“I think preference should be given to people from Northern Ireland..”
Previously Sinn Féin argued that some migrant workers were the wrong sort of Catholics for the purposes of monitoring workforce equality. Now the DUP’s Sammy Wilson, MP, MLA, Northern Ireland Environment Minister, is arguing that they should be discriminated against in favour of “people from Northern Ireland.” Below the fold his party colleague, Jeffrey Donaldson, MP, MLA, NI junior Minister, chips in to claim that “I think Sammy has a fair point.. we’re not talking about discrimination, we’re talking about economic reality.” Except that, as Kevin Sharkey notes at the end of this clip – his full report on the NI economy is here – the Equality Commission has pointed out that discrimination on the basis of race or nationality is unlawful. And doesn’t the NI junior Minister’s brief cover equality issues? Or is that the wrong sort of equality.. Of course within the EU freedom of movement of goods, persons [including workers], services, and capital are fundamental to the common market. Or, as the European Commission website puts it, “Every citizen of the EU has the right to work and live in another Member State without being discriminated against on grounds of nationality.”
NI junior Minister, the DUP’s Jeffrey Donaldson, backs his party colleague, Sammy Wilson.
SF are constantly assuming that Catholics want to be part of their parish view, and increasingly we just don’t.
A Catholic is a Catholic, 10 Poles in the PSNI counts as 10 Catholics.
Not quite. Article 39 (4) EC allows a state to prefer its own citizens to EU citizens (i.e. to discriminate on grounds of nationality) in relation to public sector employment. In regard to the “specific functions of the State and similar bodies such as the armed forces, the police or other forces of the maintenance of order, the judiciary, the tax authorities and the diplomatic corps.”
At any rate, perhaps folks will now begin to grasp the negative consequences of conceding sovereignty to the EU.
“A Catholic is a Catholic, 10 Poles in the PSNI counts as 10 Catholics.”
Except that Patten was quite specific in conflating Catholic with Nationalist and Unionist with Protestant. Clearly, a Polish catholic is not the same as a member of the Irish nationalist community, and therefore breaches the requirement of the Patten report that the police should be representative of the community it serves.
I suspect now that things have gone tits-up we’ll be hearing a lot more of this kind of talk. Kristallnacht here we come!
BTW Pete, the comparison with SF on the policing issue was totally spurious. Employing mercenaries will not establish trust in the police in places where it is most lacking. But I suspect you knew that.
Dave
So why shouldn’t PSNI be representative of Poles and Chinese too? On your analysis, Southerners would also have to be excluded to as they do not form part of the NI community? And by definition if we adopted your line it would be even more discriminatory towards Protestants than it is now by forcing them to accept all ‘foreign’ candidates out of their quota. That too would then breach Patten.
And what are you going to do to actually enforce this? Should we adopt the Pass Brook system so beloved of South Africa or perhaps we could classify everyone on racial and community lines in the UK national ID card. I think the Germans once did that sort of thing.
Someone also once told me that under ECHR everyone has the right to self definition ie if I choose to classify myself as Protestant or Catholic or Jewish it is unlawful for the state to challenge that. I am what I believe I am.
The truth is Patten was flawed. It made no allowance for any of these things or for children from mixed marriages (who should also come out of the Protestant quota as they are not pure ayrian stock). Why, some of them might even have claimed to be catholic because one of their parents was and they were brought up in that faith. The naughty things. It might even have got them into the Police when otherwise they would have been rejected.
Crazy, mixed up old world isn’t it.
Employing mercenaries will not establish trust in the police in places where it is most lacking. ”
So only Catholic trust matters?
Sorry ‘nationalist catholic trust’?
Or should it be ‘republican catholic trust’?
Just where do you stop on this? And who has the right to classify us all as one of ‘them-uns’ or ‘ours-uns’
oh yes Picador, and forgive me but don’t you think that calling Poles who move here for a new life and join the police’mercenaries’ is, well, a little Racist in your assessment of the rights and motivations of other EU Citizens who may just want a job and to serve the community?
Pic, discrimination on the basis of nationality is at the core of the EU project, so there is no supranational pseudo-moral basis for its complaint. It is purely self-serving, regarding the citizens of member states as being the citizens of the engineered state of Europa (as stated in the Treaty of Rome) and regarding 98% of the world’s population who are not citizens of Europa as foreigners who are to be kept out of Fortress Europa by consolidated EU borders.
Cynic, Poles are foreign nationals. There is no obligation under EU law to employ them in the public sector of policing, and solid reasons why a state should not do so. If, however, they become British nationals, then why not employ them in porportion to the percentage of the Polish population in NI who are also British nationals? Indeed, if you excluded them, how could you comply with the requirement of the Patten Report that the police should be representative of the community it serves?
91%* rather
The shinners haven’t much left to impress us with. Maybe They’ll sell us the GPO in Christmas wrapping paper
As the economic crisis hits xenophobia will rise, here, throughout the rest of Britain and Ireland and throughout the world. It’s essential that proto-Brownshirt remarks like these are recorded. There will be many more of them before the crisis ends.
This could have been an important thread, Pete. Such a pity you had to preface the detail of the Minister’s remarks with a cheap, irrelevant attack on Sinn Féin. Perhaps you are as narrow-minded as Sammy.
I can’t get over the bare-faced cheek of Sammy in what could be viewed as a nakedly racist pose on his part(s).
He has a chek going on about the length of poles in the job queues.
Would Sammy strip the labour market of undesirables? Does a bear strip in the woods?
Sorry, I’llget me coat on the way out..
Membership of the EU allows for the freedom of movement of peoples, goods, monies and services. What Sammy has suggested is nothing less than xenophobic clap trap. The DUP are nothing but a bunch of bigots with a retarded 17th Century view of reality. The south is run by Rome, the earth is flat and global warming is an old wives tale. Now, where do I put my “x”?
‘He (Wilson) said it made sense to give PREFERENCE to people “with roots here”.
By endorsing giving preference to people ‘with roots here’, whatever the fuck that means, Sammy is encouraging employers to discriminate on the basis of race and nationality. Such discrimination as practiced by employers or service providers is against the law. End of story.
As we all know the public sector is the largest employer in norn ironland. is the minister implicitly suggesting that recruitment in the public sector should give preference to the,uh, natives? Why stop there? Why not give preferential access to healthcare and education to the natives?
… Does Sammy have the ministerial perogative to ensure that all us pesky ferinors sit at the back of the bus?
Any bets on what the Equality commission does with this one? answers on a postcard please. a blank card will be taken as a valid and meaningful response.
‘The south is run by Rome, the earth is flat and global warming is an old wives tale’
2 out of 3 isn’t bad!
I do not agree with Sammy Wilson for the simple reason that in a meritocratic economy, the BEST candidate should get the job, and in that regard David Ford is correct in what he says.
Why would an NI employer settle for a third rate local when there is a better candidate available who is non-local?
Of course this then raises the sheer immorality of those who support the religious discrimination against anyone not a Roman Catholic if they seek a career in the PSNI. In this case, taking a third rate candidate is not only lawful but seems to meet with the support from certain people who now whinge when Sammy seeks de facto, if not de jure, discrimination?
Of course were we blessed by not being the EU, employers could indeed support the local workforce. But hey, we’re all Europeans now…
David,
It appears to me that you are trying to have it both ways.
Just like to point out that saying that something is against the law is not a political argument against it. After all, the current recruitment policy of the PSNI would be against the law but for the fact that a specific law was expressly created to make it not so.
theres an easy solution, let us leave Europe, retreat behind our own borders and send all non-UK nationals, those who are classed as economic migrants, back to their home of origin within Europe.
Note that Sammy specifies people from ‘Northern Ireland’. Does this mean English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish people from the Republic should also be subject to Sammy’s proscription? Does he think these countries should reciprocate by discriminating against Northern Ireland folk?
Wow, what a gift to all pro-Europe candidates in the forthcoming European Parliament election. Wilson himself said that most foreign nationals are returning to their homelands, in the face of economic downturn, and a la the free movement of peoples in an enlarged Europe. This itself should better position NI “natives” for the recovery. Why then snatch defeat by getting xenophobic (or hyper-nationalist)?
Personally, as a mortgage-holding, full-time working immigrant myself, when would Wilson deem me worthy of a job? I’m a proud devolutionist, but not this “little Ulster” thinking; Mr Ulster is for an outward-looking Northern Ireland!
Ditto – as another economic migrant – from England – it seems as if myself, or my US born wife, are not welcome in Sammy’s ethnically pure Ulster.
Sammy purports to support the Union, yet seems to exclude the vast majority of its peoples.
“Why would an NI employer settle for a third rate local when there is a better candidate available who is non-local?”
Here here
Sammy purports to support the Union, yet seems to exclude the vast majority of its peoples.
Don’t mind Sammy. He is only here on holiday
dosser
Are you suggesting that the DUP’s finest intellectual has not thought his argument through?
Think on this….
If England had not invaded and run India for 200 years would we have English speaking call centres in Bangalore?
The problem Sammy has is that many non-natives can express themselves better in English than native Ulsterpersons.
Veritas,
You misrepresent the case against withdrawal from the EU. Then again, when I look at the credit rating now given to EU nations like Spain, Italy and Greece (and Ireland next) you may find that some of them leave us….
Local jobs for local people makes perfect sense. Lets set aside the issue of European law (no ever asked me if I actually wanted to be a ‘European Citizen’). The harsh reality is this: People from this country are loosing their jobs, in an increasingly shaky economy. Its simply NOT FAIR that local people should have to compete with foreign nationals who have no interest in this country beyond their own economic reasons. Its all very well for most of the employed bloggers here on Slugger, but just wait until the recession really bites then all that all that good will towards those fellow EU citizens will go right out the window. I also really understand the contempt for local people displayed in most of the above posts. If you dont like it here, do us a favor and kindly fuck off.
picador
We’ll just have to agree to disagree about what’s ‘irrelevant’ to the topic.
“mercenaries”, indeed.
You know I don’t think Sammy is being a bigot or racist, he’s addressing a concern about local jobs in recession. But I do think he is wrong. An employer will always go for the candidate that is best for the job and if it means picking someone who’s not from Northern Ireland shouldn’t that be the case? And there are plenty of migrants in Northern Ireland that aren’t just doing menial jobs. They work in bank, law firms, hospitals etc. We’ve got to be careful that we’re not suggesting that a migrant will always be picked over a Northern Irish person. That isn’t true. Let’s not hand the BNP and Combat 18 another recruiting method.
We’ve got to be careful that we’re not suggesting that a migrant will always be picked over a Northern Irish person.
Posted by Sarah on Jan 26, 2009 @ 12:52 AM
A Northern Irish person? What does that mean? Is someone from the Republic considered foreign also? I was born, raised and live in Belfast and hold the same passport and citizenship as anyone from Cork, Dublin, Galway etc. What does that make me? I’m certainly not Northern Irish, whatever that means.
“Except that Patten was quite specific in conflating Catholic with Nationalist and Unionist with Protestant. Clearly, a Polish catholic is not the same as a member of the Irish nationalist community,”
To a Catholic a Pole is just as good, was my point, my only point, a Catholic point, lets not get too surreal.
“Cynic, Poles are foreign nationals. There is no obligation under EU law to employ them in the public sector of policing, and solid reasons why a state should not do so. ”
Like when the Luftwaffe could hear the Polish chatter on the radio in 1940,
and were wondering how many more they’d have to shoot down before the RAF ran dry on foreign nationals.
Pete,
Wilson’s comments deserve serious discussion.
Unfortunately the first ten comments on this thread related to the tired old discussion about 50/50 policing.
Wilson’s comments are not compatible with the UK’s membership of the EU (which has given a lot of money to NI down the years). If he was a member of a proper government (as opposed to a Mickey Mouse one) he would have to resign. He is using the language of the BNP.
@Greg
“Like when the Luftwaffe could hear the Polish chatter on the radio in 1940,
and were wondering how many more they’d have to shoot down before the RAF ran dry on foreign nationals.”
[i]“Stop all that Polish chitter chatter!”
“Repeat please”
“I said vector one zero…”
“Repeat please”
Roar of Merlin engines as madcap Poles sweep down in their beautiful Spitfires to exact sweet revenge on the Hun over the green and pleasant English countryside.[/i]
My favourite scene from that movie.
@picador
“If he was a member of a proper government (as opposed to a Mickey Mouse one) he would have to resign.”
Once again we see the opponents of free speech in action; I don’t like what you say so I’m going to shut you up.
You or I may not agree with Wilson but here’s the thing, he’s perfectly entitled to hold his opinions and as an elected representative should be free to express them in public, he is not committing a crime and if people feel he is wrong no doubt they will not vote for him in the coming election.
Are there any other opinions that you would like to ban picador?
This guy Sammy Wilson obviously does not know what he is talking about.
BNP stuff.
“Citizens of Northern Ireland” – what does that even mean?
Will be interesting to see if the DUP select a pro-european candidate, how can a high ranking party official (?) make such remarks so close to a european election? and then be backed up by another high ranking party official (Donaldson). I presume these guys are pro-British anti European.
He should at least appraise himself of European law before he goes rambling on like an opinionated fool.
I also heard his comments about the environment, I wouldn’t elect this guy to the local school board never mind government.
I see Sammy Wilson is going all 1930s on us. Matched only by Iris who doesn’t want to treat gays fairly, is it any wonder why employers and bank managers don’t want to meet these idiots at the assembly.
What about Poles who have families here and own their homes locked in with a UK-mortgage? Are we to preference them compared with locals who rent off housing benefit, or just plain rent with no young family or such ties?
How does he suggest employers should figure this out, any clues there Sammy?
Once again pandering to the sectarian elements which will be lapped up by those types renting off housing benefit, playing on the grievances of unemployment.
Nice one. I shall await the Alliance Party’s charge against this and a campaign, perhaps with the SDLP to close ranks on this, but am I best not to hold my breath? After all there’s no votes to be had over Europe, so lets just let it alone. Let us let those alone who decry it, even though its economic stability has helped not just EU nationals, but nicely propped up those mouth pieces like Jim Allister (who runs his local campaigns off his EU website no doubt funded by his EU monies!).
I will expect all those running for the EU elections to hand a good deal of it back to charities or what not. But I’ll not hold my breath.
@DC Alliance Party’s press statement
‘I think Sammy has a fair point.. we’re not talking about discrimination, we’re talking about economic reality.”
This shower would’nt know economic reality from a hole in the wall .
It’s the same oul shite that was dished out to Northern Catholics for generations only now dressed up in ‘respectable ‘ 2009 clothes for recent immigrants. When the sea recedes the ‘discriminatory’ mindset is still there . If NI is now the ‘beneficiary ‘ of tiny amounts of outside ‘investment ‘ they’ll be the ‘beneficiaries ‘ of even less if the words of Wilson and Donaldson are heeded by the xenophobes .
David Vance ,
‘We are all europeans now ‘
Not according to DUPers Wilson and Donaldson . Some europeans are more european than others:(
You’ll never guess who though ;(?
This lot belong in Orwell’s ‘Animal Farm’.
There must be an election on the way with the ‘xenophobes ‘ reaching out to the base
Has nobody told Sammy that we are in a rescession?
Nobody is getting hired, they’re just getting fired…..
My brother is woking in England, my nephew is working in Australia and my cousin is working in America. They’re all economic migrants. I must email them all and tell them to come home immediately because they’re taking the jobs from English/Australian/American workers. Or they could just sacrificing their home life to pay the bills like everyone else.
DUP xenophobes and Sinn Fein/IRA psychopaths, – lovely.
Harry,
Sammy Wilson’s comments are not appropriate for a ‘government’ minister in any part of the UK or any part of the EU. EU law prevents discrimination on grounds of nationality. Wilson knows this. His rhetoric is populist, irresponsible and aimed at his own constituency. But hey, he’s in the DUP.
It is only a year or two ago that loyalist paramilitaries were waging a full-blown campaign of intimidation aimed at migrants.
I also have the right to free speech
Typical nordies,
Most of ye work in an overinflated public sector, which is paid for by London, yet you still want an unfair playing pitch to disadvantage those who you consider outsiders and might be able to successfully compete for whatever passes for the private sector these days.
When oh when will nordies realise that creed colour and religion are not what you use to judge people, but rather their individual character, work ethic and experience.
some day my children, some day.
Daniel Konieczny
Remember this polish catholic guy from Lisburn who joined the DUP?
I wonder what he thinks of the bould Sammy Wilson
Dup Conference 2008
http://www.orange-order.co.uk/chronicle/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=21383
Peter Robinson delivered a strong speech, in a statesmanlike way making the point that people like Daniel Konieczny would be welcome in the DUP. “After 40 years of painful, bloody conflict this party has been given the opportunity, and the mandate, to build a better society for everyone in Northern Ireland. And when I say everyone I mean it,” he said.
And again: “I want to see a unionist community that is confident and generous and one that reaches out to those from all parts of the community and indeed to those who come to Northern Ireland from abroad.”
Nobody’s going to make any headway on this issue by saying Sammy Wilson is a BNP candidate. He’s not. You only serve to ignore the issue at hand which is ‘how do we create jobs?’ Better tackle the concerns he expresses than handing it over to the BNP or Combat 18 who, with rising unemployment over here, have a very easy way of getting support. The DUP, nomatter how much you disagree with them, are no BNP. Better they raise the issue that Nick Griffth.
Who knows what the classification of ‘local people’ is Quagmire? It’s an unfair assessment whatever it is.
“I also have the right to free speech”
Of course you do dear, and I wouldn’t dream of having you fired from your job because you express your honestly held and perfectly legal beliefs about an important social issue.
Same goes for Sammy.
Of course you do dear, and I wouldn’t dream of having you fired from your job because you express your honestly held and perfectly legal beliefs about an important social issue.
Except that it’s not ‘perfectly legal’ to discriminate against anyone on the grounds of nationality which is what Sammy Wilson is proposing.
By supposedly extending this proposed bar to anyone from outside Northern Ireland (as opposed to the Poles, Lithies and Freestaters he clearly has in mind ), Samuel has raised the hilarious scenario of the DUP telling English, Scottish and Welsh people to piss off back home while simultaneously stuffing £5 billion of UK Exchequer subvention into their back pockets.
“Except that it’s not ‘perfectly legal’ to discriminate against anyone on the grounds of nationality which is what Sammy Wilson is proposing.”
So what you’re saying is that because something happens to be the law then if anyone suggests the law needs to be changed then they should be sacked.
Sammy thinks (wrongly in my opinion) that people from Northern Ireland should get preferential treatment in the workplace, currently this is not permitted by the law so therefore he should be sacked, is that it?
If I suggested that abortion should be freely available in Northern Ireland, something which is contrary to present law, should I also be disbarred from public office?
Is disagreeing with current legislation now grounds for job dismissal?