If you are still not convinced that the left in Ireland are acting in defence of privilege, give Brian Boru’s comment on the demography of the potential voters swithcing support to labour a quick goo – hint, it’s heavily AB1′s. (Almost certainly workng in the public sector or in state protected industries like the legal profession (state protection from competition in fields such as conveyancing keeps their fees extortionately high)).

In the middle of a crises they are going to bring the nation to a stand still, sullying (further) our international reputation. In my opinion they got off very lightly with the pension levy (it is a tiny saving on spending) – although did does hit lower paid workers hardest which I think is unfair. However, the government are elected to govern and they should let them get on with it. If we all acted like this, the country would be sunk completely in no time.

You are kidding yourself if you think they are marching for 30% pay cuts (on the overall average, which could be achieved in large part by capping salaries at say €80,000) to bring their salaries back in line with those of private sector.

‘Funny that, isn’t it? Because if one listened to you one would believe that they were somehow linked to people who believed in fiscal conservatism.

Why is that?

Here’s a list of Madoff’s ‘grateful ‘ fiscal conservative recipients . You’ll note that one of them i.e the Presidential nominee as late as last September is on record as stating the USA’s economy is fundamentally ‘Sound ‘ . Note the list of ‘formers ‘ on the Republican side

– Former Texas Rep. Jack Fields
– Arizona Sen. John McCain
– Former N.Y. Rep. Vito Fossella
– Former Louisiana Rep. “Billy” Tauzin
– Former N.Y. Rep. Daniel Frisa
– Former N.Y. Sen. Alfonse D’Amato

I read that Democrats and Republicans are not exactly ‘rushing ‘ to return Madoff’s ‘dirty ‘ money .

So what does that tell you about human nature ?

Meanwhile the CEO of the largest bank on the planet, Bank of America has been subpoenaed to appear before a select committee to investigate the former’s complicity in enabling Merrill Lynch to pay million dollar bonuses to some 700 employees and share 120 million among the top four executives ?

What does that tell you about banker’s ethics ?

Meanwhile sitting on an oriental rug inside a tent somewhere between Afghanistan and Pakistan Osama Bin Laden was retelling his devotees of his great coup of 9/11 against the Great Satan .

‘ I destroyed their financial centre so I did’

says Obama .

‘I hear they’re giving out huge bonuses to people who can do that these days’ said one of his listeners .

‘How much of a bonus did you get for 9/11 ‘?

asked another .

I’m glad that you have come round to my original point.

They’re are striking over contributing to their superior pensions. Actions speak louder than words.

Their actions only demonstrate that the unions do not agree with the government’s proposed formula.

It does not follow that they are unwilling to share any pain, as you have claimed.

How many Trade Unionists have you discussed this issue with?

They’re are striking over contributing to their superior pensions. Actions speak louder than words.

It is the ordinary private sector worker and not the business owner (apart from those who go bust) who are and will continue to bear the brunt of this downturn. Which is my point, you can blame the rich all you like – but they’re not the ones who will experience the pain. It is 36,000 of them who lost their jobs last month, it is ordinary workers in the private sector who are taking pay cuts and coping with pay freezes.

Comparitive salaries

Employment in Public Sector
Avg. Weekly Wage
€945.18

Source
http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/current/psempearn.pdf

Employment in manufacturing / industrial sectors
Avg. Weekly Wage
€627.24

Source
http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/current/indearn.pdf

That’s about 30% higher where in most European countries Industrial wages are higher. Recent reports put the public sector as 20% better paid on average than the private sector. Cowan earns more than Obama, the head of Irish Central Bank earns more than the head of the ECB.

—
If business costs were lower less people would lose their jobs (think electricity, rates). If wages in the public sector were lower we may have had some scope for a fiscal stimulus now.

Wages are not a good measure of the overall growth of wealth in the private sector, since they do not reflect the increased wealth of business owners.

I’d be surprised if you could show me evidence that the public sector grew more quickly than the private sector during the Celtic Tiger years.

Regardles of your rhetoric about the ‘wealthy’, the truth is ordinary private sector workers are going to sit this one out on the dole

Generally speaking, ‘the wealthy’ does not include ‘ordinary private sector workers’.

I’ve yet to see anywillingnes to share in some pain

How many Trade Unionists have you discussed this issue with?

My earliest revelation of the injustice of the welfare system came when the full time secretary of the company I worked for, a married mother who paid income tax and National Insurance as well as her own mortgage and car and who claimed not a ha’penny from the state other than her child benefit, pointed out that the single mother of three who had housing benefit, dole, free school meals, disability living allowance etc who did a few days part time work for us was bringing in twice as much income as she was.

The secretary mildly pointed out that that seemed a little unjust, I agreed with her, I still do, that’s why I queried your “fair play to her” comment.

@Greenflag

Have you noticed that Madoff, whom you seem to insist on mentioning twice a day, along with Stanford and along with those other two massive Ponzi schemes, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, were all massive contributors to the Democrat Party of the United States?

Funny that, isn’t it? Because if one listened to you one would believe that they were somehow linked to people who believed in fiscal conservatism.

Why is that?

My own (fairly unpopular opinion) is that people should be free to not work and to get a small amount of assistance from the state

So if everyone chose this option ….

Or what about if your dependency ratio (workers to supported non-workers) began to increase as your population aged?

My own (fairly unpopular opinion) is that people should be free to not work and to get a small amount of assistance from the state. In the scenario I mentioned I also firmly believe the reason a lot of the kids in my area are little more than hoods, is down to poor parenting. I think the kids that have their mother’s (and or fathers) at home with them, looking out for them and teaching them, are at a distinct advantage to those other kids who are literally bucked out the door and encouraged to become someone else’s problem.

They should not be expected to have a poor standard of living. 250 quid a week amongst the hypothetical family I mentioned is not an unreasonably large amount of money in my opinion, when the various bills are paid out.

As I mentioned I would also endorse leaving the long term unemployed to slouch about their houses for which they are entitled to enough money to stay alive, which works out at approximately 50 quid a week for food and heat. I personally choose to work as my standard of living wouldn’t survive fifty bills a week. Again I should stress that this is an opinion which would irritate some of my lefty mates…

‘ What is even worse is I hear the unions are planning industrial action over having to contribute a fraction of the cost of their defined benefit pensions. ‘

Indeed -those whom the Gods wish to destroy they first make mad

Human greed again no different in principle from Madoff , Stanford or our own Fitzpatrick and others . It’s understandable that the public service unions should be ‘cut up’ but there must be a brain or two out there amidst them that realises that they the (the public sector ) would not be able to afford bean soup if it were not for the ‘wealth ‘ i.e taxes paid by the private sector .

As Abucs said on his post on another thread this is not the time for ‘ideological ‘ politics of right versus left . This is about ‘international financial warfare ‘ and Ireland’s only weapon is our Euro membership and our international credit rating . If the Irish Government were to collapse or the country to be wracked by public service strikes it will just mean to the rest of the world that the Irish have become overnight necrophiliacs and are indulging in the age old monastic habit of digging their own albeit in this instance economic grave !

How many of those Labour voting AB1′s are well paid, protected, civil servants, or those who’s income depends on the state in some way (e.g. barristers & lawyers)?

Just as the private sector also reaped the greatest rewards when things were going well.

This is the nature of “risk” – which the private sector was so keen to embrace up until very recently.

Not true in Ireland! Thanks to benchmarking wages are 20% higher in the public sector than the private sector. Pensions are defined benefit, and index linked to pay rises, these are far more valuable than private sector defined contribution pensions. There is total job security, there are long holidays, flexi-time and paid overtime.

What it is the nature of political pressure! Regardles of your rhetoric about the ‘wealthy’, the truth is ordinary private sector workers are going to sit this one out on the dole, go bankrupt when they can’t pay their mortgage, or if they are lucky and still have a job they will pay the for the superior benefits (salary, pension, conditions, security) of public sector workers via higher taxes.

There is no real sense of togetherness from the left – I’ve yet to see anywillingnes to share in some pain so others may be spared catasrophic loss (families going bankrupt).

Now that was a very sensible post If the present world wide economic crisis worsens those of us who hope and wish for ‘democratic ‘ values to be upheld may see that wish ‘undermined ‘ The Western world may have the resources to ride out a year or two of no growth and may have enough social cohesion to stave off popular revolt but this is not true of the emerging economies in the rest of the world . If the Germans don’t bail out the Eastern europeans these countries will be drawn back into ‘Russian ‘ control and that’s just one example . The prospects for resource and ethno religious wars will increase dramatically .

All of which should remind us that whereas the ‘economy ‘ is critical it’s even more important that political power does not in these circumstances and conditions end up in the hands of single interest groups be they of the left or right .

What we have seen in over the past 20 years from the USA experience has been just that -namely the ‘control ‘ of American foreign and economic policy has been largely determined and influenced by the interests of what’s called the ‘shadow banking ‘ sector

Just as the private sector also reaped the greatest rewards when things were going well.

This is the nature of “risk” – which the private sector was so keen to embrace up until very recently.

The fact that the wealthy are in a better position to weather losses than the poor will be increasingly obvious to all, particularly those who are at risk of being impoverished by the recession.

Any government that fails to recognise this fact will get rightly hammered.

I agree. They knock, pour scorn but never suggest solutions!

Good post, which is why we need democracy and both the right and the left. The danger is though the political system can be abused to the benefit of favoured groups (e.g. bankers, developers, public sector workers).

In Ireland – an advanced economy – the vast majority work in sectors exposed to market forces, they compete globally and generate the wealth that sustains the nation. A minority of workers work in the protected sector. Unusually, by international standards a right wing government greatly increased pay conditions beyond those in the private sector for those workers during a boom. Now we have a bust, those of us in the private sector are bearing the brunt of it. It is so depressing to hear leftists in Ireland complain of having it bad – when by comparision they’ve done well and will come out of this relatively unscathed. What is even worse is I hear the unions are planning industrial action over having to contribute a fraction of the cost of their defined benefit pensions.

Why?