David McNarry and the Conservative link-up.
Just to pick up on some of David McNarry’s comments on Stormont Live on an ‘Irish Language Act’.
David McNarry : ‘Barry, if you are that fond of Ireland, you know, go sit in the Dáil’First of all, most unionists I feel would disagree with David’s implication that ‘Northern Ireland’ is not part of a geographical Ireland. One of the few things that I find many Nationalist and Unionists agree on is a distaste for the Southern State’s appropriation of the name Ireland.
Most nationalists of course find invitations such as David’s, or as it is normally put, ‘why don’t you just move down south?’ to be incidious and threatening.
However, as I stated on the other thread, I shall be writing to a number of Conservative MPs, including Mr. Cameron on this issue with respect to the Ulster Unionist link-up with the Tories (< Gael. ‘outlaws’ – quite) on the following points.
1. Is Mr McNarry’s attitude representation of Conservative Party policy?
2. Is it now the official policy of the Conservatives that Nationalists who seek language rights and / or self-determination be subject to such sentiments? Does this therefore extend to the Scottish Highlands and Wales?
I could take my comunication further but I will keep it simple as this point, I’ll let yous know how I get on. (any suggestions btw?)
UPDATE :
Glossary.
Tory (< Gael. Torach, ‘outlaw’)
McNarry (
Cameron (
Most Irish people understand that the 6 counties are in the North and it is good that school children are aware of this.
Dear Puke,
If a primary school in Kent is good enough for you then you should not denigrate the good scholars of Ballymena for using the same facility. All that your other sources confirm is that there is no legal or political definition of “The British Isles”.
None of which sheds much light on your opinion reagrding McNarry’s suggestion that people he does not agree with should move.
Gael gan Náire,
Here are your answers as best I understand them so far. I’m talking as a tory who is not an official
1. He clearly does not talk our language. He is an electoral liability -agreed. However, so were people like Tony Ben when Blair took over. Somehow, they managed to get the lunatic fringe to shut up. As somebody rightfully pointed out, you have them in every party. We have Sir Nicholas Winterton who is spiritually a DUP man but he is a complete loner.
2. There needs to be a distinction between the Irish Language and the promotion of other aspects of Irish Culture. Conservatives try to look at the issue from a practical Northern-Ireland centred point of view. We are not against anybody’s culture.
As far as I am aware, most of our members are against an Irish Language Act (just as much as Ulster Scots) as a matter of principal but will probably run with a watered down one to comply with the St. Andrews Agreement. There is no way that an Irish Language Act, in the form drafted by the SDLP can ever be acceptable. It is impractical. I believe those proposals will be shot down as they stand.
We further say that the best way to promote the Irish Language is not to have any legislation at all. Remember, there are a large number of people in the Republic who hate the Irish language.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/xenophobic-irish-lovers-a-turnoff-in-any-language-1346150.html
Why do you think that is? It is because it is rammed down their throats? The argument is even stronger in relation to the North.
I think that people (particularly those of the Irish identity) need to re-examine the way they feel about the Irish Language and be honest with themselves. Do they take the evidence seriously or not? Is this about promotion of the language or is it about political point-scoring? My suspicion is that it is more of the latter than the former.
You mentioned Scotland and Wales. With respect, comparing both of these jurisdictions is not comparing like with like. In Northern Ireland, you have a large section of the population which is against the Irish Language Act. What do you think is going to happen to a road sign in Irish? “please vandalise me” might as well be written on it (compare the recent vandalism of post boxes). It is a recipe for trouble. In my opinion, you really would be opening a “can of worms”. Do we want that kind of trouble?
As for other aspects of Irish culture, I personally have no problem with that. I personally go to Gaelic matches and enjoy them (supporting Fermanagh particularly). I enjoy the craic!
Hope this is helpful. As I say, I dont speak for the Con party but I know how most of them feel. I think you will find that Jeffrey Peel will say similarly to what I have said.
As I understand it, we do not yet have an official policy on the Irish Language Act.
SM,
The case against having road signs in Irish, in Ireland, is that Unionists might vandalise them? It’s hard to decide whether Unionists or Nationalists will be more offended by that line of reasoning. Sounds like you are making a case for getting rid of red post boxes because they attract vandals – but that can’t be right! Are laws to be made by vandals under the UUP/Tory axis?
Seymour
“Remember, there are a large number of people in the Republic who hate the Irish language.”
The word ‘hate’ gives the game away. As you shown in your example, many people cannot tolerate the idea of equality with a minority. Sad but true.
“My suspicion is that it is more of the latter than the former.”
I understand that as a prejudice. I am confident that with time it will fade.
Tyrone,
The Road sign point that have made is entirely valid and can not be argued away by the comment that you just made. I am sure that there are others who would have similar concerns about likely vanadlism.
ggn,
I take exception to your remarks “gives the game away”. You think you are a mind reader. You are way off the pace. Those are not my words. Read the article properly and then try to advance a counter-argument to it if you want to be taken seriously. There are more articles on the net about that subject which support the evidence. I am sure you will be able to find them if you look for them
SM,
Many people in the South hate the Irish language? Of course.
So what? I believe that North and South that Irish speakers are entitled to equality. Others dont.
The article in question is written by someone who in incensed that a native Irish speaker in an Irish speaking area has the audacity to request the services in Irish as they are entitled to under the law and constition.
Frankly, that is the authors problem. As you have described it – ‘hate’.
I fail to see the relevance. I do not believe that linguistic policy should be driven by hate, not the threat of vandalism.
One counter argues with arguement, not bile.
You might fail to see the relevance. I dont. If you want to promote something, that is one thing. If you want to promote a law, you take into account the whole of society.
So it is really “equality” that is the aim, rather than promotion of the language.
Whether you like to admit it or not, Irish is not equal to English and never will be. If you want to prove me wrong, go and set up an Irish blog site similar to this and see how many participants you get. The arguments for putting Irish on a statute book as an official languange are twisted and purely political. They have no merit.
I have absolutely no difficulty with people speaking Irish or writing irish anywhere or at any time but there is no merit in making what is practically a dead language a co-official language of parliament or the courts.
I foresee a lot of mischief-making if Irish was allowed to be used in the courts with Lawyers having to cross-examine in Irish and bringing in a translator just so that a person who obviously speaks English can have his political vanity satisfied.
In my view, neither you nor anybody else that I know have advanced a case for making Irish an official language.
It is a pity that those who love the Irish language are going to have their views hijacked by those who want to retain it as a political symbol.
You wont find me reading or commenting on this thread again.
SM,
“If you want to promote a law, you take into account the whole of society”
Actually no. You seek a majority in a legislature. The legislature in question is Westminister.
“So it is really “equality” that is the aim, rather than promotion of the language”
No one has ever claimed differently.
“practically a dead language”
Obviously that fact would be disputed by linguists.
“foresee a lot of mischief-making if Irish was allowed to be used in the courts”
It is stange that you use the word ‘mischief’ as that word was also used in the Act which banned the use of Irish in the courts despite the fact that the majority of people use no other.
“It is a pity that those who love the Irish language are going to have their views hijacked by those who want to retain it as a political symbol.”
How one’s ‘views’ can be hijacked is beyond me. The fact is that the Irish language community is behind the campaign for an ILA.
I know of one Irish speaker who is opposed.
Chuck – I was quite impressed by the Kent kids’ efforts honestly. Very perceptive. No sarcasm.