,
“The ‘protestant people’ are by and large those who are the tribe that reject a UI, they can be protestant, aethesist or agnostic as longer as their background is one of those religions in the protestant family.”
Let me get this straight, you are saying that one doesnt have to be a protestant to be a protestant?
I think thats a wee bit mental. Sorry!
Whoops! Turgon I have made a mess on your thread.
Reader
I don’t think think ten of them should have a museum of their own but the period surrounding the hungerstrikes played a pivotal role in the history of Northern Ireland and the troubles. Probably one of the most important periods and the most deadly. Do you have a problem with me suggesting such prime pieces of primary evidence should be central to a museum? Also, more than ten people died during the Hungerstrikes.
GNG
Well it could construed to be a very wide term, a friend of a protestant might do or someone married to a protestant.
As I said we are a strange people here it could be more about what you think about politics than religion.
Peter Fyfe: but the period surrounding the hungerstrikes played a pivotal role in the history of Northern Ireland and the troubles.
People keep on saying that, but disagree about the new direction after the hunger strikes. SF would have you believe now that the hunger strikers were the predecessors to the GFA negotiators. But back then they would have said their actions legitimised and formalised the violence by specifying a political dimension. Dissident republicans reckon the hunger strikes are still unfinished business and that the strikers have been betrayed by politicians.
And whenever constitutional nationalists give cover now for the hunger strikers, they use the language of defenderism – not republicanism. I think you have said here that you weren’t a SF supporter. So what do the hunger strikes mean to you? And how did they shape the present?
Personally, I think it was just a grim punctuation mark in our history – not a pivot.
Peter,
‘I know in some places museums are twisted to suit someones belief.’
I agree 100%. That is why there should not be a republican place of pilgrimage at the Maze.
‘evidence presented in a non-inflammatory way/care nothing for evidence‘
Evidence for what? You are already making a case for your point of view.
‘are you just anti-intellectual as it will show you up for the bigot you are?‘
Pete, you lost the argument right there! When all else fails, use insults, right?
I was going to tell you to póg mo thóin! But I’ll just say:
May you have the hindsight to know where you’ve been;
the foresight to know where you’re going;
and the insight to know when you’re going too far.
Slán agat!
Turgon,
“To be honest I have never regarded Bobby Sands as anything other than intelligent and articulate”
Remind me why “intelligent” Robert was in The Maze in the first place?
“I would regard it as a warped and indeed morally wrong political conviction and a political conviction with a large dose of sectarianism but a political conviction none the less”
The PIRA OC in The Maze during the Hunger Strikes would know a bit about that.
Not surprisingly, he didn’t go on Hunger Strike.
Maybe the “Conflict Transformation Centre” will tell his story?
[i]Remind me why “intelligent” Robert was in The Maze in the first place?[/i]
As much as you hate the man, I bet it hurts you even more to know that the vast majority of Catholics on the whole island – whether advocates of constitutional nationalisism or militant republicanism – admire the man for his courage, determination and eloquence to this very day.
Most people are trying to move on from the vindictiveness and sniping that belong thoroughly in the past. I know it’s scary, and, in the words of ‘Lord’ Trimble, means that this side of the house will never be cold again, but you should try it.
“As much as you hate the man, I bet it hurts you even more to know that the vast majority of Catholics on the whole island – whether advocates of constitutional nationalisism or militant republicanism – admire the man for his courage, determination and eloquence to this very day”
It doesn’t “hurt” me one bit padraic – and nor do I care where people say their prayers.
“Most people are trying to move on from the vindictiveness and sniping that belong thoroughly in the past. I know it’s scary, and, in the words of ‘Lord’ Trimble, means that this side of the house will never be cold again, but you should try it”
Happy to “move on” padraic.
Moving on does not involve glorifying the actions of members of sectarian death cults.
Can you shed any light on why Robert was in The Maze in the first place, or is that a tad inconvenient when discussing his couragousness?
“They instigated the war, perpetuated the war and, when they realised their folly, terminated the war.”
The first civilians killed were by Gusty Spence and the rest of his loyalist murder gang, as were the first explosions that ripped through the province.
The first soldier (he was home on leave) killed was by an RUC officer.
The first RUC man kiled was by a British soldier in a loyalist-british gunfight after the disarming of the B specials.
These are pretty strange facts considering the sole cause of the “war” was a group of republicans spontaneously deciding to attemp armed insurrection without any good reason.
Bobby was in the maze for possesion of a firearm.
If you had seen your family burned out your home by sectarian mob as state security forces looked on, I would think you too would be radicalized by the experience.