Apparently Bertie arrived with his old mate Paddy the Plasterer… The Irish Tenors took seven minutes to sing the town I loved so well. And here’s the Lambegs at Croke Park… Maybe that’s what freaked Mr O’Gara?
Too good to miss… Your captions please..?
I’ve been catching up on some reading, recently. Most pleasantly surprised by John Drennan’s latest opus from Gill and Macmillan, Cute Hoors and Pious Protestors… It’s early days yet, but I was struck by this paragraph, part of a dissection of Fianna Fail near the beginning: One of the more fatal consequences of our colonial [...] read our review »
Colin Neill’s first novel Turas peeks into a world in which many Ulster Protestants feel uncomfortable. It’s 2020 and the Irish unification that unionists and loyalists confidently predicted would never happen has become a reality. President Adams is ensconced in Phoenix Park. The newsreader reported that … a short ceremony at Stormont had confirmed the [...] read our review »
Extract from Greg McLaughlin and Stephen Baker: The Propaganda of Peace: The Role of Media and Culture in the Northern Ireland Peace Process. Bristol: Intellect Books. 2010. Political opponents Ian Paisley and Martin McGuiness were confirmed as First Minister and Deputy First Minister of a new executive in May 2007, closing yet another chapter in [...] read our review »
surprised at you Mick. why shouldn’t one of the Dublin papers adopt an all-Ireland tone and adopt a soft-nationalist stance?
it might not be commercially demanded but a newspaper or propriator could take a view that such an approach was for the good of the Irish people (ie, how the guardian is run by a charitable trust and adopts a liberal stance despite it not being the most commercially successful approach)
“could take a view that such an approach was for the good of the Irish people”
Aaron:
I suppose it could be a kind of Paddy Pravda?
“I suppose it could be a kind of Paddy Pravda? ”
well, no. it would be an independent, largely commercially-focused product. again, ie, like the guardian. for all it’s faults, would you call it liberal pravda?
I think this topic is drifting off topic a bit but I tend to agree with a lot of what commentators are saying here about the SINDO or as I see it AOR’s propaganda machine. I remember reading a fair few SIndo articles about how the recession wasn’t happening about a year ago. I distinctly remember one front page article written in an incredibly unbalanced way basically saying ‘what recession, I don’t see any recession, anyone that talks about there being a recession doesn’t know what they’re on about’. A year later we’re now up shit creak without a paddle and the Sindo starts printing stories about the recession. Still you got to admire the Sindo for all those “silly little women’s stories” with the accompanying pictures of the “lovely girls” in question who are ‘beating the recession’ with their lovely dresses or fashion accessories. As you can probably tell from now Im not a massive fan of the SIndo
Perhaps they’ll arrange to quietly and appropriately address the anthem farce next….and everyone can feel comfortable that the IRFU team represents all traditions on the island.
Oneill and Iluvni
Oh the rich irony of Windsor Rockers adopting such a line……
Aaron,
Have youy got any particular benefactor in mind as they appear to be thin on the ground here?
It would take a very special one to allow a paper to remain independent, particularly when they are often bought so as to cross-fertilise with their other media organs or to sell stuff (Mr Murdoch comes to mind).
I’m cynical about all the papers but read most of them, and also like to read the likes of Private Eye and, of course, Slugger, so as to find out what the papers might not be telling me.
I wish England would address their continued use of God Save the Queen, in rugby and football.
Chris D.
“Perhaps they’ll arrange to quietly and appropriately address the anthem farce next….and everyone can feel comfortable that the IRFU team represents all traditions on the island. ”
“Oneill and Iluvni”
“Oh the rich irony of Windsor Rockers adopting such a line……”
As you well know the posters you mention and myself have all expressed the anthem situation to be addressed at Windsor. I think we all said we perferred an anthem that was unique to NI.
However Chris, Northern Ireland is part of the UK, the Ireland Rugby team is made up of a republic and one part of the UK. It is not unreasonable to have both constituencies recognised in the anthem, or play none at all. What´s worse is when the team plays the one match in over 50 years in Belfast, the IRFU deem it an away match to avoid playing any anthem.
No irony at all Chris, just double standards, and as you are never likely to support NI you really do not have a point.
Objectivist,
That was a great article and I could not have summed up my own feelings better. It is a total conundrum for many of us here in the North; why the Southern media have taken such a venemous anti-Nationalist stance. I have my own thoughts about it. I firmly believe that many in the South are so frightened and wary of Unionism that they will do anything and everything to placate it. The thought of Loyalist terrorists ever again planting bombs in Dublin has driven the mindset of the Southern media and they have fawned over Unionism since the 1974 bombings, in effect Unionist terrorism has won there. Many in the South now blame Northern Catholics for their own predicament and want no part of their demands for Civil Rights and equality. Everything is written or said with Unionism in mind and anything offensive or factual is binned. I despise the Southern media with a passion for the self serving spineless cowards that they are. They have closed their eyes to the North and have given Britain carte blanche to do what it wants. You will NEVER see or hear demands in the Southern press for investigations into Britain’s shoot to kill policies nor much criticism of Unionism’s apartheid rule in many local councils. I look forward to the day O’Reilly’s empire comes crashing down around him and while I have sympathy for the Waterford Crystal workers hopefully it’s only a start.
aaron s,
I’m not against it, it’s just that I am not sure the expectation/sense of entitlement expressed is entirely realistic or perhaps even reasonable.
The person who summed up southern attitudes to us Nordies best was Malachi O’Doherty: we are the mad alcoholic old uncle in the attic that they don’t like to talk about.
That cuts across our internal divides. But perhaps nationalists are most cut up about it because they feel their brash young nephews in the south shouldn’t treat members of their own family so unkindly.
Maybe we should try giving up the bottle; and then recognise that whilst we may not deserve all of that bad reputation, some of us have been behaving pretty badly indeed?
Then get on with mending a few broken bridges…
Dr Who
…and as you know, the north of Ireland is a contested political entity, with two ‘national’ communities which has given rise to an internationally recognised political agreement and consociational political arrangements including all-Ireland structures.
There is no flag for the north nor any anthem, and there really doesn’t seem to be any interest in developing one at a political or sporting level.
Of course, the Northern Ireland soccer team can take such an initiative if it wants, and I suspect were they to genuinely seek to make the team representative of both ‘national’ communities then they’d be pleasantly surprised by the reaction of many nationalists, but I doubt they’d be willing to take the necessary steps.
After all, these are the same people that were responsible for the attempt to enforce an ‘Ulster is British’ ruling with FIFA regarding player eligibility which failed and blew up in their face.
The IRFU’s ‘solution’ seems to have few detractors beyond these webpages and a few politicians, which I suspect is the real source of angst for some.
Unlike the IFA, neither the rugby authorities at a National level nor local teams nor spectators have been guilty of behaving in a sectarian manner and therefore burning whatever bridges they’d built throughout the years. Rugby remains an all-Ireland sport and, in the absence of any alternative option for some politically-motivated detractors in the north, that’s just something that’ll have to be lumped I’m afraid.
until 2005 the English Rugby Union team used “Land of Hope and Glory”, the English Cricket Team use Jerusalem, in a 2006 BBC poll 55% of people wanted “land of Hope and Glory” as the English national anthem (I remember the poll, on a radio show someone suggested the theme music to Dr Who, because it would sound great at Football games). Wales have “Mae Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau” as theirs and Scottish Rugby and soccer use “Flower of Scotland.
It’s hard to fathom why unionists cling to God Save the Queen, when its so unpopular in the reat of the UK, but heyho.
It is likely that in the next few years each part of the UK will adopt their own anthems, no idea what anthem NI would chose, but it would be interesting if the South than adopted the same one.
Care to re-read that again? Why would a paper in the south seek to reflect the views of people in the north?
The north, of necessity, warrants significant and multiple analyses by the ROI media. This being the case all major viewpoints should be represented.
Chris D.
“After all, these are the same people that were responsible for the attempt to enforce an ‘Ulster is British’ ruling with FIFA regarding player eligibility which failed and blew up in their face.”
No Chris you are not having that one, you are an inteligent bloke but please this just makes you look just like another daft little republican bigot.
The IFA are rightfully concerned that they will nurture a few gems only for the South to poach them. It has nothing to do with forcing nationality on anyone. How in fucks name can the IFA enforce nationality. Jesus fucking wept. Pat Jennings played 119 times for Northern Ireland, yes Northern Ireland, im sure he didn´t feel any less Irish. I have been to over 150 internationals involving Northern Ireland and I don´t feel any less Irish.
I wear my green shirt with the celtic cross and I cheer on players from both communities, if they where all Catholic I really couldnt care.
Now the FIFA ruling seems ambiguous, however I feel it favours the ROI because of passports, they´re is no such thing as a Northern Ireland passport hence……………well we´ve been down this argument too many times.
In relation to flags and anthems for Northern Ireland you are of course wrong and knowingly so. In the Commonwealth games NI is represented by the govt. of NI standard and in the event of an athlete winning a gold medal Danny Boy is played. There is no willingness amongst nationalist politicians to agree on a neutral flag or anthem for NI because that would be adding to it´s internationally recognised legitamacy.
You talk of irony yet your beloved Provisional Sinn Fein would rather seek shade under the Union flag than agree one with their fellow Northern Ireland compatriots. Now that is ironic.
That was a great article and I could not have summed up my own feelings better. It is a total conundrum for many of us here in the North; why the Southern media have taken such a venemous anti-Nationalist stance. I have my own thoughts about it. I firmly believe that many in the South are so frightened and wary of Unionism that they will do anything and everything to placate it. The thought of Loyalist terrorists ever again planting bombs in Dublin has driven the mindset of the Southern media
This has been a hobby horse of mine for years and there is not much I can do apart from refraining from buyiing the rags.I wouldn’t agree with your ‘loyalist terrorist theory’. As to what the actual reason is – I can only speculate. The Daily Mail is English-owned so it can be excused up to a point. I would guess that the Sindo/Indo school print what Sir Anto wants to read; when he lets go there could be some interesting changes.
The IT and Examiner are sort of dilutedly sindoesque and employ unionist ex-politicos (David Adams, Frank Millar, and Steven King) as regular correspondents *without* a counterbalance.
Don’t get me started on Ruth Dudley Edwards!
It has reached the stage where I have to frequent blogs like this one to hear NI nationalist perspectives.
This may make your jaw drop but I am beginning to speculate that the southern 4th estate/political establishment see what is coming down the line in 20 years or so and want to prophylactically defuse unionist hostility/paranoia.
The person who summed up southern attitudes to us Nordies best was Malachi O’Doherty: we are the mad alcoholic old uncle in the attic that they don’t like to talk about.
That cuts across our internal divides. But perhaps nationalists are most cut up about it because they feel their brash young nephews in the south shouldn’t treat members of their own family so unkindly.
Mick, that’s a load of rubbish; this tends to be spun by pundits with hidden agendae trying to drive a wedge between north and south. As a southerner I actually resent being told what *I* think about ‘nordies’ (sic).
Chris Donnelly,
The IRFU have been guilty of behaving in an inexcusably offensive manner. Through a, I suppose, typical Nationalist intolerance of anything British, they’ve crassly alienated a section of long-time supporter opinion which expected fair play on the anthem issue if a game returned to Belfast.
After that double-cross, and the refusal to adopt Ireland’s Call as the sole anthem in Dublin, the IRFU clearly are not interested in representing all opinion on the island on an equal basis. That sits comfortably of course with the vast majority in the Republic and a sizeable minority (maybe even a majority) up here.
Funny how though that those who’d call for an ‘Ireland of Equals’ arent to keen to stand up and be counted on this issue, but are happy to go along with the IRFU, presumably preferring to see a section of Unionist opinion being shown which political outlook takes precedence. It gave a lie to the oft-repeated line about rugby being above politics. It was above politics so long as the IRFU administrators werent put to the test.
When tested, they nailed their politics firmly to the mast.
Rugby remains an all-Ireland sport and, in the absence of any alternative option for some politically-motivated detractors in the north, that’s just something that’ll have to be lumped I’m afraid.
Chris Donnelly,
I suspect that my previous comment didn’t register:
Ireland is one island, there is one Irish rugby team on that island, a team which I believe should represent everyone that lives on the island. Now, does that statement make me a “politically-motivated detractor” or a true united Irelander?
A real united Irelander wouldn’t be too bothered about emblems and anthems, if it meant getting Irish people like me Iluvni, Dr Who fully behind an all-Ireland team but it’s something which I’ve noticed with your, let’s be kind and call it doctrinaire wing of Irish Republicanism in Northern Ireland is that there is a strong partitionist streak. You play lipservice to the ideals of Wolfe Tone and the United Irishmen, whilst in reality you’re more than happy that we all remain in our own little cultural, social, political and sporting ghettos- makes your and your party’s job much easier come election time I suppose.
And with reference to the anthem played for NI games, guess what? My opinion has been changed by those from within the GAWA whose stance on FFA and sectarianism in sport I genuinely respect. And the reason I respect that stance is that for them sectarianism isn’t a selective cudgel to bash over themmuns’ head at every opportunity, but an evil that must be eradicated from not only sport but society at large.
iluvni,
You really do protest too much. For years and years and years there were tricolours galore in Dublin and only one anthem played. Now there are 2 anthems, they went to the bother of getting an irfu song for the whole island, there are now more green flags than triclours and now there are even lambegs as well… it was when the irfu started changing its practises that you guys complained. that simply does not make sense. Expecting gstq to be played in Belfast was simply absurd. In ni gstq is extremely divisive and can not be said in any way whatvever to represent more than about 45 percent of the populatin absolute max. This is not true of a na bf. i sgreee that the ideal soluton would be just to have ireland’s call at all matches home and away (and no i dont regard belfast as away). But a na bf has great history and resonance. unlike your johnny come lately absurdly over the top critism of the irfu i recognise the huge changes the ifa have made and welcome them all without reservation and do not feel the need to demand more. any change they make you see is up to them. these things happen organically. when a large element in the unionist population feels more at home with an indigenous anthem like say danny boy then change will occur. to demand it is just asinime. England fans now wave the george’s cross, they used to wave the union jack. this happened gradually and then in the end quite suddenly over a 20 year period, reflecting tectonic shifts within the uk and england itself. same goes for changes in ireland. moral of the story; welcome changes that you like and stop demanding change. or stop being so fucking negative would be another way of putting it.
oneill,
absolutely agreed. But you are not a real united irelander yourself, you are a unionist. so why tell others of a diffferent political persuasion to yourself what to do? why not tidy up your own patch first?
the irfu has made real compromises in relation to anthems and emblems. They have been of the adding on to existing symbols and anthems variety rather than inventing new ones.
yet after years of saying nothing unionists like you are now hyper critical of the irfu. i am not going to criticise the ifa, they too have made huge changes and i just welcome them, because you see to me they were always an irish team and if they themselves are happy in showing that more clearly more power to them. isee no reason to criticise them. i am an irish nationalist and republican and they are a 100 percent irish team, why should i have a problem with them? you on the other hand and your confreres here are a unionist and as such hostile to an independent all ireland state and all aspirations to such. yet you seek to criticise genuine and organic all ireland instituions like the irfu because they do not play gstq in belfast and because, despite all their compromises, they are not unionist enough for you. they are never going to be unionist. their all irishness is genuine and as you say, real united irelanders should not get hung up about symbols and anthems any way. you are the one with the hang ups. what imo you hate is that the irfu has not extirpated all traces of symbolic irish nationalism. why dont you just come out and say it? if you yourself were a genuine united irelander your incessant criticism might be taken a tad more seriously. you are not of course and are an ardent fan of a foreign govt ruling and dividing irish people. you are just a trouble maker.
‘stop being so fucking negative’
I’ve waited for a long time to type this but really you want those like me to ‘sit at the back of the bus’, dont you?
Perhaps, dub, you simply dont appreciate the decency and tolerance shown by many of those from NI who attended Ireland games over 50 years at Lansdowne. Of course there were tricolurs and one anthem … and many of my opinion went along with that because we always knew of the long-standing convention of playing the anthem of the host nation.
That, when it came to the bit, bigotted opinion within IRFU, the fanbase and rumour has it, the playing staff, couldnt stomach the idea of honouring that in Belfast.
Its as simple as that.
Now, as for gstq, its not my cup of tea either. I havent sang it at a NI game for as long as I can remember simply due to it being abused by a section of the support. I’d have Danny Boy tomorrow. Thats not the opinion of all, granted.
I would have quite happily settled for an announcement that Danny Boy would have been used at Ravenhill, or the opportunity taken to announce Irelands Call as the sole anthem from now on in, home or ‘away’.
It wasnt taken by the IRFU.
They chose their crass choice, they chose not to make amends (a couple of lambegs doesnt impress me) and they can rest easy that those who support the idea of a united Ireland wont kick up a stink because they actually quite like the fact that they’ve got one over on them’uns.
“Can’t the republican community not celebrate their culture without deliberately rubbing our (Unionist) noses in it? Why do they have to celebrate dead terrorists ? ”
They have a staute of Edward Carson in front of the building?
The Ulster branch were behind only Ireland’s Call being used at Ravenhill because that is what they wanted.
dub
if you yourself were a genuine united irelander your incessant criticism might be taken a tad more seriously. you are not of course and are an ardent fan of a foreign govt ruling and dividing irish people. you are just a trouble maker.
Would it make easier for you and the IRFU if I stopped pretending that I’m as Irish as you and they are? Then we could all retr
Will the pair of boys from Bessbrook be invited next time Armagh are playing in Croker? Will they come?
Iluvni,
“The IRFU have been guilty of behaving in an inexcusably offensive manner. Through a, I suppose, typical Nationalist intolerance of anything British, they’ve crassly alienated a section of long-time supporter opinion which expected fair play on the anthem issue if a game returned to Belfast.
The old “I believe it so it must be true” argument we hear so often on Slugger, especially regarding sport.
The IRFU’s “inexcusably offensive” attitude has really been hitting attendances alright and a lot of Ulster rugby clubs and schools have been sending back their ticket allocations in disgust.
Oh, wait a minute, they haven’t. I’m sure you believe what you say but the facts state the opposite?
Magners League is well supported and the numbers playing rugby in Ulster increased by 25% from 27,911 in 2007 to 34,950 in 2008.
The reality on the ground rather than in your head is that the people of Ulster are so alienated by the IRFU’s stance that there has been a 25% percent increase in playing numbers in the last year alone.
It’s a quare type of alienation that leads to increased attendances and a 25% jump in participation.
I’ll leave you wallow in your self-perceived alienation while I look forward to what seems to be a good young crop of Ulster players coming up this season.
Obj,
Don’t be daft. Who said ALL southerners felt that way? I would hope the 8 per cent who say they’ll vote Sinn Fein DON’T THINK LIKE THAT. And good few more who vote for all the other parties.
But generally, in my experience, Malachi is right about the way the Northern Ireland is generally viewed in the south. That’s not simply a media view. I grew up with relatives on both sides of the border as well as both sides of the Irish Sea. Both external sets thought our political situation pure mad! As indeed it was.
When you meet that attitude as a northerner it may be frustrating, but it is a fact of life that throughout the Troubles the two bits of the island have whilst economically coming closer together through a single Europe, have culturally drifted further apart. Southern pre-occupations have been conditioned by 90 years of independence. Where in the northern space do you hear terms like ‘meitheal’ (which basically means no more hand outs; but work together for free to get through the rough times) being bandied around as the way out of the current economic crisis?
This is the problem, as if it needed saying again, that SF confronts in the southern electorate’s indifference to hectoring northern voices telling them what is wrong with their state.
Okay, to journalism. There is certainly value in your point. Just to sharpen it even further, Steven King, in a way, is a replacement of Danny Morrison, one of the few quality writers whose political stand point accurately reflects the majority dispensation within Northern Irish nationalism.
He was lost to the ‘national conversation’ when he was recruited to the Daily Ireland project (as, to a lesser extent, was Jude Collins from the Irish News). When that ship sunk, both lost valuable platforms that have not come back to them.
And before I let the ‘diluted sindoesque’ jibe pass without comment, Millar may have an impeccable Unionist background but he is also recognised as one of the finest journalists on the island. I presume you throw him in as a make weight for the sake of your argument. You might have added Newton Emerson and Finnola Meredith, and noted that Susan McKay seems not to be writing for them as often as she once was.
Fionnuala O’Connor, I guess, is the exception that proves the rule. Malachi too gets the odd piece in. I’ve had more pieces in there than any other Irish paper; but mostly it’s been on the generic subject of politics and the Internet, never specifically on Northern Irish politics.
The problem has at least two dimensions: one, your top down commissioning thing; and the other is the lack of journalistic capacity within the wider Northern Republican body. Robin Livingstone would, IMHO, be capable of stepping up to the mark, but the nature of his committments to the BMG make that a highly unlikely transition.
So let me turn it around and ask you, who would you like to see promoted to project as a bona fide voice of northern Nationalism?
George,
Well, since your argument focuses on the claim of increased attendances, specifically mentioning the Magners League….
Here’s Ulster Branch Michael Reid’s comments..
How are the current difficult economic conditions and climate affecting Ulster Rugby at the moment?
It is difficult to decide if the 15-20% reduction in attendances at Ravenhill is down to the economic climate, the performance of the team or a mixture of both.
http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/9381.php
I’d say there’s a 3rd factor of many being sickened by the eagerness of the Ulster Branch to accept the IRFU terms for an Ireland game but who knows whether thats just me.
Anyhow, lets come back to your debate when you can get your initial facts correct.
I agree with the views here re the views held by “Southerners” re Northern Ireland. The consensus view is that NI is only now of interest because of cheap shopping. There is no intrinsic reason to visit in NI. I would disagree with Malachi O’Doherty, as an uncle implies some form of blood relationship. I have no such relationship with Northern Ireland.
We only go up the M1 to shop; some may stay overnight and discover the joys of decent food at decent prices in some of Belfast’s fine restaurants. However, we are very nervous and fully expect to be shot at any time. We feel completely foreign in NI, and are deeply scared by the relentness obsession with wanting to know people’s religion so that they can be put in the right little box (usually figuratively, but you cannot be too careful). The comments I hear from family and friends who have ventured Northwards are along these lines:
- how could anyone live in such a dreary place?
- it does not feel like the same country
- there are way too many scary-looking people around
- people are hard and nasty
- why should our (increasingly scarce) taxes go to help those welfare cases?
- any expansion of Ireland should include parts of Spain (for the weather) ; God forbid we would ever have anything to do with Northern Ireland.
And yes, I am from South Dublin. And very proud to be from the most cosmopolitan and beautiful part of Ireland.
I await the usual onslaught of sectarian rants, which shall only serve to prove my point.
Gav
you have dispelled any Monday blues I may have been labouring under!
BTW that’s you off the SF Christmas card list. Although being off any SF list is probably a good thing!
Well Gav, what does cosmopolitan actually mean in this context? Can you give us some examples? Because my experience is that drinking a capuccino doesn’t mean a thing about cosmpolitanism.
And when you say we just go up to shop, who is we? Like it or lump it, the last two decades has seen the southern state more engaged with the north than ever before, and has seen the north stitched into the fabric of politics in a way it hadn’t been since perhaps the 1930s. It is far from the top of people’s priorities, it is true, but nor is it any longer the terra incognito it once was.
And I suspect there are quite a few people from the extensive border regions, never mind Dublib, who would have a different attitude than you.
Gav, if you regard South Dublin as the most beautiful and cosmopolitan part of Ireland maybe you need to get out a bit more.
Speaking as another southside Dubliner I would like to reassure all and a sundry that the views expressed by Gav represent those of only a small and atypical, albeit increasingly vocal, minority.
iluvni,
You would have been happy with Danny Boy at ravers and no change of anthems policy in Dublin but not Ireland’s Call which was what was actually played. That does not make any sense.
oneill,
You are no more and no less Irish than anybody else on this island. At no stage did i suggest the contrary.
dub,
Read it again.
“I would have quite happily settled for an announcement that Danny Boy would have been used at Ravenhill, or the opportunity taken to announce Irelands Call as the sole anthem from now on in, home or ‘away’.”
Just to clarify it then: if it had been stated that there would be no change to procedure in Dublin, but gstq in Belfast was just too difficult to swallow for the Nationalist section of the Irish rugby fraternity, and Danny Boy had been mooted as a comprpmise anthem to represent us in NI, I’d have been happy enough..then they could have followed it with Irelands Call.
or…
They could have taken the opportunity to announce that from now on the sole anthem played when Ireland take the field would be Irelands Call…home or away, Dublin, Belfast, Cork, Parism wherever.
Maybe that wasnt too clear before, but its clear now…unless you want to deliberately find it too difficult to appreciate, I suppose
But which version of The Fields of Athenry did they sing? It is a Celtic/Huns song anyway and does not belong in Croker. Talk about confused identities. There is some truth in the old adage that if you understand the situaiton, you don’t
Gav, that’s a pretty sharp reading of Irish attitudes to NI. Any time I told people in Dublin that I was heading in that direction during The Troubles, they’d usually to alert me to the risk of being shot and then inform me that they wouldn’t take that risk by venturing north of Dundalk (ghastly place). I pointed out that they were usually very polite and friendly – probably to dispel the impression that they were all homicidal maniacs, or else it was because the friendly ones were nationalists and any who might be a bit standoffish were unionists. We all have our petty prejudices. I think that doesn’t apply anymore because a Southern accent in NI is much less of a novelty than 15 or so years ago. Most of those who now go there for shopping don’t feel that they are still in Ireland. It still feels to them like a cold and foreign place where they are uncomfortably alert to who might take offence to their Irish licence plate or accent. There certainly is no sincere desire expressed to ever unify with them (beyond lip service to a 32-county ideal that was abandoned in the GFA unbeknownst to them anyway), and I figure unity would be quite a hard sell on both sides of the border. But stranger things have happened. It certainly won’t occur within a context that is aimed at emasculating Irish nationalism by integrating the country into the EU and thereby stripping the people of their sovereign powers (which is what the SDLP really mean). That is a dead end, and should only be proffered by those whose actual agenda is keeping NI within the UK.
Irish attitudes to NI? Don’t you mean attitudes in the republic of Ireland to Northern Ireland?
Pure partitionism. And by the way, the modified constitution still envisages an all-Ireland state, it just lays out that it will come about with consent. Not that that still isn’t lip service for many, but you know, facts is facts.
The GFA legitimises partition in that it specifically provides for the removal of Ireland’s territorial claim to the territory of Northern Ireland. That request was complied with under the 19th amendment to the constitution. Northern is now officially under the undisputed sovereignty of the British parliament. So, it would be anti-democratic to refuse to acknowledge the wish of the majority in both states for a partitionist settlement.
That amendment also uses Ireland as meaning “the island of Ireland” which refers to two separate states of the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, but it also does NOT amend that the name of the Republic of Ireland is “Ireland.” Therefore, we have given you permission to use Ireland in regard to the geographical island in which your partitioned state is located but that’s the only permission you were granted. We’re Irish, you’re Northern Irish.
Facts is facts.
One other point in regard to Europe and the DSLP’s proffering of it as part of its unity srategy: most unionists are Eurosceptics, so the argument that they would prefer to be an Ireland that was integrated into the EU rather than in the Eurosceptic UK is doubly asinine.
Article 4 states that “The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland.” Article 2 gives you the right, if you were born on the island of Ireland, to be part of the Irish nation but it does not confer Irish citizenship upon you. Ergo, you’re part of the nation but not a part of its nation-state. You remain within a foreign state that is under Her Majesty’s sovereign jurisdiction. In addition, the wish of the people of Northern Ireland (the Northern Irish) to join the Irish state – should it ever be so expressed – is subject to the discretion of the citizens of the Republic of Ireland. In short, you may wish to unite, but if we don’t want you, then it’s tough shit, innit?
One last point on this.
[i]Article 3:
It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island. Until then, the laws enacted by the Parliament established by this Constitution shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws enacted by the Parliament that existed immediately before the coming into operation of this Constitution.[/i]
A “wish” is a meaningless aspiration, and you should be careful not to confuse it with a legally binding clause as you seem to have done. To do that is to pre-empt the outcome of the poll that is stipulated in Article 3.
Clearly, there would be no point in holding a poll in the Republic of Ireland is the Irish were bound to consent to the outcome of an affirmative poll in Northern Ireland, would there? Clearly not, so there is no obligation whatsoever on the citizens of the Republic of Ireland to accede to the wishes of the citizens of a foreign state.
You folks need to lose your wholly unmerited sense of entitlement.
I haven’t confused it with a legally binding clause. I said it envisaged unity by consent. Which it does.
As for you folks, you seem to be mistaking me for a northern nationalist. Oh, and by the way, so me a party in the south that doesn’t advocate unity. They all do. So we can assume the entire southern electorate does too. Isn’t that how the electoral system works?
Dr Who
“quote from the fool bemused”
“you and Chris D. cuddling up on sofa on match nights sharing a tin of Special Brew.”
“this just makes you look just like another daft little republican bigot.”
Carlsberg don’t do bitter and twisted Slugger comments, but if they did….
I hope you’ve calmed down from yesterday’s little tantrum, the highlights- or lowlights- of which I’ve kindly repeated above (oh, and please do abide Mick’s plea to forego the swear words…)
It’s truly wonderful that you feel able to support catholics playing for Northern Ireland, wearing your green shirt in the process. Personally, I don’t give any thought into the religion of players from the sporting teams I support, but there you go.
Oh, and on that point, I note with amusement John East Belfast’s suggestion that catholics aged 14 to 16 will be at risk of being attacked for playing for Northern Ireland. I personally know kids involved in the Northern Ireland set-up, having taught a couple and benefitted from their talent in school-based teams I’ve taught.
And I know there isn’t any threat to any of these kids now, nor in the past. Indeed, if John wanted to cast his mind back to a certain dreadful fixture in 1993, he’d realise the only threats to players representing the t’other team on the island were directed at Alan Kernaghan for, apparently, betraying his Ulster Protestant roots and playing for what one of our unionist commenters on the site refers to elsewhere as ‘The Dark Side.’
Regarding the Commonwealth Games, you’ve correctly identified the fact that the Northern Ireland team flies a flag that has no legitimate standing in the state- it certainly isn’t the current government/ administration’s ‘standard’, and last was seen officially flying from the HQ of that bastion of tolerance in east Belfast- Castlereagh Council offices.
It is quite revealing that, when faced with the opportunity of nationalists/ republicans affording respect to the National flag so endeared by unionists, the goalposts shift. It simply confirms yet again the unwillingness of many unionists to afford legitimacy to the all-Ireland identity of nationalists.
Oneill
A member of the New Force claiming others wish to remain in ghettos. How rich- and reminiscent of the Orange Order’s argument about nationalists opposing their ‘dignified’ parades through nationalist districts. Now, where exactly does your party stand on a ‘shared stadium?’ Sporting ghettos indeed…
Now to the (slightly) more substantial points you raise.
I would happily forego anthems and emblems for a united Ireland tomorrow. But it isn’t gonna happen, so we’re left with a deeply divided society attempting to forge roots to create a stable future.
Mutual respect, like in so many other areas of our society, runs to the core of this dispute.
Unionists like yourself have every right to call yourself Irish, Northern Irish, British or all of the above (heck, even Ulster-Scots or Scotch-Irish for all I care.)
But what you don’t have a right to do is attempt to restrict the ability of fellow Irishmen residing in the north to develop their Irish identity in a manner they feel comfortable with. It is a problem unionist politicians have yet to address- not least those in your own Conservative/ Unionist New Force Axis.
That, unfortunately, is what the IFA stand accused of, most likely without fully appreciating the political significance of their campaign (for, let’s be honest, they’re not Ulster’s finest) –something which can not be said of the unionist politicians who’ve championed their cause, and cheerleaders like yourself.
Naturally, you’d like to see a united Northern Ireland soccer team just as I’d like to see a united Ireland soccer team. Both are possible in the medium term; I will continue to support all Irishmen who make the grade at any sport, with obvious preferences within that.
Chris D.
I see you are quoting me from other threads and I love the Carlsberg comment even if it is way off the mark.
For biter and twisted please see your quote below.
“After all, these are the same people that were responsible for the attempt to enforce an ‘Ulster is British’ ruling with FIFA regarding player eligibility which failed and blew up in their face. ”
Not only is it biter, but it is a lie, the IFA where doing no such thing. They have secured the right of their players to travel on an Irish passport if they wish to. So aknowlege your nonsense and move on.
“It’s truly wonderful that you feel able to support catholics playing for Northern Ireland, wearing your green shirt in the process. Personally, I don’t give any thought into the religion of players from the sporting teams I support, but there you go.”
No, as I was at pains to point out the religion of the players and supporters does not interest me, if it didn´t interest you Chris you might choose to follow NI. I am also at pains to point out that I don´t think anyone from my birth relgion plays for NI and that is also irrelevant to my suppport.
In relation to flags and anthems you ignored my point that nationalists and republicans have no interest in developing a neutral flag for NI, instead they prefer the Union Flag to represent their part of the UK and Ireland. Any compromise on flags by republicans will of course be furthering the legitimacy of NI as an entity. An entity which is recognised internationally and officially by Provisional Sinn Fein.
Now if you where to look at the wide range of flags that NI fans take with them to matches you would witness a wide range of ideas and expressions of Irishness.
“It is quite revealing that, when faced with the opportunity of nationalists/ republicans affording respect to the National flag so endeared by unionists, the goalposts shift. It simply confirms yet again the unwillingness of many unionists to afford legitimacy to the all-Ireland identity of nationalists.”
Really, I don´t have any great love for the “Ulster” flag, but I would love to see your suggestions for an alternative that we can use at NI matches, Ulster and Ireland rugby matches etc.
And you see that´s the point, you refuse to see that on an All Ireland basis like in Rugby, the Northern unionist identidy is deemed irrelevant. Far as long as people like you drive this there will never be further all Ireland bodies never mind a United Ireland.
I really should say keep the bitterness and twisted ideas coming Chris.
Dr Who
I suppose we should be greatful you managed to keep your ahead in your response and avoid using language that the clergy do not know…
“No, as I was at pains to point out the religion of the players and supporters does not interest me”
Yes, at pains indeed…
Regarding my apparent falsehood, you are wrong (plus ca change.) My reference to the ‘Ulster is British’ campaign of the IFA refers to their attempt to deny Irish citizens the right (recognised now, apparently, by Sepp Blatter) to represent their country.
Regarding a flag for the Six Counties, I’m personally quite open to such a discussion and know many nationalists and republicans of a similar mind.
However, don’t confuse such openness with a willingness to jettison allegiance to the Irish National flag, an allegiance many unionists like yourself find it beyond them to acknowledge.
“..you refuse to see that on an All Ireland basis like in Rugby, the Northern unionist identidy is deemed irrelevant.”
What an interesting comment. Kinda gives you a touch of the experience of northern nationalists in the Six county state for 90 years, though your follow up comment that this will ensure no all-Ireland/ cross-border bodies is drivel: the success of the rugby federation in accommodating and attracting support from all sections of the Irish Nation is what annoys many unionists, particularly as it stands in marked contrast to the abysmal failure of the northern-based IFA with regard to soccer allegiance in the north.
See Ed Curran’s (a fellow unionist, note) interesting piece in yesterday’s Belfast Telegraph for an insight into how one prominent ardent unionist felt comfortable in Croke Park on Saturday night.
Oh, and keep drinking those green tins, Doc!
Was the flag of Northern Ireland flown at equal standing to that of the Republic at the match in Croker? If not then the Northern Tradition is NOT being afforded parity of esteem.
Likewise, was the Sash played along with Fields of Athenry during the prematch warm-up?
(.. please no-one start slabbering about not official etc etc – if its good enough for football & the commonwealth games its good enough for rugby)
I make an argument about the IRFU adopting a more inclusive attitude and bang on cue comesthe Orange Order…and to think I had you pegged as one-dimensional. And my “party”, like me, does not take a line against a “shared” stadium, simply the Maze Project and no matter how often you and your party colleagues try to spread the black propaganda, that fact remains.
Mutual respect, like in so many other areas of our society, runs to the core of this dispute.
Quite and the IRFU declaring Belfast as an away venue for an Ireland team which possesses and has possessed many, many players and supporters from Ulster is only a sympton of this lack of mutual respect. The Ireland rugby team should represent all on the island and its policy on anthems and flags should reflect that fact. That opinion does not, as you imply, mean that any version of an Irish identity should be imposed on anyone else; in this regard- it’s an opinion calling for “mutual respect” as you might put it.
, unfortunately, is what the IFA stand accused of, most likely without fully appreciating the political significance of their campaign (for, let’s be honest, they’re not Ulster’s finest) –something which can not be said of the unionist politicians who’ve championed their cause, and cheerleaders like yourself.
I don’t want the two national teams segregated along “communal” lines, nothing dishonourable with that motive whatsoever. And whilst the IFA pick players respective of what school or church they may have attended, the FAI is engaged on selective targeting of players from only one community background.
The above post is for Chris Donnelly.
” If not then the Northern Tradition is NOT being afforded parity of esteem.”
I support this call that the Tricolour be proudly flown in Northern Ireland!
As a southern rugger fan I agree with Iluvni. One anthem is enough. Danny Boy is perfect. Emotive. Also not crap and more importantly, not divisive.
For a flag, I suggest the shamrock.
The Ulster lads have made a big contribution to the team’s success this year so let’s make a real effort to listen to, and act upon, the concerns of Ulster fans.
Are you listening Philip Browne?