Could translation of government documents to Irish be crowdsourced?
Social networking site Facebook is being translated into Irish by enthusiastic volunteers.
Given a common objection to the translation of Government documents into Irish is cost, could such a system be used to harness the Irish language community itself to do much of the work? There would probably need to be systems put in place in order to make this possible, but large scale projects such as Wikipedia prove that crowdsourcing can be viable where there is an interest. There could be a number of side benefits too: it pushes the choice of which documents to translate onto the community itself, it could allow a place for feedback to be collected and as running such a scheme successfully would probably require a portal with easy access to the documents, it could help improve access for English language speakers too.
What do you think?
GGN
Do you how Wikipedia works? It would run a lot like that.
Billyo
What “most” people believe in a representative democracy is actually not directly relevant. What matter is what their representatives agree. And thankfully, they’ve already agreed a number of things regarding Irish whether you like them or not.
But this isn’t actually a thread for standard ranting, so either engage brain or shut mouth.
DC
EU nationals folks. Try telling a German or French person that they cannot buy a house in Belfast or Dublin because they do not speak English or Irish and let’s see what happens.
You are generalising without justification. We are talking about a pretty limited area, the status of which has been been in existence for a long time and political decision was made to protect it. I don’t know if France or Germany have any areas with special protection on them for reason x but I’d guess there is a few.
It is discrimination whethet even legal or not it is discrimination.
Yes. Did you read anything I have said?
It’s discrimination. I’m not arguing for or againts but telling you that if you set aside houses for Irish speakers only means that you are unlawfully discriminating in favour of Irish speakers.
Say Germany did protect houses for german speakers only imagine how you would feel if you had a business idea for a particular area and wanted to live near by but were told no. Say even your wife speaks German but you as the owner and main occupier do not. Even if you say it’s not ethnicity arguably it is indirect discrimination that applies a criteria that affects others non german speakers and favours in reality ethnic germans. Personally it seems to me direct discrimination with ethnic undertones.
Tough luck then for me well next time don’t knock the unionists for their protectionism in the past!
DC
It’s discrimination. I’m not arguing for or againts but telling you that if you set aside houses for Irish speakers only means that you are unlawfully discriminating in favour of Irish speakers.
Pay attention. It is discrimination. That is agreed, numbnuts. The question is whether or not it is justified discrimination or not.
How do you know it is unlawful? You are asserting. Bear in mind this is the Republic where there are less political issues with parts of the population having an intense hate of the language.
Say Germany did protect houses for german speakers.. .yaddda yaddda yadda
Still not good enough. Irish is a minority language in danger of dying out. German is not. This is not about buying “a house”. It is about buying a house in a very small geographic area that has been acknowledges with a certain special status for a very long time. Please tell me we;’re aren’t going down the German line for obvious reasons.
It is also not an ethnic criteria however you cut it. Anyone can learn the language. And if you don’t want to learn the language, why the fuck do you want to live in a Gaeltacht.
Tough luck then for me well next time don’t knock the unionists for their protectionism in the past!
This is not the same thing at all. There is no political or cultural supremacy involved here. It might even cost votes. It’s a move taken in order to protect an indigenous language form dying out in a particular area. You may not believe this is a worthwhile political goal, but I have yet to see any evidence it is either immoral or illegal.
And I have no particular opposition to similar moves for Scottish or Welsh (or even, if we must Ulster Scots) provide they are proportionate and appropriately limited to designated areas. Would you prefer to see languages die out?
Can you justify your position, or are you going to keep repeating yourself?
Well okay then..there isn’t much more I can say.
I take it you would be ticker if people in the Shankill refused Irish travellers so as to maintain English speaking loyalist cohesion in a largely nationalist area?
Anyway if you want to discriminate that’s fine just don’t knock the minority Protestants on this isle when they ran housing protectionism, that’s all really.
I see no harm in trying to maintain the linguistic integrity of an established Gaeltacht especially if it’s an area that would attract second home owners as I suspect most of them are. However, I doubt that such a policy will do much to stem the tide.
What would be intolerable is the creation of new contrived linguistic ghettos sustained by discriminatory practices.
“A contrived linguistic ghetto” would be a possibility and would reinforce a form of apartheid which already exists in this part of the world.
Communities living apart divided by politics, religion, sport ,culture, and a new obstacle Language.
Will Ireland/ Britain ever produce a leader who can be respected by both traditions.
hmm, we seem to have drifted into a boring discussion on language and politics.
Would it not be nice if we could focus on the topic of whether grass roots activism employing technology can circumvent incompetent or disinterested govt.s
Certainly the web allows groups who share a common interest to build critical mass without requiring geographical proximity. Its clear that at this stage in the language’s development that this is necessary and probably a stepping stone to actually seeing critical mass develop in a social context offline.
Using the group of language enthusiasts to translate the documents into irish is a fantastic idea but maybe , as some have commented, it is at too high a level to have a meaningful impact and more critically at too high a level to susstain the interest of thoes who would volunteer their time into such an effort, Practically speaking how man times would a person translate a 100 page document on rural development having just translated an 80 page doc on sustainable energy etc.
Can I suggest that maybe there is consensus that the idea has merit but that a lower, more immediate, type of document would be suitable? What would that be I wonder.
I would like to see a group of volunteers writing Irish web pages for companies who could easily upload them into their sites using their standard content management system. Ideally some independent and trusted 3rd group could accredit the accuracy of the translation. Gets Irish into the biz world and online in a productive way. Lets see companies offering Irish language content even if its only the about page. Conmpanies would like the diferent angle it provides them for free.
Also commercial products like OS Commerce, a common web shop and free source application availabale in many languages but not Irish.
Ireland has a strong IT community. Can they not be put to work.
ulstefan
““A contrived linguistic ghetto” would be a possibility and would reinforce a form of apartheid which already exists in this part of the world”
Apartheid is a terrible thing, maybe you also want a ban on the use of Scottish Gaelic and Welsh in those parts of the British isles?
DC
“Say Germany did protect houses for german speakers only imagine how you would feel if you had a business idea for a particular area and wanted to live near by but were told no”
Learn German, they’ll give you the go-ahead, all the locals will be rootin for you in your new enterprise – everyone’s a winner.
Yes but what if the Germans can speak basic english too where I am going to create Euros, why can’t I move in?
Jeremy
In the first instance you make an erroneous assumption. It is unlikely to be a single person translating a whole document; rather it is likely to be several people contributing what they can. That is how these system tend to work.
Second, there is, at least by some people, claimed demand for this sort of thing. This would test it.
Third, they could do whatever they saw fit — if that is translating only Executive Summaries or websites there is a variety of tasks they could take on. The choice is really up to them.
Yes you are right Kensei the special status is justifiable in the republic due to the lack of litigious comparators such as a lack of a significant minority of Protestants to run cases to challenge this.
The reason why it wasn’t and isn’t justifiable in NI is the massive amount of contrasting identities and ethnicities which would make such a stance incompatible here as the overwhelming comparators would highlight favourable treatment to Irish speakers. Any exemption rung out from the EU would collapse due to its own incompetence what with such blatant preferential treatment.
The principle is still discrimination as you agree. You seem indifferent to it which is strange as I thought SF leaning republicans were all for equality. Seemingly not so as discriminatory practice is okay if you want to keep up Irish so as not to go the way of Old Norse. Some Irish are more equal than other Irish, but then the Equality Authority’s budget hasn’t fared too well recently in the republic not to mention the winding up of the race body.
DC,
“The reason why it wasn’t and isn’t justifiable in NI..”
I’ve never heard anybody advocate this for Northern Ireland – it doesn’t have a gaeltacht. It is (or it should be) about language, it isn’t about Irish Catholics most of whom, in common with most protestants, don’t speak Irish.
Otherwise, why don’t you get onto your local westminster representative to stamp out this sort of thing where it does occur in the UK – http://www.chcymru.org.uk/news/7895.html
This thread once again proves that many people up da north know sfa about Irish language issues.
There’s nothing unreasonable about setting aside a certain percentage of new homes in a gaeltacht for fluent Irish speakers, for example. This is not the same as banning non-Irish speakers outright.
that’s useful stuff – from the Welsh Language Board
Would you like houses set aside for English speakers only? It’s that simple. Yes or no?
DC
The reason why it wasn’t and isn’t justifiable in NI is the massive amount of contrasting identities and ethnicities which would make such a stance incompatible here as the overwhelming comparators would highlight favourable treatment to Irish speakers. Any exemption rung out from the EU would collapse due to its own incompetence what with such blatant preferential treatment.
So — to sum. This wouldn’t fly in the North (if it had a Gaeltacht, or one created) because Prods hate the Irish language and would unreasonably kick stink obver this, even if they had access to comparable public housing elsewhere.
O look! I can do the rsarcastic reduce argument down thing too!
You seem indifferent to it which is strange as I thought SF leaning republicans were all for equality
Are you fucking braindead? Read what I and others have written repeatedly.
For reference, I am also happy to support the 50-50 rule in policing. That is also discriminatory, but it can be justified, on a limited basis, as necessary for developing a properly functioning society here. When people yell “discriminaton” what they mean is “Unjustifiable discrimination”. I am certainly against that. I am simply asking why you believe this is unjustifiable. As yet, you got nothing.
DC
Would you like houses set aside for English speakers only? It’s that simple. Yes or no?
No, DC, it is not that simple. It would be that simple if English was a minority language and had areas marked as specifically English and protected. In which case, yes, I would be happy to support it. You cannot generalise in this fashion, and it is dishonest to do so.
POI.
There is a Gaeltacht in the North, in Belfast in fact. Home to around thirty families.
Kensei stop making excuses for discrimination, albeit linguistic as you would wish to put it.
It’s land protectionism. I dont really know how to put this other than saying that I really doubt it would fly here in NI if someone set aside houses for Irish speakers.
It’s like the boss in a firm saying he only wants people who can work 8-6, it’s a criteria that rules out females with young families.
But there might be a really unique reason for such a pattern the boss could justify I suppose, other employees, sure fight for it but some might think otherwise.
Sorry it’s still the psychology of discriminatory practice to protect something such as this is doing; one thing it’s not is equality by a long shot.
As to why you are having problems registering that and making a fuss over it is beyond me.
Why should language be okay as a criteria and not religion then?
“For reference, I am also happy to support the 50-50 rule in policing. That is also discriminatory, but it can be justified, on a limited basis, as necessary for developing a properly functioning society here.”
The PSNI is another mess. Properly functioning society, did you not go red after writing that.
DC
Kensei stop making excuses for discrimination, albeit linguistic as you would wish to put it.
Why?
It’s land protectionism. I dont really know how to put this other than saying that I really doubt it would fly here in NI if someone set aside houses for Irish speakers.
It is linguistic protectionism. Ireland, even the North is sparsely populated. I fail to see why if this was appropriately budgeted and an alternative offered elsewhere, why it is a great evil. You’ve spectacularly failed to demonstrate it.
It’s like the boss in a firm saying he only wants people who can work 8-6, it’s a criteria that rules out females with young families.
Excellent example. Because an 8-6 shift are perfectly legal working hours, as far as I know. It maybe that the employer is doing it to rule out people with young families. Or maybe there is a perfectly good reason for it. In one case it can be justified, in one case it can’t.
Sorry it’s still the psychology of discriminatory practice to protect something such as this is doing; one thing it’s not is equality by a long shot.
You’re first sentence does not make sense and the second is tautology given I have accept that on some level this is discriminatory. There is things that could be done to limit impact. however. Alternative accomodation could be offered elsewhere. Money could come out of the budget for language promotion and not general housing funds. Excetera.
As to why you are having problems registering that and making a fuss over it is beyond me.
Because you do not appear to be listening and ignoring the argument and just repeating “discrimination2 endlessly without thought.
Why should language be okay as a criteria and not religion then?
Protecting an indigneous language from dying out is a valid policy for a secular democratic Government, assuming requisite political support. Can everyone agree on that? Now ask yourself is protecting a particular religion also a valid goal for a secular democratic government. You could probably come up with a few circumstances, but I’d guess you’d lean towards no. So there is some inherent difference there.
DC
Read what I actually said.
I should add: what is happening with the PSNI is not really about religion. Thjat just happens to correlate on what we want. It is about ensuring all sections of society have acceptance of the police, and that the police is representative of the people it serves. We are moving from a situatiion where neither of those is the case, and allowing things to happen naturally could be too slow and risk gains made. It is on those grounds it is justified, and not religion and be be done on those grounds only for a limited period.
Well you’ve made your points but I don’t think it’s something I’d like to experience to be excluded over others who speak only Irish.
Certainly it’s something that in power I would not be supporting by a long shot for the reasons of it being distorted and extrapolated out into other areas.