David McNarry and the Conservative link-up.
Just to pick up on some of David McNarry’s comments on Stormont Live on an ‘Irish Language Act’.
David McNarry : ‘Barry, if you are that fond of Ireland, you know, go sit in the Dáil’First of all, most unionists I feel would disagree with David’s implication that ‘Northern Ireland’ is not part of a geographical Ireland. One of the few things that I find many Nationalist and Unionists agree on is a distaste for the Southern State’s appropriation of the name Ireland.
Most nationalists of course find invitations such as David’s, or as it is normally put, ‘why don’t you just move down south?’ to be incidious and threatening.
However, as I stated on the other thread, I shall be writing to a number of Conservative MPs, including Mr. Cameron on this issue with respect to the Ulster Unionist link-up with the Tories (< Gael. ‘outlaws’ – quite) on the following points.
1. Is Mr McNarry’s attitude representation of Conservative Party policy?
2. Is it now the official policy of the Conservatives that Nationalists who seek language rights and / or self-determination be subject to such sentiments? Does this therefore extend to the Scottish Highlands and Wales?
I could take my comunication further but I will keep it simple as this point, I’ll let yous know how I get on. (any suggestions btw?)
UPDATE :
Glossary.
Tory (< Gael. Torach, ‘outlaw’)
McNarry (
Cameron (
Quite a pity that the Conservative Party leader’s surname wasn’t translated literally…ditto that with the Culture Minister.
Perhaps start with Paterson GgN
Gael
Ver prescient post. Every time some UUP person says something, well vaguely Protestant (what McNarry says doesn’t fall in to that category, it’s just offesive), it will embarrass the Tories, whereas any time the Tories such as Mr. Peel say anything vaguely anti-Protestant it will embarass the UUP. Lose-lose methinks.
Even by McNarry’s deplorably low standards that it is a howler.
Every party’s got at least one mind you.
Clearly Barry wants all Irish language enthusiasts to move south – echoes of Bombay Street and all that.
Poor Mr Cameron, lie down with dogs and you’ll pick up fleas.
Quite bloody hilarious if you ask me …
Mr McElduff sometimes tries to be more Irish than the Irish
Can the Northern Ireland Assembly’s Committee on Standards and Privileges get itself involved or does it first need a written invitation?
It’s worrying that elected politicians feel they can still get away with that type of incendiary language after all the suffering of the last 40 years.
Your lordship,
“Mr McElduff sometimes tries to be more Irish than the Irish”
Actually, according to the GFA, Mr McElduff entitled to be Irish.
In addition, I strongly suspect that he is the owner of an ‘Irish’ passport.
Unfortunately this gentleman is past his best and has become a ‘grumpy old man’, with not much of interest to say and what he does say comes out all wrong.
He equates boorishness with appearing hard line and instead sounds like Statler or Waldorf.
That interview was Northern Ireland ‘politics’ at its worst.
Actually, according to the GFA, Mr McElduff entitled to be Irish.
McElduff was, is, and will remain Irish, irrespective of the GFA.
David McNarry would make a great Mayor of London
“why don’t you just move down south?”
Is Mc Narry related to Dr Karadzic? No-one will be moving anywhere David. If you don’t like fenians living in “OWC” then tough. Strange that isn’t it? Calling someone Irish who is from the Island of Ireland. What I find stranger is that Mc Narry would describe himself as British, yet he wasn’t born on the Island of Britain. Its like an Australian calling himself Saudi Arabian. What a weird guy.
The plural use of the word isles would be grossly unfair at this juncture. As is any discussion of the value and Epistemology of words and phrases like ‘Scot’, ‘Briton’ and most especially ‘British Empire’. No one dare mention the difference between national and anthropological identification let alone that between personal and geographical, or the fact that Barry’s identity is Irish only by his belief that it is so, that to insist on the point as absolute is Fascist, or that he is a born and bred patriot of the British Isles. (oops). They’ll think your talking down to the Napoleonic Partisans.
Partial parties may kid themselves that McNarry’s xenophobic outburst is not reflected in the character of his colleagues across the hall or even beside him, I think an honest mind would admit that McNarry’s only distinction is to be dumb enough to say (in confusion) what the rest are thinking (or rather, feeling in spirit), and in the case of his Sinn Fein colleagues, those imaginings probably have more stimulus towards the vivid.
McNarry needs to grow a brain, to denounce him as an Xenophobic Maniac in the context of our society is palpably cynical.
He should, however, given the high standard set recently by the Conservative and Unionist Party of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (I couldn’t resist), be sacked for his outburst.
Is this the same David Mc Narry who warned that he may have led an Orange Order parade up the Falls to Andersonstown during the Drumcree debacle?
David gae yer heed a shek.
Comber has a good reputation dont ruin it through verbal diarrhoea
The Unionist community are notorious for their lousy PR and get enough bad publicity as it is. With representatives like Mc Narry it is no wonder they get so little sympathy for their cause from their fellow Britons. To the impartial observer Mc Narry came across in this debate as churlish, bigoted and ‘staunch’, while Mc Elduff seemed amiable, enlightened and well-mannered. Mc Elduff’s tolerant comments on Ulster-Scots made him sound positively tolerant (and even charming) compared to Mc Narry, who was negative and resentful in contrast.
David McNarry : [i]‘Barry, if you are that fond of Ireland, you know, go sit in the Dáil’[/i]
Classic!
[i]Quite bloody hilarious if you ask me …
Mr McElduff sometimes tries to be more Irish than the Irish “[/i]
Too right Lord Metcalfe. Green lamposts for God’s sake, LOL.
[i]Strange that isn’t it? Calling someone Irish who is from the Island of Ireland. What I find stranger is that Mc Narry would describe himself as British, yet he wasn’t born on the Island of Britain.”[/i]
What type of Quagmire are you trying to describe?
If the people living on the island of Ireland are all Irish, then the people living in the British Isles are all British, including McElduff?
And for the equivalents, don’t go mentioning the the function of prefixes like Northern.
It was a classic alright, but then with the IRA governing over you, and public bodies free to insult our dead and suggest our policemen and soldiers were no better than scum, as the fruits of your labours, is ‘classic’ what you should be going for ?
If the people living on the island of Ireland are all Irish, then the people living in the British Isles are all British, including McElduff?
Posted by Ulsters my homeland on Feb 03, 2009 @ 04:49 PM
I didn’t say living on the Island , I said someone from or born on a particular Island. Big difference mo chara. As for the second point, the British Isles are a reference to the Island of Britain, Channel Islands, Hebrides etc and not Ireland. When Ireland is included, these Islands collectively are referred to as the North-West European Archipelago, just as the British Lions are now referred to as the British and Irish Lions. Britain is a completely separate entity from Ireland.
“[i]I didn’t say living on the Island , I said someone from or born on a particular Island. Big difference mo chara.”[/i]
Since when did the inhabitant of an island have to accept his identity is directly related to the name of the island?
“[i]As for the second point, the British Isles are a reference to the Island of Britain, Channel Islands, Hebrides etc and not Ireland.”[/i]
Little wonder you call your username Quagmire, since you can’t understand basic geography.
encyclopedia britanica :
“British Isles
islands, Europe
Main
group of islands off the northwestern coast of Europe. The group consists of two main islands, Great Britain and Ireland, and numerous smaller islands”
Gigitygoo –
if your going for off the cuff dismissal, make sure your not dismissing what’s right with nonsense, as it makes you appear foolish. The title British and Mexican lions denotes only the political chauvinism of certain peoples identities (as did the insistence Irish should not be attached), not their geographic local or cultural heritage (establishing which ethnic and religious groups are due credit for such in Ireland would only upset you)
as for the rest of the conversation I don’t understand a word.
I note you got your definition from the encyclopedia “BRITANICA”. No bias there then I suppose.
“Little wonder you call your username Quagmire, since you can’t understand basic geography.”
Posted by Ulsters my homeland on Feb 03, 2009 @ 05:18 PM
Basic geography? That depends where you are in the world. Geography books used to educate children in the 26 counties do not use the term “British Isles” when referring to these Islands and besides I won’t take geography lessons from the likes of you. You call yourself Ulsters my homeland and you don’t even know how many counties are in Ulster. Can’t wait for your revisionist response.
GGN, Fair play.
Only suggestion would be dont say the Scottish Highlands. Scottish is the heritage of all of Scotland. Lets not contribute to the artificial dividing of Scotland’s cultural legacy. What about a young child learning Scottish in Glasgow. Their language or the language of the highlands.
“[i]Basic geography? That depends where you are in the world. Geography books used to educate children in the 26 counties do not use the term “British Isles†when referring to these Islands.”[/i]
It’s a shame you didn’t get a good standard of education in the south. Hopefully things will get better for pupils down there.
Setting aside that this entire thread has taken man-playing to a new level, I nearly fell off my seat laughing at “North-West European Archipelago”
Perhaps the croppies lay down as that was the only way they could manage their massive inferiority complex?
It’s a shame you didn’t get a good standard of education in the south. Hopefully things will get better for pupils down there.
The education system in the south and the republican electorate in the north have provided you with your education minister.
“[i]I won’t take geography lessons from the likes of you. You call yourself Ulsters my homeland and you don’t even know how many counties are in Ulster. Can’t wait for your revisionist response.2[/i]
Quagmire, initially I wasn’t going to respond to this part, but I feel I should let everyone know what my views are on Ulster (for approx the 5th time on this forum and it would seem you have short memory retention, since I remember you bringing it up before)
IMHO, It’s all about the people, if people from Sligo and Leitrim want to be known as Ulstermen/woman who am I to deny them that right.
But you and many like you seem to think identity is related to the island and this is set in stone, just as you suggested when you referred to everyone on the island of Ireland as Irish. But when we ask about a group of islands, according to you this island/identity doesn’t incorporate a group of islands, as in the case of the British Isles, etc.
IMHO, what you are suggesting is just as silly as suggesting everyone in the British Isles has to be British.
We should officially rename the island, any suggestions as to what it may be called?
Classical names, medieval, dare I mention something modern?
It would appear that after the 1916 rising that in international documents, the British Isles includes Great Britain, N.Ireland, the channel islands and the isle of man.
http://tinyurl.com/b5w7nm
I suspect this is why the Conservatives didnt push for a merger with the UUP. McNarry is Reg’s problem not Camerons!
It’s a shame you didn’t get a good standard of education in the south. Hopefully things will get better for pupils down there.
Posted by Ulsters my homeland on Feb 03, 2009 @ 06:12 PM
I’m not from the 26 county state, if that’s what you mean by the term “south”. Someone from Malin in Co. Donegal would consider the whole 6 counties as “south” (and I need a geography lesson?). I was educated entirely in this part of Ireland i.e. 6 counties, and I, like yourself, am also an Ulster man. I went to La Salle Boys’ Secondary School in West Belfast from 1994 – 2001 and then to UUC and UUJ respectively. I now have BA Hons and MSC after my name. If you want to talk about standards of education, take a look at your own community first before you point the finger at others. In 10-15 years time all the top jobs in “our wee country” will be run by fenians with a nationalist agenda while our unionist brethren will still be painting kerb stones, burning tyres, drinking their blue WKD as they reminisce about the good oul days when fenians knew their place and of jobs for the boys in the ship yard.
cut the bull: The education system in the south and the republican electorate in the north have provided you with your education minister.
That leaves us with a dilemma, then -
Do we ask you whether you are impressed with Ruane’s capabilities?
Or do we ask you why you think she chose the education system in the north to educate her own offspring?
#
It’s a shame you didn’t get a good standard of education in the south. Hopefully things will get better for pupils down there.
The education system in the south and the republican electorate in the north have provided you with your education minister.
Posted by cut the bull on Feb 03, 2009 @ 06:47 PM
Doesnt say much for southern education. They should have academic selection.
Quagmire
What have you done with your collection of academic silverware — a ‘top job’ at least? But not one financed by HMG naturally.
It might leave you with a dilemma but I’m sound
I couldnt say I’m impressed by any politicains capabilities up in Stormont as it is a crazy form of government with mandatory coalition, triple lock veto and no opposition.
Politicians from all parties are prevented from showing any capability by a multitude of obstructions which are part and parcel of that system of government.
I think you would be as well asking her why she decided to have her children educated in the north. Maybe she had prior knowledge that as their Mummy she was going to be the Minister for Education.
“Quagmire
What have you done with your collection of academic silverware—a ‘top job’ at least? But not one financed by HMG naturally.”
Posted by Glencoppagagh on Feb 03, 2009 @ 10:47 PM
Now now, that would be telling.
What an embarrassment this man is!
Despite his detractors, I think Reg Empey has made some sound moves for his party – and I speak as a moderate Nationalist.
It’s blindingly obvious that the DUP are Ulster Nationalists as opposed to Unionists who are far more interested in preserving their own lucrative positions of power than in preserving the Union.
At least the link up with the Tories is a genuine attempt to involve the people in the North in genuine UK wide politics instead of the same old parochial roundabout.
Also, albeit a bit late in the day, the separation of the UUP + the Orange Order is a step in the right direction.
I don’t think they’ll get a lot of Catholic votes but it’s a start and they will certainly pick up some.
Then in steams McNarry and puts his feet right in it. The vast majority of (moderate) Nationalists that I know would find both his remarks and his tone offensive.
In conjunction with his behavior in the past (especially as regards the Orange Order as someone alluded to earlier), he is totally undoing any progress that Empey is making.
Reg needs to either rein this guy in or cut him loose. With him around, for every small step forward that the UUP make, he’ll earn them a bigger step backwards.
GOM,
The term “British Isles” in these documents denotes a national entity, not a geographic one, it is a convenient term for treaties, wherein a special definition is attached almost as if they were trying to avoid confusion with the geographic term.
Quag,
The British isles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles
http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/questions/britain/britishisles.htm
http://www.geograph.org.uk/
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&q=british isles&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl
Shall we go on ? The accurate use of the term British Isles is disputed by those of a chauvinistic disposition in Ireland, leading to acquiescence by some sectors of business and approval by anti-British political groups. That this position is illiterate, unscientific and boorish should surely be apparent to a highly educated and clearly refined man like yourself, political ambition or insistence on the part of the inhabitants of an area does not effect the topographic, geographic and anthropological reality that these are the British Isles and we are the Britons. You can claim the good authority of the Southern State in defence of your position, a state that gave you a fake racial identity and a synthetic cultural identity is a poor standard holder for the assurance. Again I would appeal to your educated mentality and urge you to reflect upon the assertion that geographic terms do not impact on your identity or the name of your state unless you like it, it can coincide if it is pleasing to you, but in accepting that you are a patriot of the British Isles, you do not imply in any way that your a British Patriot. so relax. And call yourself, your community and your state whatever you like.
Reality, of course, reserves the same privilege.
Thank you also for listing your wonderful achievements, the value of you degrees and your enlightened sentiments in argument compliment each other perfectly, I hope you have all your nice certificates framed.
Also, although I laugh at the mistaken assumptions regarding the value of fine resistance songs like Croppy Lay Down, the position of those assumptions, that “peasant lay down” is a horrible expression of pure boorishness is quite correct, but like all things moral it expression is generally subjective and policy is often contrary;
“In 10-15 years time all the top jobs in “our wee country†will be run by fenians with a nationalist agenda while our unionist brethren will still be painting kerb stones, burning tyres, drinking their blue WKD”
one can only attribute the negative sentiment to this famous song falsely, whilst the actual proclamation of such sentiments by Nationalists, alongside contrary moral expressions, is a regular occurrence. That one condemns others for things proves awareness that these things are wrong, when the actual circumstance is that one is actually responsible for just that, what does your educated mind feel this implies ?
billy boke,
Woodlands Junior School (Kent, England, Europe, The World) is undoubtedly an excellent institution but it doesn’t claim to trump the United Nations.
As to the rest of your post – Huh?
Mind you Up Tyrone! those Kent kids are on to something – Why does England dominate the UK?
Up Tyrone,
I’m surprised you didn’t get the joke.
As you say though, “huh?”.
As for the suggestion of any discrepancy, or its favourable resolution, between Woodlands Juniors and the United Nations, where did you read this? I think it was a “huh?” moment again….. read my tentative explanation of why GOM’s point on UN treaty language was spurious. If you don’t understand something, it’s either ’cause its nonsense or you lack sense, either way say nothing is the best advise.
but by gosh, your right ! There is a small error in language in the last sentence. The phrase “one is actually responsible for just that” should read “one is actually responsible for just such things” – if this prevented you from understanding the statement, I apologise.
Dewi,
do you think adopting such a curt style with regard to English children learning their English heritage being a valid platform to illustrate facts about Islands,that as the kids can admit, holds the preponderance on these Islands, was the best way to proceed with a response to an accusation of mindless nationalist chauvinism ? That you are moved to comment by the recitation of quantitative and historical facts, by children, further embellishes my accusation.
sorry the last post was posted whilst being composed, as such please read the non jibbersih version -
Dewi,
do you think adopting such a curt style was the best way to proceed with a response to an accusation of mindless Irish Nationalist chauvinism ?
that you were moved to comment, not by the trueness or falseness of the assertion the source illustrated, but regarding English children learning about England’s geography and demography, which, as the kids can admit, holds the preponderance on these Islands is revealing as to your disposition towards boorish Irish Nationalism. That you are moved to comment by the recitation of quantitative and historical facts, by children, further embellishes my accusation of general and mindless (or rather, unreasonable) boorishness.
The Kent school kids are full of useful information, it’s no wonder people from all over Ballymena use it as a primary reference source. For instance – “Both Wales and Scotland land have their own languages but English is spoken in both countries more.” Put that in your pipe and smoke it. No mention of Ulster Scots even though it was invented not long after they were born.
Billy Bloke
Maybe you could use your not inconsiderable editorial skills to make some sense of harry-projectile-chuck’s efforts. They seem to be on your wavelength.
All a long way from McNarry’s OWC rant…sigh.
“We should officially rename the island, any suggestions as to what it may be called?”
I would be happy for OWC to be renamed “Nornia”
Indeed they are up Tyrone!,
Which is why I thought their accessible and concise information might do the trick where a paramount encyclopaedia, Google Maps, and the ever dependable Wikipedia had failed to convince, as you say – get people on their own level.
Your denigrative and random comments on Ballymena clear nullify my suggestion that Irish Nationalism is crude and nasty.
Regarding McNarry, the boorishness parallels with the general disposition of Irish Nationalism surely occur to you up Tyrone!, surely. But then given your professed incomprehension of easy to follow, clearly spelt out posts and the fact that you confirm the explicit accusations therein, almost immediately, in your contrite commentary, maybe not.
The old chestnut about what is in a name is a bug bare now that I have heard the Minister of Education refer to Northern Ireland as the North of Ireland. Surely the Minister in a devolved legislature of the UK Parliament cannot use the Constitutional name of another Sovereign Nation in her role to promote what will affect all children in Northern Ireland.