Football violence provides occasion for racist attacks in city
The violence surrounding the Northern Ireland- Poland match has taken on an added dimension with the news that up to a dozen homes (reputedly occupied by ethnic minorities) were targetted in the aftermath of the game. The earlier violence has been partially blamed by the PSNI on ‘Polish Nationals’ intent on causing trouble. As this article prior to the visit of Poland to Dublin for a friendly international last year illustrates, Polish supporters have earned an unenviable reputation for football thuggery in recent years.
However, the rioting by Northern Ireland fans after the game and the attacks on ethnic minorities will require a proper investigation by the PSNI to see if any specific loyalist grouping was involved. There is no doubt that an element of the Poland travelling support were bent on causing trouble- as the rioting in Windsor Park after the side went three-one down- illustrates. But other actions- such as the inflammatory graffiti targeting Celtic and Poland goalkeeper, Artur Boruc, in the days leading up to the match, as well as the attack on the linesman, Tates Avenue rioting and attacks on ethnic minority households, suggests there was a loyalist element which sought to use the occasion of this match to stoke up tensions and create trouble.
Indeed, the incidents were reminiscent of events almost exactly a year ago, when a loyalist element was blamed on using the much anticipated Cliftonville-Linfield Irish Cup semi-final to raise sectarian tensions. Within hours of that match, a mob viciously attacked a number of people in the predominantly catholic Castle Street area, and it was also revealed that prior to the match, the Cliftonville Manager, Eddie Patterson, had been sent a bullet in the post.
Whilst the Sports Minister has sought to blame an element of the Polish fans for the trouble (apparently for possessing an Eirigi flag???) perhaps when the dust settles he- and others- will look at the matter with a more level head.
In any case, the violence should not detract from a result which finally gets the Northern Ireland campaign out of the start blocks. Sixty miles south, the performance of the Republic of Ireland side provided a sober reminder to the optimists that Trapattoni’s team are far from the finished article, and with Italy just ahead, the road to South Africa has just got a little rockier.
No murders.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0228/drimnagh.html
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/polish-hooligans-planned-riot-1690826.html
I hope none of these Polish fans, complete with Eirigi flag,from Dublin and Scotland, were amongst those drinking in Republican bars in Belfast before the mayhem ensued.
Chris,
What time did these attacks in Belfast “hours” after last years Irish Cup semi-final take place?
[i]I hope none of these Polish fans, complete with Eirigi flag,from Dublin and Scotland, were amongst those drinking in Republican bars in Belfast before the mayhem ensued.[/i]
Not very good for ‘amalgamation’ I’ll admit.
“Not very good for ‘amalgamation’ I’ll admit”
What do you mean padraic?
By the way – do you uphold the right of people in a local community to defend themselves (with violence, if neccessary) from violent gangs, or not?
Realist
It looks like Northern Ireland fans wrecking the bar to me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK6im9tI0pM&feature=related
And i would presume that Northern Ireland fans burning Polish scarves is hardly likely to help the situation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jXrEjtVj_I&feature=related
So the truth about Neil Lennon ends this arguement, I don’t see how but there we have it.
Your “truth: that “Maybe it is hard for a Northern Ireland fan to understand when they see no problem with threats against their own players”
If you sincerely believe that, then have the courage of your convictions, remove that “maybe”, and send me that “truth” again on my email address. Get yourself a decent solicitor while you’re at it.
That message above is for Mr Fyfe.
Yes, Frank – I am well aware of the Youtube footage of the incidents in and around Wetherspoons.
You seem to have ommitted to post another video of events inside the bar, which might throw a different “slant” on matters – I wonder why?
Well, actually, I don’t really.
You are one of those who uses the actions of a small minority to demonise the overwhelming majority.
In some perverse way, you use this as a sad comfort blanket to justify your own deep rooted prejudices – these prejudices against Northern Ireland fans are regularly displayed on the pages of this forum.
You delve around Northern Ireland fans websites, cherry picking posts for dramatic effect to support your agenda.
Facts that are inconvenient to your case, are simply ignored.
You have decided, for whatever reason, that Northern Ireland fans = bad lads.
In other words, to support Northern Ireland is some kind of dishonourable thing to do.
Let me tell you straight Frank – I, and thousands of other Northern Ireland fans, am unapologetic about our support for the Northern Ireland team – we are immensely proud of our team, and happy with how things are panning out it this group.
The overwhelming majority of our supporters are fantastic ambassadors for Northern Ireland – as continuely recognised by police forces throughout Europe.
There is no history of Northern Ireland fans being involved in organised hooliganism abroad – compare and contrast with the Poles.
Football hooliganism is a worldwide problem – on this occassion, it visited Belfast in the form of organised Polish fans, intent on gettng a “result” off the pitch, to enhance their reputation as being amongs Europe’s “elite” troublemakers.
I would suggest to you that your need to try and demonise an entire group, on account of the actions of a small minority, is bigotry in it’s most basic form.
Are you deluded enough to honestly believe that this continued demonisation of the Northern Ireland team and it’s supporters will somehow make us go away???
We’re not Frank – get over it!
Realist
No murders.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0228/drimnagh.html
Forgive me, I appear to have missed the even tenuous connection to football there….?
kensei,
Good people, and bad people, exist in all spheres of society.
Polish fans, and Northern Ireland fans, are no exception.
Indeed, bad elements exist within the fan bases of almost every football team.
The continued strategy to demonise Northern Ireland fans, on account of the actions of a small minority, serves no purpose….except to expose the base bigotry of those perpetrating the “campaign” against the Northern Ireland team and it’s supporters.
You have made no secret of your desire to see the demise of the Northern Ireland team. You have not hidden the fact that the reasons for this are politically motivated.
It is the “tenuous” linkage, ie tarring all with one brush, that is doomed to failure.
You are an unapolgetic republican, I am an unapologetic Northern Ireland fan.
If you wish to tenuously link me, and the overwhelming majority of decent Northern Ireland fans who simply want to watch our football team do their very best against other international football teams,be minded that two can play that “tenuous” link game.
Realist
Good people, and bad people, exist in all spheres of society.
Polish fans, and Northern Ireland fans, are no exception.
Indeed, bad elements exist within the fan bases of almost every football team.
Sorry Realist, “bad people are everywhere” will not fly. It is to ignore the relative incidence and to downplay the problem. Which you like to do. Posting a link to murders of Polish people away from football has no bearing here. In a lets-trade-murders fight, NI does not come off particularly well even with the crime problems in Limerick and Dublin.
The continued strategy to demonise Northern Ireland fans, on account of the actions of a small minority, serves no purpose….except to expose the base bigotry of those perpetrating the “campaign” against the Northern Ireland team and it’s supporters.
I find keeping the pressure on people demonstrating bad behaviour is the best way to get them to change it, Realist. I went up to the Bot to watch the Republic that night with a friend. I’d prefer not to run the risk of walking through a riot.
You have made no secret of your desire to see the demise of the Northern Ireland team. You have not hidden the fact that the reasons for this are politically motivated.
Explain to me how what a United Ireland is anything other than politically motivated? Is it possible for it not to be politically motivated? I suppose you could say it’d increase the chancesof the team doing well, which I would agree with but really do you have a point. International sport is inseparable with politics to some degree; otherwise it wouldn’t make sense to talk of the pride of playing for your coutnry, would it?
Do you actually have a point or are you just trying to raise the “keep politics out of sport” straw man?
If you wish to tenuously link me, and the overwhelming majority of decent Northern Ireland fans who simply want to watch our football team do their very best against other international football teams,be minded that two can play that “tenuous” link game.
If Northern Ireland fans are involved in serious clashes with other teams, that is not a tenuous link. That is an actual link. Sorry. If they are serially involved in incidents, then they have an actual problem. Which Northern Ireland obviously did, since you’ve had to spend so much time trying to sort it out. Perhaps you might want to focus on that, rather than trying dubious syllogisms.
kensei,
“I find keeping the pressure on people demonstrating bad behaviour is the best way to get them to change it”
I agree. That’s why Northern Ireland fans will continue to try and bring pressure to bear. Those demonstating bad behaviour, don’t give two hoots what you, and others who seek the demise of the Northern Ireland team, think or do.
“I went up to the Bot to watch the Republic that night with a friend. I’d prefer not to run the risk of walking through a riot”
I’m sure the Northern Ireland fans who went to The Bot to watch the Northern Ireland game were similarly minded.
Perhaps some also recall the loutish “antics” of, so called, Republic Of Ireland fans in the vicinity of said establishment during the WC in Japan.
“Sorry. If they are serially involved in incidents, then they have an actual problem.”
Thing is – they’re not “serially involved”. Compare and contrast with a minority of “supporters” of the visiting country that day.
“Which Northern Ireland obviously did, since you’ve had to spend so much time trying to sort it out”
Sorry – you’ve lost me.
Can you advise me when Northern Ireland fans were last involved in serious disorder of the nature we witnessed Saturday week ago?
“Explain to me how what a United Ireland is anything other than politically motivated? Is it possible for it not to be politically motivated? I suppose you could say it’d increase the chancesof the team doing well, which I would agree with but really do you have a point. International sport is inseparable with politics to some degree; otherwise it wouldn’t make sense to talk of the pride of playing for your coutnry, would it?”
Eh?
Trust me kensei, if your repeateded campaign of demonisation against the Northern Ireland team and it’s supporters is indicative of how you propose to “unite” (sic) Ireland, you’re barking up the wrong tree and doomed to failure.
Maybe that penny will drop with you some day.
Northern Ireland fans have no desire for our team to “unite” with anyone – be that the Republic Of Ireland, or the rrest of the United Kingdom.
Our wee team is doing just fine….no help required.
Tell me this… those professing to be republicans (United Irelanders) have been involved in serious street disorder in recent days – as an unapolgetic republican, are you linked kensei?
Realist
I agree. That’s why Northern Ireland fans will continue to try and bring pressure to bear. Those demonstating bad behaviour, don’t give two hoots what you, and others who seek the demise of the Northern Ireland team, think or do.
Actually last time we demonstrated that you do and it does have an impact. It took 6 pages. I don’t believe it will take long this time: if you don’t why spend so much time on it, Realist?
I’m sure the Northern Ireland fans who went to The Bot to watch the Northern Ireland game were similarly minded.
They seemed to be quite happy to cheer Bulgaria on, though. Quite uncomfortable given the behaviour earlier in the day. A lot of alcohol consumed already by that stage. Would they start trouble? A bit of a worry.
They didn’t. But that’s the impact of a few bad eggs, boss.
Perhaps some also recall the loutish “antics” of, so called, Republic Of Ireland fans in the vicinity of said establishment during the WC in Japan.
I have no recollection of serious rioting. Certainly not whataboutery levels in any case.
Can you advise me when Northern Ireland fans were last involved in serious disorder of the nature we witnessed Saturday week ago?
Don’t follow it that closely. There was trouble on planes somewhere, I think. Certainly acusations of sectarianism. I’m a simple man, I just lump it all in under “bad behaviour”.
Thing is – they’re not “serially involved”. Compare and contrast with a minority of “supporters” of the visiting country that day.
They seem to get an awful lot of bad press, strangely.
Trust me kensei, if your repeateded campaign of demonisation against the Northern Ireland team and it’s supporters is indicative of how you propose to “unite” (sic) Ireland, you’re barking up the wrong tree and doomed to failure.
I have no campaign. I don’t start these threads, I just baulk at some of the more incredulous uses of whataboutery, Realist. Like the one I highlighted.
Tell me this… those professing to be republicans (United Irelanders) have been involved in serious street disorder in recent days – as an unapolgetic republican, are you linked kensei?
Comparison is invalid. I’m not a member of any of the groupings, nor am I a student. You might as well ask as I am a human, do I bear responsilibity for war. You however, are a Northern Ireland fan and member of a supporters club IRC. It’s very unfair, but it only takes a small percentage to build a rep.
kensei,
“Actually last time we demonstrated that you do and it does have an impact. It took 6 pages. I don’t believe it will take long this time”
Honestly, really, true bill etc – the people who engaged in this trouble don’t give two hoots what you think, or do.
“They seemed to be quite happy to cheer Bulgaria on, though”
No shit Sherlock?
So what?
Do you think everyone has to like the Republic Of Ireland football team?
Plenty of Republic Of Ireland supporters were wanting the Poles to beat Northern Ireland.
They want everyone and anyone to beat Northern Ireland. They hate the Northern Ireland team, passionately. Good for the goose?
Yourself included, perhaps?
Was it you enquired about tickets on here for the Poland end?
Just so as you’d feel safer, like.
“They didn’t.”
Enough said.
“I have no recollection of serious rioting.”
Neither do I – merely loutish behaviour by a few unsavoury, pissed up, uber republicans, professing to be Republic Of Ireland “supporters”. You know the type…you get them on both sides.
“Don’t follow it that closely”
Put it another way – have we had Danny Dyer or Ross Kemp over to do programmes about our hooligan “firms” – as both have done in Poland?
Answer = No! Why? = because there is no story.
“There was trouble on planes somewhere”
Yip, 5 pissed up individuals, heading to a Northern Ireland game, decided to make a plane journey a misery for the rest of their fellow passengers – mainly Northern Ireland fans.
I remember that happening with another set of fans quite recently too. Best not go there tho.
Ever been away with Leeds kensei?
“They seem to get an awful lot of bad press, strangely”
Not strange at all. When there is a campaign to see your demise, it is expected that an element of the media will be extremely hostile. Some of it pure lies – ask the Scottish NOTW. Their lies about Northern Ireland fans cost them a few quid.
“Comparison is invalid”
No, it’s not. On the contrary, it is absolutely valid.
Those causing the trouble are republicans. They share the same ultimate objective as you. They support a “United”(sic) Ireland. They also shoot Poles.
Are you guilty by association, or not?
“It’s very unfair, but it only takes a small percentage to build a rep”
You said it.
‘You seem to have ommitted to post another video of events inside the bar, which might throw a different “slant” on matters – I wonder why?’
Realist I can’t find any other video.
The videos all show Northern Ireland supporters smashing up the bar, throwing chairs through windows and firing bottles, glasses and any other objects they can get their hands on.
Perhaps the videos were manufactured by your enemies, who designed a exact replica of Witherspoon’s pub in a secret film set in deepest West Belfast.
“Realist I can’t find any other video”
There’s a surprise “Frank”.
Andytown News miss it too?
No shit Sherlock?
So what?
It’s somewhat impolite in bar half packed with Republic supporters. Why exactly should they automatically be against? I have a soft spot for some other international sides and am mostly neutral.
Do you think everyone has to like the Republic Of Ireland football team?
Why do they have to dislike them? Why do they cheer the opposition in a bar where there are a lot of Republic supporters? Needlessly antagonistic. I certainly would not have been cheering Poland’s goals had I been there.
Plenty of Republic Of Ireland supporters were wanting the Poles to beat Northern Ireland.
Sure. I would equally dislike them to be cheering for the Poles in a mixed bar. I always makes me feel tense.
They want everyone and anyone to beat Northern Ireland. They hate the Northern Ireland team, passionately. Good for the goose?
Yourself included, perhaps?
I was happily ambivalent to NI until they started making an issue of which country Irish citizens play their football for. Until that is finally sorted I am happy to see them get beat.
Was it you enquired about tickets on here for the Poland end?
Nope.
Neither do I – merely loutish behaviour by a few unsavoury, pissed up, uber republicans, professing to be Republic Of Ireland “supporters”. You know the type…you get them on both sides.
So not equivalent to the serious rioting that went on Saturday then? Or the targeting of people’s homes? Thanks, got it.
Put it another way – have we had Danny Dyer or Ross Kemp over to do programmes about our hooligan “firms” – as both have done in Poland?
Answer = No! Why? = because there is no story.
Ah, so no Ross Kemp so its alright then. Gotcha.
I remember that happening with another set of fans quite recently too. Best not go there tho.
I don’t support Sellick, so its meaningless. The difference there would be though — Celtic dn’t have a rep.
Ever been away with Leeds kensei?
Once when I was a young dude at Villa. I can barely recall it. Leeds had a fairly big problem in the 80′s but they largely cleared it up. I would be happy to acknowledge that NI have gone a fair distance. But it would be fairly hard to say they are anywhere near the finishing like when there is this incident or that incident every other game.
Unlike, you know, even England fans recently. Or indeed the Republic. The attempts to deflect and downplay is really what disappoints me the most.
Not strange at all. When there is a campaign to see your demise, it is expected that an element of the media will be extremely hostile. Some of it pure lies – ask the Scottish NOTW. Their lies about Northern Ireland fans cost them a few quid.
Ah. It’s all an evil republican plot. Keep taking the tablets.
No, it’s not. On the contrary, it is absolutely valid.
No, it’s invalid. How long do you want to do this?
Those causing the trouble are republicans. They share the same ultimate objective as you. They support a “United”(sic) Ireland. They also shoot Poles.
I really want a United Ireland so no (sic) required. Is this the new version of your strange use of inverted commas?
In any case the syllogism is so broad and tenuous it remains an insane suggestion. I support universal healthcare; the Labour party supports universal health care; therefore I support every policy of the Labour party. Run similar x 100. Doesn’t work.
I’m not personally accusing anyone of guilt by association. People should judged on their own merits. But groups also form reputations. If people said “there is a group of NI supporters in a bar”, what do they think? Does it make them less likely to go there or apprehensive? All I’m saying.
You said it.
Thankfully there is a clear distinction between 1. mainstream republicans and dissident 2., randomers who have no connection with any political party and SF members. So I don’t have to worry.
kensei,
“It’s somewhat impolite in bar half packed with Republic supporters. Why exactly should they automatically be against?”
Some Northern Ireland suppoerts don’t like the Republic Of ireland team. Some Republic Of Ireland supporters don’t like the Northern Ireland team. Them’s the facts.
“Why do they have to dislike them?”
I guess the same question could be asked of many supporters about their rivals – in many sports.
“I certainly would not have been cheering Poland’s goals had I been there”
Just inwardly perhaps?
“I was happily ambivalent to NI until they started making an issue of which country Irish citizens play their football for. Until that is finally sorted I am happy to see them get beat.”
It is sorted. Want a ticket for the Slovakia game?
“So not equivalent to the serious rioting that went on Saturday then?”
I don’t think there was any maurading supporters of the opposition in the vicinity at the time.
“The difference there would be though—Celtic dn’t have a rep.”
No – of course they don’t.
“but they largely cleared it up”
Leeds? Are their notorious “firms” out of business?
“I would be happy to acknowledge that NI have gone a fair distance”
Gee – thanks!
“Unlike, you know, even England fans recently”
Yeah – angels.
“Or indeed the Republic”
Sure, “bad behaviour” doesn’t exist there.
“No, it’s invalid. How long do you want to do this?”
As long as you like.
“I really want a United Ireland”
I know.
“But groups also form reputations. If people said “there is a group of NI supporters in a bar”, what do they think? Does it make them less likely to go there or apprehensive? All I’m saying”
The Slovenian fans couldn’t wait to get in the bars with Northern Ireland fans last Wednesday night – thoroughly enjoyed themselves too. Great night with them last Tuesday also.
Plenty of photos of same too – “Frank” will maybe post them.
“Thankfully there is a clear distinction between 1. mainstream republicans and dissident 2., randomers who have no connection with any political party and SF members. So I don’t have to worry.”
Indeed – one set does exactly the same what the other set used to do, and still make no apology for.
My offer to you stands kensei – you can be my guest at the next Northern Ireland game. We can have a few pints before the game, mingle with some Slovakian fans, and sit side by side at the game. You can then come on here and report your experiences.
Oh, I forgot – you wouldn’t want to deprive a supporter of a ticket, or….have your prejudiced perceptions shattered.
Ah well!
‘The Slovenian fans couldn’t wait to get in the bars with Northern Ireland fans last Wednesday night – thoroughly enjoyed themselves too. Great night with them last Tuesday also.’
Plenty of photos of same too – “Frank” will maybe post them.
Did the Slovenians enjoy all the sectarian ‘Party tunes’ being played in the NI theme bar on the Lisburn Road before the match?
Perhaps this elusive video footage you mention is being produced as we speak at ‘Uncle Andy Productions’ in Sandy Row.
Is it true that the fans have arranged a ‘who can throw a chair through a plate glass window competition’ for the next home game?
I see you been snooping around that NI Fans site again Frank – you seem to do a lot of that, in your quest for “information”.
Funny that you use threads where disapproving Northern Ireland fans express their opinion to, er, demonise Northern Ireland fans.
Such is your desperation.
If you want to play “website revealations”, I’m your man.
Not much point though, as all it prove is that sectarian bigots exist within the fanbases of several teams – and it is not exclusive to one side of the community.
I believe that people who go blind in one eye when looking at these issues, are bigots.
Rather than give yourself an ulcer in your quest to justify your own base bigotry, would you not be better just relaxing, and educating yourself -with a John O’Kane book?
Realist
Some Northern Ireland suppoerts don’t like the Republic Of ireland team. Some Republic Of Ireland supporters don’t like the Northern Ireland team. Them’s the facts.
Simply stating “thems the facts” doesn’t make it right.
I guess the same question could be asked of many supporters about their rivals – in many sports.
I wasn’t aware we were “rivals”. NI seems largely unconcerned with Scotland ro Wales.
Just inwardly perhaps?
Which is the polite way of doing it.
It is sorted. Want a ticket for the Slovakia game?
No, the IFA are still “looking for clarification”. Despite being told repeatedly. No, I have
No – of course they don’t.
In fairness, the rep they have is fairly clean. Not perfect by any stretch but in terms of supporter trouble it would be highly unfair to lump them with say, Rangers.
Leeds? Are their notorious “firms” out of business?
In common with a lot of Premiership clubs in the 90′s a lot of work was done to eliminate hooliganism. I doubt very much they are out of business, and there has been the odd bit of trouble especially since we got into our current predicament but trouble makers get banned. It’s nothing like the 80s.
Yeah – angels.
Have to be fair. There was a time after every game and at every tournament there was reports of trouble. That has largely stopped.
Sure, “bad behaviour” doesn’t exist there.
Well if it isn’t reported and no one complains, it is sopmewhat hard to develop a rep.
The Slovenian fans couldn’t wait to get in the bars with Northern Ireland fans last Wednesday night – thoroughly enjoyed themselves too. Great night with them last Tuesday also.
Everyone else though…
Indeed – one set does exactly the same what the other set used to do, and still make no apology for.
Just as well they are still not doing it, then. And given I have no connections to any organisation, it still doesn’t concern me.
Oh, I forgot – you wouldn’t want to deprive a supporter of a ticket, or….have your prejudiced perceptions shattered.
Ah well!
I don’t. I’d find it tough to stand for GTSQ and cheer on NI, regardless of how nice the people are and that would be impolite. I also don’t drink, and don’t like being around a shedload of people I do not know on my own. I don’t have “perceptions” to shatter. I doubt much happens inside the ground.
kensei,
“Simply stating “thems the facts” doesn’t make it right”
Down with football (and sporting) rivalries. Do you disagee with my assertion about some mutual disliking amongst Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland fans?
Do you think this sporting rivalry thing is unique to this part of the world?
Did all those Leeds men sing things like “I do love the Villa”?
“I wasn’t aware we were “rivals”. NI seems largely unconcerned with Scotland ro Wales.”
Run that by me again – you’re unaware that two teams on the same island might be rivals?
Wales, Scotland and England are most certainly rivals of Northern Ireland.
I believe many Republic Of Ireland fans would consider England to be one of their main rivals also.
You do understand the concept of sporting rivalry, don’t you??
“No, the IFA are still “looking for clarification”. Despite being told repeatedly”
They can “look for clarification” all they want -you, and I, know the answer will be the same. We’ve debated this aspect before, and are basically in agreement on it.
“Have to be fair. There was a time after every game and at every tournament there was reports of trouble. That has largely stopped.”
You need to do a bit more research.
By the way, there is football related violence in England every weekend….and in numerous other countries throughout Europe. There’s even a bit of a “football factory” wanabee thing going on in the Republic Of Ireland these days. Honest.
“Everyone else though…”
What do you mean by “everyone else”?
“Just as well they are still not doing it, then. And given I have no connections to any organisation, it still doesn’t concern me.”
But you support their ultimate objective?
“I don’t. I’d find it tough to stand for GTSQ and cheer on NI, regardless of how nice the people are and that would be impolite.
Can’t say I found it “tough” standing for the National Anthem of the Irish Republic when I last attended one of their games – I just did it.
Nobody was asking you to cheer Northern Ireland -just to attend a game, and report your findings to Slugger.
“I also don’t drink, and don’t like being around a shedload of people I do not know on my own. I don’t have “perceptions” to shatter. I doubt much happens inside the ground.”
But yet – you go to bars, with a “shedload of people” you don’t know in them to watch football?
Realist
Given all the reports that Windsor is no longer a sectarian bearpit can you explain to me why Boruc was abused unmercifully from the first whistle.What had he done to upset the overwhelming majority of the N.I supporters?
Down with football (and sporting) rivalries. Do you disagee with my assertion about some mutual disliking amongst Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland fans?
Oh sure. Do you believe it is in NI’s best interest, given the politcal makeup here?
Do you think this sporting rivalry thing is unique to this part of the world?
I don’t think this has much to do with sport.
Run that by me again – you’re unaware that two teams on the same island might be rivals?
Yup.
Wales, Scotland and England are most certainly rivals of Northern Ireland.
They don’t seem to get the same ire as we get though. Personally, I have a soft spot for Scotland.
I believe many Republic Of Ireland fans would consider England to be one of their main rivals also.
Rivals? Nah. They are unfortunately too good; “rivals” suggests some sort of equality. I just like seeing them get beat.
You do understand the concept of sporting rivalry, don’t you??
I don’t think it is very sporting in this instance, Realist.
They can “look for clarification” all they want -you, and I, know the answer will be the same. We’ve debated this aspect before, and are basically in agreement on it.
I remain nervous that FIFA as and until FIFA passes a resolution that shuts the IFA up.
By the way, there is football related violence in England every weekend….and in numerous other countries throughout Europe. There’s even a bit of a “football factory” wanabee thing going on in the Republic Of Ireland these days. Honest.
We are talking about the international game. I don’t hold NI fans responsible for the behaviour of Linfield supporters.
But you support their ultimate objective?
I have a sincere hope that an asteroid would land on my house tommorow. I asusme taht si the same with the majority of the populace of the planet. do I have to answerfor all their actions?
Besides, objectives aren’t methods.
Can’t say I found it “tough” standing for the National Anthem of the Irish Republic when I last attended one of their games – I just did it.
Important point here. That’s you. As opposed to you know, me. Perhaps you don’t feel your political allegiances quite so keenly. Which is fair enough, but not entirely relevant. I would not feel happy doing it, which should be enough for you.
But yet – you go to bars, with a “shedload of people” you don’t know in them to watch football?
I went with a friend. We assumed it would be mostly Republic fans but there were a lot of Northern Ireland fans still at that point. If I hadn’t been with my friend, I wouldn’t have been in the bar on my own. I have known said friend for about 16 years, and longer than I have known anyone else I’m still in contact with. You don’t see the distinction from a randomer on the interent, I don’t know, could stab me and has wildly divergent political views?
Looks like the usual crowd won’t let this one die…..don’t youse get bored of having the same argument every time the Northern Ireland football team makes the news……I have to say though it is somewhat bewildering to note Kensei’s bemusement as to why many NI supporters like to see the Republic team get beat when he himself makes no secret of his “well-wishing” to the Windsor crowd…..
What is it about the Northern Ireland football team that so irks Slugger O’Toole’s nationalist contingent more so than virually any other topic? – In fact it appears that most of them spend more time making comment on the IFA team than they ever have on the ROI team they purport to follow…..it certainly does appear to me that many would love nothing more than the NI team to be scrapped….obviously though this will never happen while the NI state exists and no NI supporter will realistically opt for a Rugby style arrangement/fudge so why waste the time and energy?
skullion.
Artur was treated no differently to any other visiting goalkeeeper.
He is now a Northern Irish legend.
He’s “Ulster’s Number 1″
“Frank” (our resident YouTube and Fans Forum specialist) will provide the YouTube footage to prove it.
If your insinuation is that he got special treatment because he is a Celtic player – there was a Celtic player in the victorious Northern Ireland squad.
If your insinuation is that Artur got special treatment on account of his religious beliefs – several players sharing the same religious beliefs as Artur were in the Northern Ireland squad…including the Captain who led us to an excellent victory.
You have to admit though – Artur is a bit of a rocket.
I lap him up.
Realist
You are anything but one
kensei,
“Do you believe it is in NI’s best interest, given the politcal makeup here?”
Do you believe it is in the best interests of “United” (sic) Irelanders to demonise Northern Ireland fans at every little opportunity?
Do you think that furthers your dream of a “United” (sic) Ireland team?
“They don’t seem to get the same ire as we get though.”
Aww – how sad. Pot, kettle, black.
“Rivals? Nah. They are unfortunately too good; “rivals” suggests some sort of equality. I just like seeing them get beat”
You do your favourites a great disservice. Their record against the “saxon foe” is quite impressive. Even little Northern Ireland beat them, last time we played. Ever heard about David & Goliath.
Personally,I just love Northern Ireland being the underdog.
I’d quite fancy the Republic Of Ireland to get one over England at present.
“I don’t think it is very sporting in this instance, Realist”
What do you think it is kensei – interesting comment from a man who confesses that his interest in these matters in primarily political, rather than sporting.
“I remain nervous that FIFA as and until FIFA passes a resolution that shuts the IFA up”
Your ignorance is quite startling. I’d have thought you’d have wanted the FIFA Statutes to remain exactly as they are?
“We are talking about the international game”
England fans were involved in trouble with riot police in Seville, less than 2 months ago.
“do I have to answerfor all their actions?”
Apparantly thousands of decent Northern Ireland fans have to answer for the actions of a few.
Same rules not apply?
“Perhaps you don’t feel your political allegiances quite so keenly”
I’d imagine I’m every bit as patriotic as you are.
Bizarrely, for all your adversions to the people you wish to be “united” (sic) with, it’s you who claims to be a “United” Irelander.
“I would not feel happy doing it, which should be enough for you”
Oh, don’t worry – I get the picture.
“You are anything but one”
Sorry skullion – your caustic wit is lost on me.
What do you mean?
Democratic
I have to say though it is somewhat bewildering to note Kensei’s bemusement as to why many NI supporters like to see the Republic team get beat when he himself makes no secret of his “well-wishing” to the Windsor crowd…..
I am not bemused. Just aware it is nothing to do with football, and not particularly good for an NI team claiming to try to attract nationalist support.
obviously though this will never happen while the NI state exists and no NI supporter will realistically opt for a Rugby style arrangement/fudge so why waste the time and energy?
Realist always takes the bait.
“I am not bemused. Just aware it is nothing to do with football, and not particularly good for an NI team claiming to try to attract nationalist support.”
That’s a double-edged sword for your lot too Kensei – especially for yourself as a Republican…..though you are right – it isn’t really anything to do with football – for your lot too of course…..
For me the holier-than-thou, sneering, anti-unionist, anti-NI views of many of the ROI supporters I have known, who make little secret of the fact that they would have my team dissolved without a second thought tends to skew my well-wishing to Trap’s boys funnily enough!
Nothing religious I hasten to add in case you are labouring under such an assertation…
As for such views amongst the NI fanbase being “unhelpful” in the current political climate – well, quite frankly……
Do you believe it is in the best interests of “United” (sic) Irelanders to demonise Northern Ireland fans at every little opportunity?
Depends. In general? No. If they are doing soemthign bad and it pressures them to change behaviour? Yes.
I’d say you’d have a bigger problem, though — the Republic isn’t risking half its potential support, and a big whack of their potential palyers.
Do you think that furthers your dream of a “United” (sic) Ireland team?
I am not naive enough to believe that a United (no really, no sic required) team will occur before political reunification. So it is largely irrelevant.
Aww – how sad. Pot, kettle, black.
You do your favourites a great disservice. Their record against the “saxon foe” is quite impressive. Even little Northern Ireland beat them, last time we played. Ever heard about David & Goliath.
Still no. Play 1000 games and England will come out comfortably ahead of either Ireland. Obviously, I like them beat by us even better but the pretence we are on the same level smacks a bit of Spurs being a rival to Arsenal. Arsenal don’t care any more. United, Liverpool are their rivals. It is only residual resentment.
I’d quite fancy the Republic Of Ireland to get one over England at present.
Capello is doing a worryingly good job. At home? Possibly. Away? It would be a minor miracle to win, given our record.
What do you think it is kensei – interesting comment from a man who confesses that his interest in these matters in primarily political, rather than sporting.
I never said that. I just said politics cannot be separated from international sport, especially here.
Your ignorance is quite startling. I’d have thought you’d have wanted the FIFA Statutes to remain exactly as they are?
Yes. With the relevant body rubberstamping the interpretation. Which I believe they were schedukled to do?
England fans were involved in trouble with riot police in Seville, less than 2 months ago.
Really, missed that one. Definitely lower profile.
Apparantly thousands of decent Northern Ireland fans have to answer for the actions of a few.
Same rules not apply?
Life’s a bitch.
Bizarrely, for all your adversions to the people you wish to be “united” (sic) with, it’s you who claims to be a “United” Irelander.
I have no aversion to the people, Realist. I am reasonably confident you won’t stab me. But the symbols and supporting something diametrically opposed to my politics is another thing; I don’t see any other position I can take and not be a hypocrite.
Oh, don’t worry – I get the picture.
You don’t though. It takes me a while to get comfortable around new people. Meeting a randomer on the internet I have only argued with for a period of several hours sounds like hell, frankly.
Realist
You are anything but a realist.Not all visiting goalies are abused at Windsor.I’ll give you a couple of examples using your closest rivals Scotland and Wales.I don’t remember Andy Goram getting the Boruc treatment whilst playing for Scotland although the fans did take a dislike to the Scottish capatain Paul mcStay.Nor did the Welsh goalkeeper Paul Jones experience any abuse palying for Wales although the welsh centre forward John Hartson took some unmerciful abuse for some reason.
“Not all visiting goalies are abused at Windsor”
They are in my experience Skullion to be fair especially the last few years – You Fat b@stard is ever the jibe of choice – and Boruc had little defense against such a charge the other week you must admit!
Be more that surprised if Paul Jones didn’t get any vs Wales – Certainly Robbie Savage of wales took flak at the time too before he wrapped it up!
When was the Goram game you are referencing out of interest?
“For me the holier-than-thou, sneering, anti-unionist, anti-NI views of many of the ROI supporters I have known, who make little secret of the fact that they would have my team dissolved without a second thought tends to skew my well-wishing to Trap’s boys funnily enough!”
Nail hit on the head Democratic.
I get torn on the issue though – I know many Republic Of Ireland fans whom I would classify as good friends, and feel good for them when their favourites do well.
In fairness, they acknowledge the hatred that exists amongst a section of the Republic Of Ireland’s fanbase for all things “Northern Ireland”, and are quite embarrassed by it.
“Be more that surprised if Paul Jones didn’t get any vs Wales”
He got plenty.
Democratic
No visiting goalkeeper has experienced the abuse Boruc got the other day.Ffs Mark Robson on commentary referred to him as the ‘notorious’ Polish keeper.Because Boruc has issues with Rangers f.c and their support should mean diddly squat to supporters of Northern Ireland.
Skullion,
When did Goram play against Northern Ireland?
“Because Boruc has issues with Rangers f.c and their support should mean diddly squat to supporters of Northern Ireland.”
That is true Skullion – i’ll give you that – there is a cross over though as you know – just as there is with Celtic/ROI – not being an “Old Firm” type I wouldn’t have them about me personally.
I like to think that those with personal issues with Boruc at Windsor (and yes they existed all right – I won’t lie to you!)did so in their capacity as Rangers supporters rather than NI supporters – this of course would not excuse any sectarian taunts – I myself heard nothing sectarian or religious per se – but it was pretty obvious he got it tougher than usual from the Rangers mob (normally stationed in the Kop)because of his “issues” as you state playing for Celtic in the Old Firm.
However it must be said too that the Windsor support knew Boruc would be easy to wind up and get a rise from – and we all seen where that led -gamesmanship of such kind is not uncommon at Windsor these days either – you are entitled of course to your own views on such practices but there you go.
skullion seems to forget the “issues” some Republic Of Ireland supporters have had with Rangers players playing against them in recent times – including one they thought played for Rangers, but didn’t!
I wonder does he recall the website set up by Republic Of Ireland fans, “Okay2boo”, justifying this sort of behaviour?
Presumably skullion would be rerasonable enough to conclude that if it’s “Okay2boo” Rangers players, then it’s OK to boo Celtic players?
Or – perhaps that’s another one of those (many) things were it only cuts one way?
Realist
Not in the slightest.You will be disappointed to learn that i take merely a passing interest in ROI team and if that’s what some of their supporters are getting up to then its only right that you highlight it and show them up to be be the sectarian little pricks that they are.You too should also be big enough to accept that a large swathe of N.I supporters are their mirror image.
Realist
When did Goram play against N.I?I can’t remember exact dates i don’t have footballing equivalent of Wisden to hand but i’ll do the necessary work and dig it out.If i’m wrong i’ll be man enough to come on here and apologise to you.
Realist
My apologies the goalie in question was Alan Rough but it was a long time ago and he was such a bad keeper i would imagine the fans were too busy laughing to be bothered booing.Don’t know if its relevant but he also had a real dodgy barnet.You know the one where you ask for a Rod Stewart but end up with a Rod Hull.
“My apologies the goalie in question was Alan Rough but it was a long time ago and he was such a bad keeper i would imagine the fans were too busy laughing to be bothered booing.”
LOL – I think that exactly mirrored the progression of the recent Poland game as far as Boruc was concerned too!
Democratic
How very true.
“My apologies the goalie in question was Alan Rough but it was a long time ago and he was such a bad keeper i would imagine the fans were too busy laughing to be bothered booing.Don’t know if its relevant but he also had a real dodgy barnet.You know the one where you ask for a Rod Stewart but end up with a Rod Hull.”
No problem skullion.
I remember Mr Rough well – and his dubious haircut. lol.
Artur’s, rather strange, neck tattoo is also in the dubious category.
Oneill
You seem a bit touchy there, I notice you threaten me with the law. I thought it would be much easier to show me I was wrong by saying how disgusting the treatment of Lenny was. Are the words to hard to say?