The excellent Philosophy Football site have rushed out a celebratory tee shirt to celebrate Ireland’s first Grand Slam in 61 years last Saturday. It has the scores from all the Six Nations games printed across the front, with the national flags of each of the countries we defeated along the way, and in the order of their dispatch. From past experience they sell a quality product, so it deserves to sell like hot cakes. But I imagine the choice of the tricolour to represent the IRFU will hamper sales to yer actual northern rugby head…
NB: I came across this on the Serendipstick site for bloggers who are prepared to write in return for free stuff they like. So it’s a free tee shirt for me! Feel to try it yourself!
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People are so fond of demographics, let the people of Ulster vote on it and see what pops up then.
they just want to sell shirts – they aren’t running for the next council elections….
“There is no agreed flag for the part of Ireland that the NI football team represents. That northeern ireland standard does repreent many people to be sure but a large component of ni population would regard their flag as the tricolour. You would agree that there is no agreed flag for ni. So supporters of ni should feel free to bring along whaever they want.”
Perhaps not everyone agrees with the flag that is generally recognised as the flag of Northern Ireland. Maybe that needs to be addressed. I’d be open to discussions about the flag. But for the moment there is a flag which is used to identify Northern Ireland teams and it is not the same as the flag of the ROI for obvious reasons. Whether a large number of people in NI might regard the ROI flag as their flag it remains the flag of the ROI only. Ergo both the NI and ROI flags bear some relevance to a team which represents both jurisdictions, but the ROI flag bears no relevance to the NI jurisdiction.
“which one section of the community does, by bringing along union jacks, ni govt atandards, ifa flags etc. Its beyond me why nationalist supporters should not bring along tricolours. The tricolour is not just the ROI flag, it predates partition and the formation of the ROI by a long way and is an all Ireland flag of a putative all Ireland republic, as well as being the ROI flag.”
So therefore it’s the flag of the ROI and the flag of the ROI’s irredentist ambitions. Whichever way it’s viewed it still bears no relevance to the current status of this part of Ireland or its football team. Whilst I certainly wouldn’t try to stop them I wouldn’t encourage people to bring a flag to international matches which represents either another territory or a constitutional aspiration which runs contrary to the wishes of the majority in the home association’s territory. I wouldn’t encourage NI supporters to bring an Ulster Independence flag to a match for example.
“You seem to want nationalists at ni gamse but on your terms just like you want them in NI. They have to share your view of irishness as being a regional identity in a greater British identity. Sorry nationalists don’t go along with that.”
I’m not asking nationalists to do anything of the sort. I’m just asking nationalists to be sensitive to constitutional realities. It is possible to have political aspirations without feeling compelled to express them where they have no relevance.
“You expect all Ireland institutions like the IRFU to make compromises, rightly in my view, to cater for one half of the population of the that part of Ireland called Northern Ireland, but no compromises from you guys when it comes to NI soccer team.”
I don’t expect all-Ireland institutions to make compromises. I expect them to reflect the reality that they are functioning over two separate jurisdictions and cannot therefore expect to operate as if that isn’t the case.
“I think all all ireland teams should officially wave an agreed or neutral or both flag, but supporters should be albe to bring along whatever they please.”
I don’t agree. I don’t, for instance, think supporters should be able to bring along an offensive banner of some type. I certainly agree about the neutral flag.
“You seem happy enough with this for IRFU but not for IFA.”
The IFA is not operating on an all-Ireland basis. Personally I carry only neutral emblems at NI matches. That is my choice. I wouldn’t prescribe, but I would encourage others to do likewise.
“Just as the Ireland rugby team represents 2 jursidctions and 32 counties, so does or should the NI team represent 2 communites with equslly valid national aspirations.”
I agree.
“So you should have no problems with triclours at Windsor.”
National aspiration is not the same as existing jurisdiction. Tricolours are not appropriate.
“Or do you just not want nationalists there? Do they have to beoome your version of a Norn Ironer first?”
No I don’t. I expect them to appreciate that the majority in Northern Ireland don’t share their aspiration and to respect that decision.
People are so fond of demographics, let the people of Ulster vote on it and see what pops up then.
Thats a good idea Todd, the 9 Counties should vote on it. But its a forgone conclusion because unionists are a minority in Ulster, I’d imagine only about 35% of the inhabitants of Ulster are unionist
Whatever the symbolism of the orange bit of the tricolour, it is the flag of the ROI only.
Actually, it was the flag of the desired All Ireland Republic long before it was the flag of the Republic of Ireland. It remains a flag of aspiration as well as actualité.
That doesn’t really stack up with a partitionist side regardless, but making it unwelcome seems like a straggeringly bad idea, given the political outlook of large percentage of the epopulace here. A bit of fudge here and there goes a long way.
JEB
and that compromise is exactly…. ????
Ii would have thought that one obvious — potential lost sales in the North versus potential bigger sales everywhere else, including outside the island.
You didn’ think it’d have anything to do with our political spats, did you?
mark dowling ,
‘Greenflag has a good point there. ‘
dub
‘Greenflag hit the nail on the head’
Ah such support for common sense
So here’s a few more nails hopefully enough to coffin this pot headed thread.
1) Money talks-If you can’t sell it or enough of it there’s no point in making it . Those who have produced this ‘memento’ understand that only too well.
2) The Irish Rugby team will not stand for the British National Anthem as their anthem not out of any personal animosity towards Britain or the British or any Unionist players on the team ,but for the sensible reason that that would not benefit the game in Ireland and would bring the game into disrepute among the vast majority of it’s followers.
3)Ireland’s Call which is a compromise still sounds ludicrous to me particularly when sung alongside Amhrain Na Bhfiann . How can such a small island have two anthems ? People want to see a rugby game not to have to listen to any more anthems than are strictly necessary i.e one per team .
4) While I welcome the participation of ‘Unionist’ minded players on the Irish team and the loyalty of NI supporters to the game this particular ‘dog’ is not going to be wagged by the tail .
5) If these people feel sufficiently aggravated then why not form a ‘Unionist ‘ only team .
Sometimes in situations like this there is no perfectly ‘fair’ solution and when economics and profit intervene then you end up with a messy and probably always unsatisfactory ‘compromise’ . Like ice after a freeze -inevitable .
Lots of airbrushed history there GF…
“National aspiration is not the same as existing jurisdiction. Tricolours are not appropriate.”
Would Tricolours be appropriate if members of the NI team held Irish passports? or if supporters born and bred in NI held Irish passports came to cheer their national side on?
In short are you saying its inappropriate for Irish fans (Irish Passports) to support Irish players (Irish Passports)by waving Irish flags at an international game.
You make it sound as if to hold an Irish passport makes you a guest in NI, or that your identity must not be displayed\recognised.
“The Irish Rugby team will not stand for the British National Anthem”
Very funny GF, guess you mean they won’t stand for standing……..
Ckekov,
National aspiration is not the same as existing jurisdiction.
Just as you rightly said that all ireland teams need to recognise that they represent 2 jurisdictions, it is also true that ni teams need to recognise that they represent 2 communites. there’s no point in coming out with the legalisitc jurisdiction is more important than community argument when the whole point about ni’s current set up is that it is a consociational one. i realise that may not be your cup of tea, chekov, but that’s what it is.
has it ever occurred to you that ni’s constitutional link to gb can be respected (whilst there is majority support for it) and yet tricolours be recognised as one of the flags of NI?
why can’t your civic unionism go that far. because, chekov, whether you like it or not, the tricolour IS one of the flags of Ni. just get out a bit and look around. Its not just an roi flag or a symbol of roi irredentism. you seem to be ignoring the indigenous and large nationalist community in the north.
as a nationalist friend of mine from derry, who has always voted sdlp, and basically accepts ni’s place in the uk. but also sees herself as living in Ireland (as you do I take it), said to me once about the tricolour: “its our flag too, you know”.
You are a sophisticated thinker but you just dont seem to get northern nationalists. if unionists really had their senses about them they could in my view quite easily construct a bi national statelet in ni with links to britain and the republic (even with the british link being the stronger) but they wont budge on the symbolism and psychology. result; they lose more and more nationalists from the ni project.
“There is no such team as the “British Lions”.”
Compare and contrast how an all islands team bends backwards to accomodate Irish players’ and supporters’ sensibilities to how an all island team treats British players’ and supporters concerns.
I would be critical of the IRFU in a few areas.
Firstly, to term a game in Belfast as an “away” game is very insulting, I would think particularily to northern nationalists, but potentially to a wide swath of folks from all traditions.
Secondly, playing the Irish national anthem in Dublin is unfair to Irish unionists and should stop.
Thirdly, to fly the Irish flag also puts Irish unionists in a difficult position and should also stop.
A common “anthem” and “emblem” should be developed. When the notherners finally get their act together and build a suitable stadium, games should be held alternately in Dublin and Belfast/North.
Suggestions:
Song – Ireland’s Call.
Flag – Green / Shamrocks
I also disagree with the poster ‘Gav’ who claimed “nordies find obscure website….and complain etc”. I think this attitude ignores a difficulty for northern unionists, if we can make everyone fell very welcome then that can only help the game. It can also serve as a guide for other sporting organisations.
Finally, while the website had some good shirts, they have the worst site navigation possible. I would have no doubt they would see a measurable uptick in conversions by just redesigning the site nav.
Bonar,
This is not the IRFU here but a private company.
IRFU HAS tried to accomodate northern unionists’ concerns by:
Commissioning Ireland’s Call as an anthem that everyone can identiy with. I have never heard a unionist objection to this.
Encouraging waving of IRFU flags by fans (picked up by Chekov in his blog) and only flying Irfu flag and only letting Ireland’s Call be sung at away matches.
Compromise in Dublin: BOTH anthems are sung and as far a I know an Ulster flag is flown next to tricolour. (i stand to be corrected if i am wrong).
Now whilst one anthem such as Ireland’s Call at all times would be preferable, i think it is clear from the foregoing that many steps have been taken.
Unionists like yourself pretending that NONE has been taken are simply showing themselves to be ignorant, blind and deaf, terminally stupid or so arrogant that you actually expect the all ireland team to use british symbols and anthems like the old pre 1922 IFA did.
A common “anthem” and “emblem” should be developed. When the notherners finally get their act together and build a suitable stadium, games should be held alternately in Dublin and Belfast/North.
While with my Belfast hat on, great, the Republic is three times the size and brings in much more revenue and would have a soemwhat legitimate complaint about that.
The main reason that the tricolour is flown in Dublin and A na bf played is the presence of the President. There is also the small matter of the national feelings and customs of 80 percent of irish supporters.
Cannot see why 2 anthems and 2 flags in Dublin not good enough. Neutrality at all times can just be a form of political correctness.
The day tha IFA in Belfast play 2 anthems and fly the tricolour next to the ulster standard is the day hell freezeth over. Not to say it could not happen though.
There’s no reason at all to hold international games in Belfast if they aren’t going to hold them in Connacht or Munster as well.
After all there are four provinces under the IRFU.
Boner,
re.”British Lions”
“Compare and contrast how an all islands team bends backwards to accomodate Irish players’ and supporters’ sensibilities to how an all island team treats British players’ and supporters concerns. ”
The equivalent would be the rugby team would be called Republic of Ireland.
It would be great if iluvni and Bonar could point ut exactly WHAT is unfair with 2 anthems in Dublin and 2 flags, and green irfu flags preponderating in the crowd, and one all ireland anthem and one all ireland flag (irfu one) at away matches. if that is not “bending over backwards” to appease a minoriy in Ireland, Ulster and probably, and very soon anyway, Northern Ireland, itself, I don’t konw what is. And perhaps you could omit mention of ONE night in belfast and concentrate on what actually happens at IRFU matches. Facts rather than rhetoric please.
Chekov,
Interesting that if we follow your logic then northern Ireland is not represented in the Union Jack?
Existing jurisdiction me arse!
dub
the team represents an island not a state. Why therefore keep using state symbols which only represent one portion of the island?
It seems clear that the IRFU has made efforts and continue to do so. The makers of the t-shirt no doubt, factored in the fact that they could make a t suitable for 60% (at most) of the 1.5 million people in NI or all of the remaining 5 million on the island. Simple economics.
NI Unionists number at around a million of the overall population of approximately 6.5 million on the island. Around 15% of the people on the island are Unionist, the remaining 85% love the flag, and the Irish team, so any efforts to make Unionism more comfortable should be applauded as strictly speaking the IRFU could do nothing and the vast majority of people would be happy.
Sometimes I reckon Unionists still have trouble not having vastly more power than befits their numbers. The days where 15% of the people dictate what’s happening to the remainder are long gone. And bitching about the efforts that have already been made, especially given the state of the NI team at Windsor, is a bit rich, and I would suggest unlikely to encourage further, unappreciated efforts.
state symbols which only represent one portion of the island?
So which portion of the island is not represented by the tri colour? Personally I would have thought the tri colour an obvious 32 county symbol, due to the fact that every county in Ireland contains a large number of people who are represented by that flag, ergo, it does not only represent one portion of the island.
Unless of course you’re saying that 45% of people in NI are actually not allowed to choose which flag represents them – the old Unionist argument, i.e. you’re British cause we say so. Obviously ignoring the GFA, and our right to define our own identity.
mick ,
‘Lots of airbrushed history there GF’
I know. The people who buy the memento shirts will mostly only be aware of ‘history’ in respect of the 61 year gap since the last Grand Slam.
‘Fin ,
The Irish Rugby team will not stand for the British National Anthem”
Very funny GF, guess you mean they won’t stand for standing… ‘
And very observant Fin . But I only noticed the double entendre after posting
The ‘other side ‘ won’t take it lying down either
As I said above – it’s all a matter of money & revenue , tail tryng to wag dog , and all over a game
Now imagine if it was about a really serious matter like a ‘border ‘ referendum .
Let’s all just celbrate the win and hope that the next similar win does not take another 61 years as unless life expectancy extends significantly I’ll probably not live to see it
USA
“Firstly, to term a game in Belfast as an “away” game is very insulting, I would think particularily to northern nationalists, but potentially to a wide swath of folks from all traditions.”
The term used by the IRFU actually is ‘outside the Republic of Ireland’ – not away games. That is what happens anyway – AnaB is only played in the Republic of Ireland at rugby matches.
—
“Secondly, playing the Irish national anthem in Dublin is unfair to Irish unionists and should stop.”
Why? It is the anthem of the people who actually built the stadium and that funds the IRFU in Ireland – in fact, if the IRFU pot was to be split in 3, Connacht might get somewhere.
—
“Thirdly, to fly the Irish flag also puts Irish unionists in a difficult position and should also stop.”
Why does it put unionists in a difficult situation? It makes it difficult for everyone else though. If there was an agreed flag/anthem for NI, I’m pretty sure it would be played, flown alongside AnaB & the Tricolour in Dublin & elsewhere.
—
“A common “anthem” and “emblem” should be developed. When the notherners finally get their act together and build a suitable stadium, games should be held alternately in Dublin and Belfast/North.”
You better be thinking of building a 50K seater stadium then to accommodate Ireland rugby fans – and finance the IRFU. Equal billing with Republic would surely dictate NI coming up with equal finances as well! (It costs about 30m per annum to run the IRFU – can NI come up with 15m? -we’re a bit short of cash in down here right now).
Neil
I frankly don’t care what nationality you are, Irish, Martian whatever. But you are doing what passes for your argument a disservice by pretending the flag of the Irish Republic somehow is appropriate to represent an all island team.
the team represents an island not a state. Why therefore keep using state symbols which only represent one portion of the island?
Bonar,
I agree 100 percent with your sentence above. Now as for the second, let’s take this very slowly:
In away matches the Tricolour (i take it that this is the state symbol representing one portion of the island you are referring to) is NEVER flown. A four provinces irfu flag is.
In home matches the Tricolour is flown NEXT to the Ulster Provincial Flag.
Also the supporters are now being succesfully encouraged both at home and away to fly the green IRFU flag.
So i repaeat can you please explain to me in what way this is unfair. Let me summarise it for you just in case you are as stupid (which i very much doubt) as you are pretending to be (your therapist can work that one out). No state symbols and one neutral flag (and anthem) at all away matches and one atate symbol and one Ulster symbol and 2 anthems at home matches. So neutrality and agreed symbol and anthem away and parity of esteem at home. Wow that is just so achingly unfair is it not?
For the reason that it offend Unionists? Yet the same Unionists think it’s perfectly fine to display a flag at NI games which is anathema to the vast majority of nationalists. So much so, that we have the bizarre situation that a huge swathe of the population feels it cannot support the team that purports to represent them.
The Irish flag does represent all of 26 counties and a large number of people in the remaining 6. It’s not good enough for you, but then the Stormont flag does fuck all for me and yet it will be on display at Windsor Park for the forseeable future.
In fact Unionists will complain about the fact that the Irish national anthem will sometimes be played, that some people will carry the flag of their country to watch a match, while at the same time making no effort whatsoever to remove the Stormont flag or God Save the Queen from Windsor.
It’s back to the argument that 15% of the people should dictate to the remainder what is or is not acceptable, (while making fuck all effort themselves to sort out their own problems, IMO the IFA being a much more sectarian mess than the IRFU).
PF are a business. Some people mightn’t like it but the bottom line is (and they know it) is that they’ll sell more shirts with a tricolur than one with a ‘neutral’ symbol.
Maybe it’s similar with Ulster Rugby. I watched the 10 year anniversary progamme about Ulster’s Euro win last night. NI flags everywhere despite the fact that Ulster Rugby represents 9 counties (and nationalists in NI).
Sister phoned last night and despite being as nationalist as me confessed to hoping that Stephen J would miss that last kick…hmm – and anyway any flag without a decent dragon on it ain’t worth bothering about… And Mick – you started this for a T shirt?
Lighten up. In twenty years time when you’ve all been assimilated into the new Ireland, you’ll wonder what all the fuss was about.;)
We shouldn’t use tricolours or AnB for the rugby team. Not because of the Gregory Campbell type bigoted Unionists in Ulster who wouldn’t be happy until we all bent the knee to a Union Jack; but because of the genuine Ulster Protestants who shouldn’t EVER be made feel uncomfortable supporting THEIR team and their home island in a 32 county context.
Waving tricolours for a 32 county team given the history on this island is just plain ignorance – and selfishness. Same as the ignorance of a Unionist waving a Union Jack at a NI football game.
Let’s go back to the old flag.
All Green with a Gold harp and
“erin go bragh”
Bonar,
could you please explain in the light of my last post just what exacty is unfair?
The premiss here seems to be that there IS some lack of fairness. Could somebody else of the many (mostly nationalists) making this point explain to me what is unfair?
A lot of people seem to be seeing things and hearing things which are not actually there!
Dub ,
‘A lot of people seem to be seeing things and hearing things which are not actually there! ‘
True .Some of these sport threads are bit like what the Hungarians used to say about the state of their country when it was under Soviet Rule /Control via the local Hungarian Communist Government .
to quote one famous Hungarian anti communist .
‘My eyes don’t see what I hear and my ears don’t hear what I see ‘
Cherchez l’argent and leave the femmes alone on this one
Republic of Connaught,
I agree, it is selfish not to consider the position of moderate northern unionists who travel to Dublin for rugby games.
With considered action rugby can lead us out of the quagmire. The GAA are not going to do it, and the NI / Windsor Park crowd are certainly not going to do it.
Yes the IRFU do seem to have been making an effort but I think they should go the whole way. Some Nationalists may pay lipservice to the concept of a re-united Ireland, but in that new agreed Ireland comprimises like one flag / anthem etc will have to be made. It is not going to be a case of one side winning over on the other.
Given the interest in rugby amongst Ulster unionists I think rugby is in a unique position to lead the way and provide a non sectarian sporting space that all can enjoy.
Good points made about IRFU having two flags, two songs etc and Windsor never contemplating such a thing, but I still think the IRFU should do more. And do it with fanfare so everyone knows about their non sectarian appeal.
It’s not a case of 15% dictating events, its a case of the 85% making the 15% fell welcome.
“I watched the 10 year anniversary”
Tut! Tut!
Watching the England cricket team play the West Indies a few nights ago, I was struck by the lack of anthems and flags. I have never seen any national or provincial flag officialy flown during an Ireland cricket international either, or anthem. Maybe that’s the way to go.
In golf, Darren Clarke and Rory wotsisname have adopted the NI mantle and flag, and i think Eddie Irvine went with the Union Jack. Wasn’t Barry McGuigan a ‘British’ boxing champion. I doubt any of them give a shit. Most of the England football team certainly don’t.
“Or do you just not want nationalists there? Do they have to beoome your version of a Norn Ironer first?”
No I don’t. I expect them to appreciate that the majority in Northern Ireland don’t share their aspiration and to respect that decision.
Shorthand: nationalist rate and tax payers, know your place.
I always suspected the GAWA’s greatest nightmare, despite all their protestations about inclusivity, would be that nationalists descended on Windsor Park en masse. I further suspect that Chekov is 5ft 6′.
Darren Clarke and Rory wotsisname have adopted the NI mantle and flag, and i think Eddie Irvine went with the Union Jack.
Where do you get this info?
USA,
Yes indeed they could go the full way and not play a na bf in dublin and only fly the irfu flag, but i really dont see what’s wrong with 2 flags and anthems.. i dont see why we should drop everything. Fly ni govt flag and have the band play the billy boys if thats what the unionists want but i think no tricolour and no a na bf in dublin would be a terrible loss.
Driftwood, Irvine went under the union flag because he had a british racing license, but more so because of the number of death threats against his family when the tricolour was accidently flown when he got a podium place, kinda same thought process like previous comments of yours regarding taking out a few well known republicans to us lot our place
Again I believe Barry had a british license, but he did take it a bit too serious, even giving a prematch interview accusing the IRA of stabbing 2 farmers to death AFTER the british army had finally admitted that the murders had been carried out by British soldiers, kinda same thought process ……
feck the begrudgers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?hl=en-GB&v=fbGcE4eQALE&gl=GB
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4VOPk6DrUc&feature=related
Dub
Excellent comment @ 03:47 PM
The Tee-shirt should have the words:-
“Ireland United”
Under a Rugby Ball
USA
Darren and Rory are designated NIR on the PGA website with the official Northern Ireland flag assigned appropriately. Most sporting bodies accept this.
Good to see another local girl do well..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/northern_ireland/7966571.stm
fin – My point was that i doubt Eddie gave a toss about the flag but, like Blair Mayne, most Regent House boys consider themselves ‘british’.
I’ve no idea about the incident you say Barry is referring to. I’m not aware of any ‘murders’ carried out by the army here. Some accidental killings, but no pre-meditated murders.
dub
“and no a na bf in dublin would be a terrible loss. ”
It is ridiculous and embarrassing to expect players from a Unionist tradition to stand for an anthem that many of them may(secretly) despise.
The Irish rugby team is a brilliant success and one of the very few examples where the island works better as a single unit – nothing should be done which undermines that success and unity flying the Irish flag and playing the anthem – clearly does that.
It is ridiculous and embarrassing to expect players from a Unionist tradition to stand for an anthem that many of them may(secretly) despise
substitute nationalist and ireland’s call sammy;)
seriously i don’t see what’s objectionable about 2 anthems and 2 flags in dublin. don’t forget in away matches just one anthem (the coulter ditty) and one flag (irfu).
i agree with your sentiments in general though. i would hate to see the unity of the team go and that is more important than any flag or anthem.
chris donnelly,
Thanks… i thought i was saying something a bit controversial there but thought i was safe cos i was talking to a unionist;)
seriously i was kind of letting out the bag something i have often thought but not said aloud…
perhsps we are fortunate that unionists in general are so obdurate;)
dub,
“seriously i don’t see what’s objectionable about 2 anthems and 2 flags in dublin. don’t forget in away matches just one anthem (the coulter ditty) and one flag (irfu). ”
I think you would see whats “objectionable” if they had played GSTQ at Ravenhill and flown the union jack. Personally, I would seriously struggle with that.