Good god, Gaza and Gonzo.
I had always intended to go along to the Trade Unions organised demonstration in support of the people of Gaza today but after hearing about some éirígí organised direct actions I got in touch with Belfast Gonzo and both of us went into the city centre to cover the main rally and other protests. (I have Gonzo’s camera so am using his photos and video in my blog – thanks to BG)Things kicked off with an éirígí protest in Castle Court around 11.45am. They were focusing on the Spa products stall in the mall staffed by Israeli’s who have the difficult job of accosting shoppers and trying to get them interested in their products. The products are sourced from the Dead Sea.
éirígí members threw lots leaflets from the gallery above over the stall and around 30 surrounded it waving Palestinian flags, throwing more leaflets and chanting ‘boycott Israeli’ goods.
I was unable to get photos as a member of staff stood in front of me, pushed me with his shoulder, demanded to know what I was doing and despite being informed I was not part of the protest, didn’t intend to join in and was covering events for a website continued to manhandled me, rammed his forehead against my face and gave some verbal abuse. I told him if the only photos I got were of his face I’d end up only being able to put them online and describe his actions. As the protest dispersed and I met Gonzo back on the street this staff member followed me outside, demanded to know the website I was part of, who ran it (I grassed Mick up straight away) and informed me if his picture appeared online he’d ‘know who I was and how to get me’. (I have his picture but I’m not going to add it to the blog)
The staff of the targeted stall were visibly shaken, one woman and one man reduced to tears, the man comforted by a member of security staff.
Then Gonzo and I headed off to the main demo. It took a while to form up and around five minutes to pass once on the move.
The protest stretched from the City Hall to the end of Royal Avenue and I’d estimate it had 3-5,000 participants.
As MSM was concentrating on the platform I and Gonzo focused on events at the fringes of the crowd.
At one point there was a shambolic burning of an Israeli flag.
As I tried to get a photo of the abandoned remnants a woman approached and shouted ‘Who did this’ then proceeded to scream ‘No flag of any nation should be burnt. Did anyone burn our flag during 30 years of terrorism’? I later saw her on the edges of the crowd with her young children holding the flag remains aloft and one of her children holding a SF placard with ‘Stop the rockets. No more bodies’ now written on the back.
Amongst the colourful flags and banners in a throng that included Unions, SDLP Youth, Amnesty, SF, Workers Party, Socialist Party, SWP, IRSP, RNU, PFLP and many more I spotted at least one Hamas flag.
At one point the PSNI approached people waving an upside down US flag and Galician flag and insisted that they remove their scarves from over their faces.
Then Gonzo had to leave for work and he kindly leant me his video camera to get some footage of a further éirígí protest planned for Marks & Spencer.
The leaflet they distributed to the rally declared their intention to go into the store, fill trolleys, have the stuff scanned, refuse to pay and disrupt trading in protest over their close relationship with Israel.
This is where things went a bit pear-shaped for me; I was filming the protest that closed down tills, involved around 50 people gathered around the checkout area chanting ‘boycott Israeli goods’ (to the general bemusement of shoppers) when the PSNI arrived. At one stage a policeman pushed a trolley into me, put his hand over the camera then pushed it and me back into some shelves telling me to ‘get the hell out of the shop’.
I was recording more of the protest when a young woman grabbed me and tried to take Gonzo’s camera calling me ‘scum’, punching me and wrestling me. Her mother arrived on the scene, joined the fray trying to relieve me of the camera, punching at me and scrabbing before screaming ‘This man has assaulted my daughter. Assault, assault’ (bloody nutter) and shouting for a cop to come over. A policeman came over as they continued to try and relieve me of the camera and had to forcibly remove them from my back and tell them to desist.
I was taken to the edge of the protest, explained I wasn’t part of it and was only there to record events for a website. The whole time the woman and mother were interrupting, shouting abuse and insisting my camera was confiscated. The policeman demand to see what was on the camera and for 5 mins I couldn’t get it to work as it was Gonzo’s and had no idea of the buttons, he then threatened to confiscate it. Eventually I managed to show the footage and he demanded I deleted, I tried to be a smart-arse and delete something else but unfortunately all that footage in M&S is now gone. The only thing that remains is a short clip of my feet and the floor taken during the struggle.
I’ll have to try and source M&S footage elsewhere.
At that point I called it a day.
“Jimmy, I ask what is it about Israel,”
Harry
It ain’t rocket science, no other country as far as I’m aware has been the occupying power against UN resolutions for 41 years. It really is that simply.
In general there is very little criticism by the media, the left, and elsewhere of what the Israeli’s get up to in Israel proper. Indeed before 1967 and the occupation, most people in the West, including the political left supported Israel, whereas today due to the brutality they have used as an occupying power this is no longer the case. [statistic can be found on tomorrows Organized Rage.]
regards
PS By the way, this thread must be a bit of a record for slugger as it took 21 comments before the anti islam crap hit the blog.
Posters wanting more evidence of the Israeli Foreign Ministry manufacturing disinformation about such incidents should consult this link which followed the alleged one in Odense – what is advertised as a Muslim blog, and the article as providing information “…for people looking for more information about Odense shooting”:
http:islamineurope.blogspot.com/20´09/01/odense-strained-relations-between.html
The only trouble with the article is that it provides no new information about the shooting, only complaints by two rabbis about what happened to them several years ago in Denmank.
Now, the Jerusalem Post – which provided the first false story about that incident – has one today, denouncing the labor rally because Patrick Magee, the Brighton bomber, and ETA’s Juan Ignacio Chaos, “terrorists, attended it.
The apologists for Israel are trying to make it so only God is allowed to complain, and he seems occupied elsewhere.
Mistyped the link:
http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/01/odense-strained-relations-between.html
Tibet Mick? Maybe I missed your protests against the illegal occupation of the Baltic Republics by Russia for fifty years or the treatment of the Kurds by Iran and Turkey or any one of half a hundred territorial disputes that have raged over the past forty years all around the world.
Still no one can come up with a coherent, logical and simple reason why uniquely it is Israel that is loathed so much above all the others.
Well, I’ve got a fair idea but everyone tells me I’m wrong but they never can come up with an alternative so I suspect I might be on to something.
Harry
That is a very English slagging, calling me a twat. I thought it was your identity that you sought to expunge, not your speech patterns also. Anyhow.
When are we to read your theories on the Unionists who revel in Palestinian blood. Or is it only the anger of those protesting against the bullies that annoy you, Any chance of coming clean?
Still no one can come up with a coherent, logical and simple reason why uniquely it is Israel that is loathed so much above all the others.
It is because of the relationship between the West and Israeli war machine.
None of the other criminal states you mention rely so heavily or so consistently on Western support – economic, political, military.
The strength of this relationship means that their crimes to a large extent are our responsibility.
That is the difference. Anti-semitism has f-all to do with it.
I have an answer, Harry Flashman, and I think that I am qualifed to reply as I was fired from three jobs in academe because of my protests over America’s war in Vietnam, and Reagan’s showdown with the Soviets when Palme’s assassination was intended to trigger it. Also I have protested several times here in Stockholm against its preemtive wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and I plan to protest very soon about what is going on now.
Many people from the West felt guilt over the treatment of the Jews by the Nazis during WWII, and were willing to see much to be done for them, even their aggression when it became more and more excessive.
They were even willing to see the Israelis take punitive damages at the expense of others because of what West nations, particularly the US and Britain, had allowed to happen to the Jews.
But even punitive damages ultimately become excessive, and now defenders of what happened previously are turning against the government in Tel Aviv which doesn’t really care anymore about what other people think and do about its rabid actions.
SDLP PALESTINIAN SLAUGHTER HYPOCRISCY
I am writing to you to register my disgust at the hypocrisy of the SDLP in relation to the morally unjustifiable actions by Israel in Gaza. Whilst on the one hand SDLP Leader Mark Durkan announces that he has written to British Foreign Secretary David Milliband and the Israeli ambassadors in London and Dublin to register his deep concern at the “deteriorating situation” as well as joining more than 100 MPs and other lords to sign a statement demanding the end to the slaughter in Gaza, on the other, the SDLP in Newry and Mourne Council in an alliance with the Unionist members also serving on the Council, voted to refuse myself and many others who feel so strong about this issue, the right to register our concerns, sympathies and disgust at the human catastrophe which is currently unfolding, by refusing to put Books of Condolences for those killed in Council Buildings throughout the area. The Council had Condolence Books for many things such as the 7/11 London Bombing, the deaths of the Queen Mother, Princess Diana and George Best, but unfortunately Gaza with nearly 800 dead (mostly civilians) and over 2000 wounded (many maimed), does not seem to fit the local SDLP understanding, of what the people of Newry and Mourne can register sympathies for. In his statement Mark Durkan stated “It is not good enough for governments, including the UK government, to hide behind superficial even-handedness, to call for a two-way ceasefire in terms that suggest that Israel is not to be held to any particular account for the scale, nature and humanitarian impact of the military action it has deployed”. Obviously the SDLP leaders words were not meant for his own elected representatives to practice. The collective SDLP vote against the proposal to allow Books of Condolences for those killed in this latest savagery on helpless people was morally wrong and they should hang their heads in shame.
SDLP vote against the proposal to allow Books of Condolences
Do you have a source for this?
Harry,
You may be correct about Tibit, although I’m not sure, but if not you might ask those in the USA administration who you have supported on slugger, why they do not demand that the Chinese leave Tibit.
You are wrong about the Kurdish problem, as although some kurdish groups did once demand a separate Kurdish State, these days not even the PKK in Turkey demands it, having opted for a federalist solution. Nor were there to be any UN resolutions about Soviet satellites, as shamefully Stalin had been given his east European fiefdom in the post WW2 great powers stitch-up at Yalta and Potsdam.
No, Israeli occupation of the west Bank and blockade of Gaza is a one off and that is why Israel is becoming the pariah state of the world. Perhaps you could deal with that rather than making assumptions about what I might or might not have done.
I was not born when the Baltic republics were occupied, but unlike you Harry I have no doubt, I was out on the Streets in 1968 protesting against the USSR sending tanks into Czechoslovakia and again supporting Solidarity a decade or so later.
Some of us oppose all regimes who oppress ordinary people, no matter what their political affiliations, whereas you seem to prefer the pic and mix variety so that you can keep your ideology sweet, shame on you..
Also I have protested several times here in Stockholm against its preemtive wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and I plan to protest very soon about what is going on now.
Thank Christ. The Israelis are surely likely to up sticks and back off at the prospect. More power to you.
Sean
Not there finest hour for sure, it displays an attitude that is current amongst many western politicians that the death of a Palestinian, is somehow not equal to a death in similar circumstances in London, Belfast or New York
We can all talk about who’s wrong and who’s right till the cows come home, but most of us will miss the mark, as we’re not thinking broad enough or long enough back in history to get a good grasp of the situation in Gaza.
…as for the poor workers in Castle-court and M&S;who endured that intimidation at their work place, I hope they sue Eirigi and get a good compensation package from them.
Harry,
Of course you’d have to ask them, but some less sinister explanations do present themselves. One is that Israel, unlike the other countries, enjoys the support of western governments and they wish to dissociate themselves. Another may be that Israel, as a far more liberal and open society than the others may be regarded as more amenable to pressure. If you’re not calling Israel’s critics anti-semites then what is your theory?
Harry
“Still no one can come up with a coherent, logical and simple reason why uniquely it is Israel that is loathed so much above all the others.”
You’ve posted this a few times and every time someone comes up with something plausible.
May I suggest:
1) Palestine/israel is a country we read about from nursery upwards in terms of biblical stories. Inately people are going to care about it more than SUdan or Tibet, which they havent had that exposure to
2) Israel styles itself a western democracy (as an aside, it enters eurovision FFS) so people often judge it by the standards it claims for itself (althoug of course Israeli supporters, when desperate, always seek to compareit to neighbouring dictatorships.
3) Israel has subsisted on the largesse of people in the west, including the UK (of many different religions) as well as the direct interventions of Western governments. This isnt the case with Darfur etc
You may want to cast your memory back to the eighties. One could argue that South Africa wasnt as brutal a regime as, say Guatemala )or countless others but got more media attention, people riled up etc
Was this evidence of widespread anti-Dutch bigotry?
“Still no one can come up with a coherent, logical and simple reason why uniquely it is Israel that is loathed so much above all the others.
800 dead Palestinians versus about 15 dead Israelis in the present conflict. How about that ?
How’s about it is just another of Harry’s outrageous accusations?
Like I have mentioned a few times now, why is it always the Irish he attacks, no matter the subject matter. We have all read the trollish Vance and other varied Unionists on here supporting Israel and positively revelling in Palestinian blood.
Surely a cae of mote and plank if there ever was one?
Tuts and shakes head at Sean –
Books of Condolences – what do they do to effect change in the crisis ? how effective or useful are they – apart from massaging your self esteem. Yes sign your name- if it makes you feel better about the situation.
. How about you do something more pro-active like join the protest, donate money or lobby your MPS and MLAs.
The SDLP have consistently stood up for their principles, one of which is non-violence and the condemnation of this attacks on democratically elected governments and states . But we see through Seans post that there is many people who have a short term memory or just want to throw misplaced digs at SDLP .
Never got round to it before but elected reps I saw at the rally:
Gerry Kelly, Anna Lo, Paul Butler, Alban Maginness, Paul Maskey, Alex Maskey, Tom Hartley, Jennifer McCann.
Nelson McCausland and Chris Stalford (not supporting but videoing)
Anyone for any more?
“Still no one can come up with a coherent, logical and simple reason why uniquely it is Israel that is loathed so much above all the others.
I always put it down to the (silly) belief that Isreal…. well should really know better. After all, wasn’t that why our particular conflict was so fascinating to the rest of the world? Educated white western Europeans shooting other educated white western Europeans. And isn’t Isreal in the Eurovision? What in under God’s name hope have you in getting Russia to stop acting the dick? None. But maybe with Isreal they’ll wise up
Harassing Castlecourt staff’s hardly the way forward though.
I always put it down to the (silly) belief that Isreal…. well should really know better.
That’s not really it, although an uncomfortable cognitive dissonance is created by the incessant propaganda about Israeli moral superiority.
We are responsible for Israel’s actions through the actions of our governments. It’s not really any more complicated than that.
Harry might also want to ask why Western governments consistently support Israeli atrocities, and not those of “China? Russia? Sudan? Saudi Arabia? Pakistan? Iran?”
Although he might not find that as satisfying as implying that we are all anti-semites.
I forgot to mention that Mark’s report is really excellent work.
I was at the M&S;protest and witnessed at first hand your ‘assualt’ by the woman and her mother. Due to my close proximity can I actually state that this woman was so angry as you had in fact filmed her 7 month old child whilst in the pram. This was a terrifying situation for this young child to be in and the mother was only trying to protect her child.
I understand that there is a serious problem in Gaza but the fear put under eldery people and young children was unfair. It was supposed to be ‘dignified’ and ‘peaceful’. It was not. Take the cause to the UN and the Embassy.
>>I actually state that this woman was so angry as you had infact filmed her 7 month old child whilst in the pram. This was a terrifying situation for this young child to be in and the mother was only trying to protect her child.<<
Mark doesn’t exactly cover himself in glory in terms of combat photography but the idea that a 7 month old would be terrified of a camera makes an arse of your story.
Back to the drawing board for madey up stories.
Anon
Maybe you were there, but it seems to me Israel fears western sanctions more than it does a march through Belfast; and if what you say is true, who looked after the child when the woman and her ‘daughter’ were attacking Mark?
Mark did fine to bring all of this to our attention and the response to his post makes me believe even more we should fight to get sanction placed on Israel.
I was at the M&S;protest and witnesed at first hand your ‘assualt’ by the woman and her mother. Due to my close proximity can I actually state that this woman was so angry as you had infact filmed her 7 month old child whilst in the pram. This was a terrifying situation for this young child to be in and the mother was only trying to protect her child.
That is a complete lie. An utter fabrication. Put your name to your comment next time you slander me.
I note you don’t have the balls to stand over your crap with a real name.
Right, so the answer to my question as to “why Israel?” is that it is because fundamentally we all recognise that Israel is in fact a more civilised, democratic, humane state than all the other pariah states that I listed.
This comes as a huge surprise to me as from reading about the protests against Israel one would be led to believe that Israel was in fact the Second Coming of Beelzebub, an out and out monstrosity of a nation, the one country that uniquely shouldn’t even have the right to exist, a Nazi/Apartheid state truly loathsome above all others on the face of the earth.
Something about those two positions doesn’t seem to compute.
As a matter of fact I agree with the first position, Israel is indeed a more civilised, democratic and humane state compared to almost other nations outside western Europe, North America, Australia, NZ and Japan. They are a credit to themselves for what they have achieved from nothing in sixty years, all the more reason therefore to support them when mediaeval fascists (if you’ll forgive the anachronism) are determined to wipe them out.
It is precisely because of their uniquely precious position as a democratic civilised beacon in a swamp of Dark Age primitivism that they should be given a bit of leeway in their existential fight for survival.
Seems rather obvious to me.
Harry
How does the one man one vote work with the Arab Israeli’s again?
And ignoring my repeated calls for your views on Unionist support for Israel helps your credibility how?
Does Isreal have no right to ask that rockets aren’t fired into their country on a daily basis? That is all they asked.
Hamas wanted this war and they got it. Those people should not have voted them in if they didn’t want the inevitable Israeli response to terror.
I have read that about 15-20K Hamas fanatics are in complete control of every aspect of life in Gaza. They are cruel thugs who kill other palestinians who do not follow their strict codes of Islam. All opposition to them have been silenced.
check out this video of Hamas “soldiers” beating and killing members of a wedding party for having the gall to sing and dance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1M4eH9Kk7I
Islam…the religion of peace.
Harry,
I can only speak for myself, others can answer for themselves. Coming from the opposite side of the political spectrum as you I am aware of the enormous role played in liberal and progressive causes over the years by Jewish communities worldwide. The historic treatment of Palestinian Arabs is a betrayal of that tradition and this mindless pointless carnage is utterly indefensible.
“And ignoring my repeated calls for your views on Unionist support for Israel helps your credibility how?”
I don’t understand your posts Eoghan, they usually consist of bile filled nonsense expressed in a faux Glaswegian accent that seems simply infantile and usually couched in your silly attempts at amateur psycho-analysis of my character. To be perfectly honest, I just filter you out these days, I know it’s rude but until such times as you deem to debate me in civilised terms I can do no other.
Now ask me again, what is it you want to know? Is it something about Unionism? If so why ask me? I’m not an expert on Unionism.
If you have fired 10,000 rockets at Israelis since 2001, each one targeting civilians and each one a war crime, then on-one will really be surprised if you refuse to take the consequences of your “Jihad” like men and stop using Palestinian civilians as human shields (also a war crime). This is typical of this bunch of maggots that consistently send women, children, and the disabled to do their “fighting” for them as human bombs placed among defenceless civilian targets. The Hamas commander who was killed last week at least had the balls to climb out of his bunker and fight his Jihad like a man – even if he was only forced to do so because the rest of his brave Jihadists abandoned him for the safety of crowded buildings. Where are the rest of the scampered Jihadists lurking? Try looking in the reinforced bunkers built by Israel to protect Gazans in the basement of the Shifa Hospital in Gaza City. They know that Israel will not target a hospital, so they use the sick therein as human shields. It is only when these cowardly parasites are destroyed that will there be any basis for progress. The Palestinians are beginning to realise that supporting terrorists who are extraterritorial Islamists wasn’t the smartest option for those whose agenda is a territorial solution.
Sean, your assertion that Gazans killed in the present conflict are “mostly civilians” is incorrect. They are mostly Hamas military – only about a quarter are genuine civilians. OK?
Just how many cibilians is it ok to kill Geoffrey? Where’s your line in the sand?
Right, so the answer to my question as to “why Israel?” is that it is because fundamentally we all recognise that Israel is in fact a more civilised, democratic, humane state than all the other pariah states that I listed.
No. The answer is that Israel is more dependent on Western support to commit its crimes than any of the other countries you listed. And this support is what makes it our responsibility.
The whole thing about Israel’s supposed moral superiority is merely a propaganda line that creates cognitive dissonance in the politically aware viewer.
I have posted this response three times now. Perhaps this time you will read it.
They are mostly Hamas military – only about a quarter are genuine civilians. OK?
Since a third of them are children, that statistic seems unlikely.
In fact, if a third are childern it seems unlikely that even 50% are Hamas military.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/one-third-of-gaza-dead-are-children-14135438.html
Harry
“Right, so the answer to my question as to “why Israel?” is that it is because fundamentally we all recognise that Israel is in fact a more civilised, democratic, humane state than all the other pariah states that I listed.”
err, no. That was only one answer to your question. There were others eg the links between Israel and Western governments, the fact people are more interested in an area they have heard about since childhood etc…
Strangely you didnt address those?
I do agree with the proposition that Israel is often not as bad as made out by its opponents, but the idea they are a “credit to themselves” after effectively ethnically cleansing a large area of its original inhabitants, and then launching a series of aggressive wars, seems a bit ridiculous. I can think of lots of nonWestern countries who have not done that, so who could be viewed as being morally superior to Israel, by that reckoning.
Mayoman: In the course of their operations against Nazi Germany, the allies were responsible – regrettably – for the deaths of hundreds – probably thousands – of German children, so I think that is as good a ‘yardstick’ as you are going to get. But it is also worth pointing out that, from Hamas’s point of view, the more children and other ‘innocents’ that are killed, the better. On 29 February 2008, a Hamas spokesman, Fathi Hamad, made the following statement on Al-Aqsa TV: “For the Palestinian people, death became an industry, at which women excel and so do all people on this land: the elderly excel, the Jihad fighters excel, and the children excel. Accordingly, Palestinians created a human shield of women, children, the elderly and the Jihad fighters against the Zionist bombing machine, as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: we desire death as you desire life…..”
This is the political entity that the citizens of Gaza voted for.
The Hamas Charter constitutes a declaration of war against the Jewish people. The Jewish people are fighting back. Do you have a problem with that?
a Hamas spokesman, Fathi Hamad, made the following statement…
What is more important: words or actions?
Because it seems that the Palestinians are constantly being condemned for what they say, while Israel’s criminal actions are applauded.
More on Gaza conflict etc here,
http://www.organizedrage.com/2009/01/israel-has-squandered-worlds-support-by.html
GA: I think the dubious nature of actions such as the Dresden bombings have been discussed in detail. Some never learn from history hey? So, no, my question is not answered. How many civilians need to be killed before you will condemn tha actions of Israel? What concerns me as much, is this question of proportion. What is the acceptable Hamas/cvilian ratio? I remind you of your post: “only about a quarter are genuine civilians. OK?” I note the word ‘only’!
I would add further, that any country that propogates violence, while forbidding any independent observance of that violence, has something to hide. The truth, whne it emerged, could be much worse.
On the second point, the cycle of ‘chicken and egg’ cannot get away from the fact that Palestinian lands were disposessed and Israel has no intention of making recompense. Israel would have a right to defend itself AFTER it had negotiated a fair settlement to the mess it played a leading role in creating in the first place. Additionally, it appears it was Israel that broke the ceasefire that led to this current violence. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians
The point that most pro-Israel commenters here (including those who pseudo-intellectually label people as anti-semites)are missing, is that there is clearly no ‘black & white’ about this conflict. And certainly no degree of ‘one side’s fault’ to excuse the wanton murder of civilians that is continuing in Gaza. Your points about Hamas are irrelevant. It is Israel’s, not Hamas’s, advanced technological weaponry that is causing civilian deaths on a masisve scale.
What is your view of Hamas themselves Mayoman – your opinion on the Israelis is there – fair enough – what of the the other player involved in the dispute – please note my question is Hamas – not the Palestinian people as a whole.
Harry
Running away again?
You do tend to take the huff awfy easy, especially when the questions are put to you.
but unfortunately all that footage in M&S;is now gone.
If the camera was using flash memory, you may be able to recover this data using a data recovery tool. Dont have the name of one too hand, but used one recently to do something similar
Mayoman: I wasn’t thinking of Dresden, but of (for example) the fire-bombing of Hamburg and the “Dam Busters” raid. Both these actions were bound to result in heavy civilian casualties, but both were justified – and justifiable – weren’t they? And, incidentally, there were no ‘independent’ observers of these actions. It occurs to me that you might be happier if, in response to Hamas rockets, Israel were to launch similar rockets deliberately against civilian targets. Would you?
Again, Democratic, I don’t think its black & white. The fact that Hamas was helped into being by Israel to undermine the PLO seems to be forgotten. This sort of meddling, like the US-Iraq fiasco, is seldom helpful. Additionally, there is the problem of ‘fighting fair’. Much is made of Hamas firing rockets into Israel, and therefore targetting civilians. I absolutely deplore this. No questions. An Israeli civilian is the same as a Plestinian civilian. However, I ask you to consider this: do you really think Hamas want to fire rockets a short distance into Israeli territories or do you think they would rather be flying F16s in the direction of Israeli military installations? So are you asking that Hamas should fight fairly? Make it a ‘clean’, miltary war over territory? How about the EU arms Hamas/Fatah to the degree the US arms Israel? And then let them go at it? Or do you believe that Hamas has no legitimate grievance? It has shown that it will deal with Israel, despite its rhetoric. This is simple real politik. Hamas is wrong to target civilians, but has the hardware to do little else. Israel is wrong to target civilians, but has the hardware to commit slaughter.
Anyone have an opinion to air on Hamas – just interested in how those who are “anti-war” or more accurately in many cases pro-Palestine see the ruling party there…any thoughts? Do they present any sort impediment to peace in the region etc or would you simply put all issues squarely down to Israeli policy / and or their existence?…
Israel were to launch similar rockets deliberately against civilian targets.
Like UN schools?
You may have forgotten Dresden, GA, but it seems appropriate since you bring up the justification for killing civilians. The nazis had to be defeated, but that makes Dresden no the less wrong, even if the others were, as you say, justified. The thing is, this is not wwii, and this is not two equal armies fighting a war. These are different circumstances and it is accepted by the International community that the Palestinians have legitimate grievances. Israel is doing far worse than firing rockets into Gaza. It is using high-grade weapons to target civilians, while trying to hide these crimes from the outside world.
So the questions remain: how many civiliam deaths will make you condemn Israel and what percentage of overall deaths is a tolerable proportion for the killing of civilians? I remind you again, you say it is ‘only a quarter’.
would you simply put all issues squarely down to Israeli policy
It is not that all “issues are down to Israeli policy” – it is that the vast majority of the destruction (in excess of 95%) is directly caused by Israeli actions.