Sinn Fein’s intractable two nation problem…
There is no easy way in Ireland to guage the effect of a party conferences on public opinion. For small parties like Sinn Fein, which rarely get a chance to break past the bigger beasts who take the full attention of big media, such effects are critical. The focus of the party’s Ard Fheis (live blogged here), we were told, would certainly be on the future, and on the south. But amongst the big ticket performers Northern Ireland and the DUP featured front and centre. According to Mark Hennessey, this opportunity to pitch to a southern audience eager for change fell substantially short of the mark, not least because:
…the details that came were patchy and failed to convince, and certainly failed to differentiate the party from the clutter of noise amongst the Opposition.
The party has two problems. One they are always happy to speak about (Partition), but usually in terms of it being Someone else’s problem. The other they are much more cautious about, not least because it implies a generational shift in the leadership of the party is necessary; what character of leadership will win success on two sides of the border.
Having exploited the split polity of the island for many years often by playing one set of publics off the other, Sinn Fein is now failing to translate the strength of its power north of the border into something intelligable and compelling for audiences in the Republic. It’s a big ask. Short of the Ba’ath party in the middle east there is little evidence that it has been done elsewhere.
Although the IRA has decommissioned its weapons, the political narrative that once sustained it – ie that the partition of the island was imposed externally and would have to be dismantled through external negotiation primarily with the British government in London – still delimits the orthodoxy of mainstream party thinking.
The Belfast Agreement effectively ‘Ulsterised’ the problem of partition. As Paul Arthur argued in Special Relationships (back in 2000), the party officially accepted that the question of unification has shifted from an exogenous to an endogenous one. In other words, partition is now Northern Irish nationalism’s problem alone. It alone must come up with the road map and put it into practice.
Then there is the disconsonance between the Northern Irish leadership, and its southern ambitions. In 2007 Adams was played as what the party clearly believed to be a trumph card. The result was sobering.
By far the most compelling speech on the subject came from a young Donegal councillor called Padraig MacLochlainn. A parliamentary candidate last time out, MacLochlainn’s instinct is to turn an ideological bent into a pratical (and local) manifesto:
I live in the Inishowen peninsula right on the border. I have seen the negative and debilitating impact of partition at first hand. I have seen cancer patients travelling hundreds of miles when they could have had those services on their doorstep. I have seen investment agencies compete rather than cooperate and ultimately fail us on either side of the border. I have seen our services taken away and economic prosperity pass us by again and again. Partition has been a profound injustice to the people of the border counties but it has also failed all the people of this island.
That is as succinct and eloquent a description of the way in which one Irish county above all others has been penalised by the nearly 90 year old border. But it is a measure of the party’s overall problems that his own party’s minister for Regional Development, Conor Murphy, was compelled, in the same week as the party’s Ard Fheis to refuse to support for a cross border ferry serving Padraig’s own Inishowen, “because it conveys vehicles from one jurisdiction to another“.
Such conflict of interest in a single political party is underscored by a generational gap between the two men. Murphy is an old northern IRA man; MacLochlainn is part of what Irish economist David McWilliams calls the Pope’s Children generation; Ireland’s much later version (those born in the 70s as opposed to the 50s and 60s) of the baby boomers.
The new generation’s preoccupations are primarily economic and social and concerned with the future. They are much less likely to be engaged with the beggar-thy-neighbour exigencies of the past that drive unionist as well as nationalist politics north of the border. MacLochlainn is a good match for that generation, but his party’s leadership hails from another era, and a very different place.
Gerry Adams has been party President for coming up to 23 years, ever since he masterminded a bloodless coup by a group of northerners against the previous southern leadership. Under his leadership Sinn Fein has moved from absentionism to a ballot box and Armalite strategy and finally through the Peace Process years to electoral success in Northern Ireland.
Having elevated their one MEP in the Republic, Mary Lou McDonald to the role of party Vice President (the previous incumbent held the post for 20 years), they will hope she can pull off the seemingly impossible and win in a Dublin constituency that has lost one of its seats. Recent polls suggest the party’s support is stagnating in the south; even as voter confidence in the government parties is flat lining.
That the party was stranded in the posh southern suburbs of Dublin whilst 100,000 citizens took to the streets to protest the Irish government’s proposed pensions levy may have been sheer bad luck. But the impression given is of a party’s whose political instincts are becoming marginal to the concerns of the majority of those in the south they seek to represent.
In truth the party of rebellion is now a party of government. It is a reality that seems to trouble the party far more than its inveterate Unionist enemies in Stormont. And one that the party’s President Gerry Adams seems either unwilling or unable to confront. But until and unless he or his successor does; the party seem set to continue largely like a fiercer version of the SDLP. And as a northern party only.
Adds: You can see the problem illustrated in this interview with Gerry Adams on RTE at the weekend…
Mack
This is not only a huge vote loser, it’s the wrong thing to do for the country. It won’t fly with the other parties or the electorate.
I don’t have a party, Mack. It was a vote loser last year. Now I’m unconvinced a small increase would be completely unpalatable. If the case was made, you’d need figures to back it up. I’m flying a kite, basically, but if you want to convince me of your argument “Bad! Bad” Bad!” I don’t think should do any more.
Did the roof cave in going form 10%->12.5%, out of interest?
Kensei – didn’t say you did – but we’re discussing SF, but (correct me if I’m wrong), I thought you were suggesting they were proposing it?
Did the roof cave in going form 10%->12.5%, out of interest?
There’s a lot of other variables, but the drivers of growth certainly changed in the last 8 years from export growth to domestic construction.
Kensei – for companies paying 10% before 1998 it doesn’t kick in until 2010. Other companies have been paying 12.5% since 2003.
http://www.revenue.ie/en/business/incentives/tax-incentives-investors-ireland.html
IFSC is still 10% until 2010 too.
http://www.myhome.ie/commercial/advice-centre/1115-1115-2421/corporation-tax-in-ireland.asp
In regard to the Laffer Curve, not all supply-siders would claim that cutting taxes will increase tax revenues. It’s a case of being selective about which taxes you cut. Cutting income taxes will not increase tax revenue from those who pay income tax by the pixie dust expedient of that group having more disposable income to stimulate demand for goods and thereby create more jobs to increase the pool of those who pay income tax as businesses employ more people to meet the increased demand. If this were true (as Nanny-state addicts would love it to be), then the State could solve all of its fiscal problems by printing money and paying all a mandatory wage that was necessary for them to go out and buy things. On the other hand, cutting corporation taxes does lead to higher tax returns from business as they will reinvest their money in increased entrepreneurial activity on the supply-side. Clearly it is better that those who are experienced in wealth creation should have control of the wealth, and not those who only know now to spend it on food or the trinkets of the consumer society or tax it.
The argument that Ireland has a competitive advantage within the EU by offering a lower corporation tax rate to FDI parties is redundant since the EU expanded to include Eastern bloc countries which offer considerably lowered corporation tax rates than Ireland, thereby rendering Ireland’s much-touted ‘competitive advantage’ obsolete. Bulgaria and Cyprus, for example, have lower corporation tax rates than Ireland and Estonia has now abolished corporation tax. It remains, however, a definate advantage to Ireland that its entrepenuers should retain most of their profits and reinvest them to generate more profits.
“When the time is right Dublin will do what they’re told ! They don’t get a say this time round.” – Percy
Bring it on, bitch.
Sinn Fein are an All-Ireland party; therefore they need much stronger politicans in Dublin. What happens in Belfast and across Ulster doesn’t concern the average voter in the other provinces.
Likewise, if you had a Munster party that was essentially focused all the time on what happens in Cork and Kerry it won’t interest too many people in other parts of the country. Do people in North Antrim want to be listening to Cork politicians on tv talking about only Cork or Kerry issues all the time? No.
Sinn Fein need to start treating Ulster and Stormont as a regional part of the country, which is all it is. “Northern Ireland” is just a part of Ulster, a province. Sinn Fein need to be much more involved in and aware of the entire country’s politics. The main political focus of this island is in Dublin. You have to have a real presence in the Dublin media to get the eyes and ears of the average Irish voter.
I was in Cork recently and the taxi men weren’t listening to regional Cork radio they were listening to 2fm or Today fm. Sinn Fein need to realise that what happens daily in Belfast or Derry is just provincial stuff of little interest at a 32 county level.
They need to set up home base in Dublin, find strong characters who talk about daily events on the ground as much as the need for unification and stop being so Ulster orientated.
Austin Currie relocated from the north and got elected into the Dail. Maybe wee Gerry should be thinking of a move to Dublin? Northern nationalists in general need much more of a presence and voice in the capital.
Go visit any Dublin University and you’ll hear a lot more accents from all parts of Ireland than the six counties. Northern nationalists are much too Ulster focused and it’s to their detriment at a national level.
Dave
Clearly it is better that those who are experienced in wealth creation should have control of the wealth, and not those who only know now to spend it on food or the trinkets of the consumer society or tax it.
“Trickle-down economics”. Uh. If one good thing comes out of this bust, it should be the death of this. We do not want an elite controlling all the welath, and hope that, maybe, the money might come down.
Creating a successful business is a tricky thing. Managing to do it once si no guarantee you’ll do it again, and even good business ideas prudently run die, for a variety of factors. What we want is to encourage a wider range of people to try and start business, have lots of little small experiments. There is a lot too that, but part of getting the little people involved is insuring that failure is survivable.
Very often the tax paid simply goes into the hands of shareholders, rather than further investment.
Percy
“help is on the way”
You know, Percy, my old grandfather used to say things like that 50 years ago and long before him people were singing, “There’s wine from the royal pope and Spanish ale shall give you hope, My dark Rosaleen…” but I’m still under British rulein my part of Ireland.
Thanks anyhow Percy.
Hi Percy/Dunreavy,
“help is on the way”
The way things are going the Republic could be seeking to rejoin the UK. Things are going tits up down south as it is – threatening to leave the Euro???. If Obama repatriates earnings from US companies as he said he would do you’re totally f*cked.
Whilst I’m sure you don’t agree with what I’ve said I’ve heard the above muted by posters from Dublin on other sites, notably propertypin. Probably West Brits tho ;0)
This is the sort of debate we need if we are to see a United Ireland, its a shame the politicians donrt seem to listen to the people any more, particularly about getting rid of the border, which makes no sense anyway. I think we should face facts, if any party on the island is going to get a United Ireland, it will be Sinn Fein, no other party seems to care enough about the issue. LETS TALK ABOUT PRINCIPLES!!
Mack
Kensei – didn’t say you did – but we’re discussing SF, but (correct me if I’m wrong), I thought you were suggesting they were proposing it?
They were proposing it before the last election, based on a study I think, until they weren’t. Now I don’t know.
I’m just throwing out ideas. One thing to note is that over the course of the past thirty years, risk has shifted dramatically from companies and government to individuals. I believe corporation tax as percentage fo total tax intake has fallen; the job for life has disappeared; final salary pension schemes have closed and its a riskier proposition for individuals; in the US less jobs offer health care and co-payments have increased. Some of that is perhaps desirable. But there is consequences and it remains to be seen if that shift stands up in worse times.
As a result of the crisis we should be revaulating the received wisdom of the past era. Perhaps you still will come out with an insistence not to raise corporation tax, but I think it’s worth reopening the question, particularly when everyone else is getting hit.
Conchuir
“no other party seems to care”
and that is why the Union is not seriously challenged.
Congal Claen
The Republic is not going to rejoin the United Kingdom, the Union was a disaster for Ireland (the long decline of Dublin after 1801, famine, home rule fillibustering etc). It’s just not going to happen, despite what a few individuals sickened with the behaviour of FF and their banker / developer friends write in moment of frustration. No reason why we shouldn’t have very close ties and even pool sovereignty in certain areas, but the Irish nation must remain sovereign (and not Westminister).
Kensei
One thing to note is that over the course of the past thirty years, risk has shifted dramatically from companies and government to individuals
Sort of.
In Ireland the social safety net has grown (which means government, which is ultimately funded by the tax payer as taken on greater risk).
Greater flexibility in hiring and firing is largely a good thing. It allows companies to take a risk when hiring or promoting. I’ve seen this first hand in my own line of work. Labour laws are reasonably flexible compared with contitental Europe in Ireland, but less flexible than in the USA. What I’ve seen, is that in good times companies were more likely to hire (and pay good wages) in Ireland and the USA, because it’s straightforward to let staff go, if it turns the company can’t afford them.
However, while redundancies are straightforward in Ireland, plain old firings are very, very difficult compared to the USA. So companies are much more reluctant to take a risk and promote someone who shows some flair, but is inexperienced. My experience of US companies is that employees move up the ladder much quicker (and get fired more regularly) in the US offices than in the Irish offices.
If house prices weren’t so ridiculously overpriced, with the social safety nets we have. I think most people would take getting hired & promoted with greater ease even if it meant you’d get let go every so often (you’d be building your skills base & personal value much quicker).
(The time you spend on the dole between jobs in a flexible labour market probably is balanced by the time you’ll spend on the dole before you get your first job in an inflexible one).
BonarLaw,
I’d back that view, up to a point. But I would qualify it by saying that some nationalists don’t seem to care enough, and SF care too much… if that makes sense..?
Mack
If house prices weren’t so ridiculously overpriced, with the social safety nets we have. I think most people would take getting hired & promoted with greater ease even if it meant you’d get let go every so often (you’d be building your skills base & personal value much quicker).
Out of inetrest, do you have kids?
Kensei – Yes, one so far. Bear in mind in Ireland the social safety net includes paying the interest on your mortgage.
Hi Mack,
Remember what I wrote was in response to “help is on the way”. If help is coming for NI it isn’t coming from the RoI. You’re one of the few nations in the EU that are even more fekked than we are. Having said that what will you do if you’re ejected from the Euro or more likely Germany walks away from it and it collapses? The new Punt would be fekked before it started. You may have to look for new friends!!!
Congal Claen
Having said that what will you do if you’re ejected from the Euro or more likely Germany walks away from it and it collapses?
That’s actually a benign outcome for Ireland. Our debts are denominated in Euros, which makes withdrawing from the Euro and devaluing a non-runner. German withdrawal, followed by Euro collapse would collapse the value of our debts, and also our currently overpriced public sector wages. Our private sector would instantly become competitive again & we could start growing our exports again, we wouldn’t even have to worry about paying down Euro debt at that stage.
Once the Euro hit rock bottom, we could pull out and start over with our own currency. There would be little argument I suspect from debtors to converting our much reduced Euro debts into a currency that would at that stage be more credible.
Mack
Kensei – Yes, one so far. Bear in mind in Ireland the social safety net includes paying the interest on your mortgage.
And you’d be prepared to risk potentially frequent periods without work? I can cope with that with little ties, but I simply can’t imagine it would be an attractive prospect for people I work with several kids, mortgage relief or not.
Kensei – You work in IT though? Every year, in every company I’ve worked for there’s been redundancies. We’re waiting on word from above as I write this now! It’s not ideal, but I already live in that world, and at least during good times there are lots of jobs.
Compare working in IT with teaching. A lot of teachers, a protected sector where workers can’t be fired, find it difficult to get permanent work. It can take years of filling in temporarily for mothers on maternity leave, or of subbing while on the dole before you get a full-time, permanent job – even during good times.
You work in IT though? Every year, in every company I’ve worked for there’s been redundancies. We’re waiting on word from above as I write this now! It’s not ideal, but I already live in that world, and at least during good times there are lots of jobs.
True enough. In four years, I think I have survived 5 redundancies. But I don’t think I want my employment any more precarious than it already is.
In bad times, it’s easy to be out of work a long time, even if you are competent.
Compare working in IT with teaching. A lot of teachers, a protected sector where workers can’t be fired, find it difficult to get permanent work. It can take years of filling in temporarily for mothers on maternity leave, or of subbing while on the dole before you get a full-time, permanent job – even during good times.
Teachers get ten billion holidays a year, and decent pay even when subbing. I’m not entirely sure that’s all that bad!
There is probably a happy medium here.
I don’t think you can get any more flexible than the IT labour force. There’s no unions, we’re pretty much on that cutting edge of capitalism. Without it (flexible labour force), would we have survived the onslaught from India in the West until now?
Teaching – it’s certainly not all bad. Quiet good conditions really, which is one of the reasons it’s difficult to get a job..
The other advantage for the individual of highly flexible workforces is you can change careers quite easily. If you can get hired and promoted fast, the financial pain of shifting careers is lessened. Might lead to a more fulfilling life in the end. Benefits the economy too, as workers can move with the times & innovations.
Mick, I was looking at the Irish News pictures of Gerry Adams back in 1994 when the ceasefire was called.
There was a swarm of cameras around him, so much exposure – as much perhaps as any PM would expect on big issues.
Perhaps 11 years for the IRA to wind up was just too slow and the press exposure, whilst heavy, was ruined by the slow pace of reform, namely the dragging out of decommissioning was self-defeating for unionist and indeed nationalist politics. That failure in changing track from what could conceivably be called a negative/grievance nationalism to a new more positive vision, built up using rational thought on the economic differences between the two political states, seems to have slipped away from SF at the very time when they had the world’s media attention.
This failure of this more positive yet long term political picture has meant that SF has let all the fizz go out on just becoming a northern party bubbling up to the top after grindingly slow northern political reforms.
Basically what I am saying is that SF has never really ridden the southern horse at all, and even today when we hear the likes of Adams talking about hounding bankers and such likes, the grievance culture is alive and well rather than any positive vision of a way out of the economic duldrums. So while it may be a 1930s style crisis there is no way that a 1930s response will fit the bill, it will articulate a grievance and annoyance but people always need answers they can believe in. I don’t think SF have that diagnosis in the south or north.
C.O.F
“Let’s talk about principles”
Aye, why not, but the problem with Sinn Féin is that ‘principles’ become ‘tactics’ overnight when they no longer suit the generalissimo’s schemes.
List out a few of those ‘principles’ for us to talk about here.
Hi Mack,
If the Republic left the Euro it’s debt would still be in Euro. That debt would be increasing against a new fledgling punt that would obviously get battered. It wouldn’t be a question of choosing devaluation. Rather it would be thrust upon you.
If the Euro collapsed thro’ German withdrawal I’m not sure what would happen with the debt. I can’t imagine it would just disappear…
There is no way that the Irish Republic will leave the Euro. I dunno where ye got that mad notion Congal!
BTW, if anything the Euro is safe guarding us in a way, unlike Iceland and it’s fate.
“If the Euro collapsed thro’ German withdrawal ….”
This would never happen Congal. If anything the UK will eventually adopt the Euro down the line, given the sharp demise in value of the Pound.
Hi Greagoir,
David McWilliams, a former official at the Irish central bank, was talking about it a few weeks ago. Others talk of the Republic being ejected. So, I haven’t dreamt it up on my own.
The UK won’t join as it’s a political decision not an economic one. Politically we don’t want it. You talk of sharp demise of the pound. That’s what the BoE wanted.
Congal Claen
I think you misunderstood, you suggested that Germany might leave the Euro and it might collapse. I said that was a relatively benign scenario for Ireland as our Euro debts, and high wages would be devalued (of course we’d find it more difficult to continue to borrow in Euros). Ireland could pick the most opportune moment to leave the collapsed currency, whether or not debtors would allow old debts to be reconstitueted in Punt Nua in that case wouldn’t really matter (it would reduce cross-currency risk for Ireland if they did, but in all likelihood the Euro would consist of an ever-decreasing pool of the worst performing nations and would likely continue to devalue as stronger nations left).
——–
You talk of sharp demise of the pound. That’s what the BoE wanted.
Don’t kid yourself, the BoE did not devalue Sterling, the markets did it for them.
We’ll see how it pans out in the long term / medium term, coupled with QE I would expect to see much higher inflation in the UK over the coming months and years.
What industries in the UK do you expect to benefit from the drop in Sterling? Do you think Sterling’s fall is complete? What if it falls further?
—–
McWilliams is a newspaper columnist, that’s all. I wouldn’t read into it his comments that this is official policy.
——
On what grounds could Ireland be ejected from the Euro?
Mick, is the GFA a settlement and by extension an end in itself, as you suggested earlier in the thread, or rather is it a means to an end and part of a journey? I for one choose to believe the latter. This Island will be reunified within the next 20-25 years and when it is SF, as things currently stand as the only All-Ireland party, will be best placed to benefit from it. This is only the beginning and the Shinners are just getting started! They are now laying the foundations for long term political success, a view that was shared I believe by the one time viceroy to the north, Peter Mandleson.
Quagmire on Spotlight tonight 15% of new british army recruits are from the south, keep laying those foundations then.
Quagmire on Spotlight tonight 15% of new british army recruits are from the south, keep laying those foundations then.
Posted by DC on Feb 24, 2009 @ 10:56 PM
Whats wrong with that? If Ireland is to be united then those on the Island who wish to be British should be afforded that opportunity whether it be the issuing of a passport or their ability to join the British army. Just because I want the border to go does not mean I want to dilute the Britishness of any of the Island’s citizens. In fact in the event of a united Ireland this entitlement should be copper fastened as a right in any potential new All -Ireland constitution. Green, white and orange remember?
A flag is not a constitution, nor is a tradition (which is what is denoted by the Orange) the same thing as a nation. Two traditions = one nation. One nation = one nation-state. Two nations = two states = partition.
Hi Mack,
Remember I’m arguing from a point of view that the republic aren’t going to ride to the aid of NI as some posters claimed above. Believe me I think GB has made a complete ballix of the UK economy. However, as I see it the Republic are in a select band of countries who are in an even worse position than we are.
The BoE could have supported the pound by not reducing interest rates. Which I think they should have. Devaluation is what weak economies resort to. The UK economy is totally skewed towards housing and debt which is mental. I agree with you that we’re in for serious inflation in the not too distant future.
On ejection from the Euro, it’s possible but maybe not likely. I believe you’re supposed to stay within 3%GDP borrowing as part of the stability pact. Something which the Republic are well outside.
Principles, well here’s one for you, united ireland, and let me tell you it’s coming, its gonna take time but it’s coming. And to BonarLaw, I agree, so lets push the SDLP, FF,FG into sriously debating the issue, of getting what is right and getting a United Ireland
Ireland has only ever been united within the UK. Welcome home prodigal Irish ;0)
Don’t you see how close we are to having a United Ireland? Six Counties, and I wonder in how many of those counties there is a Unionist Majority of in electoral districts if you want?
Hi C O’F,
There are still approx 900,000 residents who want nothing to do with it. Similar to the amount in 1922. Why change it. Border may be redrawn but there won’t be an all-island Republic.
Er – weren’t you always only six counties off a United Ireland Conchuir…..
Congal Claen, changing it would be a matter for the electorates in the respective states of Ireland. I tend to think, northern unionists should relax a little on the issue. Irish politics is very different from the type practiced by northern nationalists, unionists have nothing to fear from the south and perhaps a lot to gain in terms of participating in the running of a country and building a non-subvention economy, and escaping the clutches of northern nationalism!
Idealogically, I can’t think of something further removed from the socialist’s wet dream of NI’s state dependent economy and Ireland’s (Republic) dynamic free market economy. So while SF might be the one’s pushing for a united Ireland, should it ever come about, the reality will be very far removed from their dreams.
Hi Mack,
Depends on your perspective. Looking out maybe it seems that way to you. Looking in, it’s different. The obsession with Irish Gaelic is one example – all EU docs into gaelic? What a waste of time/money. And btw, I support the promotion of gaelic.
This could be true, but i have to agree with Mack, Unionists would have many advantages in a United Ireland. They would make up 20% of the population as opposed to 2% in GB. Congal Claen, without being rude to yourself, it is somewhat hypocritcal, that you would support An Teanga but not want it used commonly as in EU documents. Maybe there wouldnt be a socialist republic, but even I as a “Shinner” would be very happy with a United Ireland, on which we would have the chance to build a strong economy, either as Socialist or Capitalist, but in the current climate, socialism would work very well I would think.
I might add to Democrat, that a United Republic of Ireland was more than Six Counties away, since Colonianism began, until in 1922, when the Irish Free State was established.
Congal Claen
Ok, that’s one issue, but it occurs already now – in Ireland (Republic) and at the EU level – how would you envisage a United Ireland making that situation any worse for you? It’s highly unlikely Dublin would foist the policy on Stormont. And as regards the south, most people in Ireland (Republic) support the policy, you’d actually be able to vote against it in a united Ireland.
Anyhoo, I think similar policies also exist in other regions in the UK?
Conchuir O Fearain
but in the current climate, socialism would work very well I would think.
In what sense? Iveagh house beaucrats mandate we build a Google-killer?
Business cycles are a natural part of the flow of economic history. Central planning doesn’t work. Free enterprise with a social safety net has been inordinately successful.
Hi C O’F,
The Republic could make up 10% of the UK as opposed to circa 1% in the EU. What’s the point in quoting these figures?
The translations actually put people off the language as they see it being used as a political tool and not as any genuine love for the language. Fact is, no one is ever going to read them.
So a UI within the UK would be ok then?
Congal Claen
The United Kingdom is a different kettle of fish to the EU. In the EU we pool sovereignty, in the UK Westminster is Soveriegn.
I’d be surprised if you don’t get the import of the figures. The Northern Unionist electorate could actually have a direct say in how a sovereign nation was run. The numerical balances in the UK prevent that from happening (certainly Tory or Labour governments could take a fancy to some bright young local, and draft them into the cabinet, but that’s an entirely different proposition from entering government on the force of a sizeable mandate).
While I’m not suggesting you vote for it, southern politics is inherently less tribal than Northern politics, I stand by my ascertain you have nothing to fear.
Hi Mack,
It’s just a symptom of the disease which is much more widespread. Essentially it boils down to lots of nationalists think gaelic and irish and mutually interchangeable terms. They fail to see that the OO and other such things are equally as Irish. Nationalists do not to appear to cherish the OO. It’s seen as somehow foreign.
Agree totally on you comments on socialism – it didn’t work and is essentially dead. The changes in China surely are the last nail in the coffin for socialism working.
Hi Mack,
“The United Kingdom is a different kettle of fish to the EU. In the EU we pool sovereignty, in the UK Westminster is Soveriegn.”
So there won’t be another vote on Lisbon?
We do have a say on how the UK runs. Minor. But that is a reflection of our number. Although in actual fact we have a disproportionate vote as we’ve more MPs than 1.7 million voters would suggest.
The Republic only has one tribe. That is the problem.
Well, I’m slightly confused as to whether you speak of nationalism (which is predominantly a northern phenomen, which a united Ireland would help you escape) or you mean the Irish state?
The Irish government provides funding to the OO in the south, the President recently visited an Orange Hall in Cavan (I think). Given the OO has a tiny presence in the south, and that the OO in the north probably wouldn’t want to give credence to the notion that the Irish government is their government or it’s President, their President. Also consider that we have situation where Orange / Unionist institutions have essentially divorced themselves from the Irish nation – if they or you aren’t happy with that arrangement, shout it loudly so everyone knows things have changed and you’ll be sure of the best welcome imaginable!
There are certainly sectarian tensions in the north that pit the two tribes against each other. Those tensions exist only at massively reduced levels (largely insignificant) in the south.