Gaza: the death or birth of political moderation?
Over at the Guardian I’ve a posted on the Gaza crisis. Well, not exactly the Gaza crisis so much as the lack of political will on both sides to bring the the whole of problem of Israel/Palestine to an equitable solution. Both sides share a single problem: both are stuck in fundamentalist mode; without the least thought about how to get to that solution. The inuring to death on both sides is familiar to those of us in Northern Ireland who lived through the worst years of the Troubles. Afterwards it put me in mind of the words of an old friend and poet Phil Whitfield who was at the time of writing a young British Army doctor with the troops who liberated the death camp at Bergen Belsen:
Death of one is the death of all.
It is not the dead I pity.
That’s it in a nutshell. One democratic state in all historic Palestine, even a federal solution. But the present situation is a slow-walk into full-blown apartheid, and how depressing would that be. NO MORE SOUTH AFRICA’S!
miss wiz ,
‘It’s fairly obvious that Israel is opposed to a two-state solution, indeed its endgame would appear to be to ethnically cleanse the rest of the Palestinians out of Gaza, the West Bank and inside Israel itself, to effectively finish the job they started in 1948.’
Before Bush leaves office the more of Gaza the Israelis control the better at least from their negotiation strategic viewpoint . Their aim apears to be the destruction of the Palestinians as a people.
Jimmy sands ,
‘A creche perhaps?
Well the Israelis have killed 200 children already – collateral damage or the end justifying the means -take your pick . It’s okay when you have 200 nuclear bombs and a rich ally to keep you supplied .
Jimmy Sands,
“A creche” -eh ? Best not tell Hamas or they’ll be seeking to use that to launch their rockets at those pesky Jews that so few here care about.
I love the fantasy peddled here that Hamas supports a two-State solution. The fact that Hamas explicity contradicts this does not stop the bold Slugger Fedayeen from knowing better than Hamas.
Keep it going folks – we’re all Hezbollah now, right?
“That’s it in a nutshell. One democratic state in all historic Palestine, even a federal solution. But the present situation is a slow-walk into full-blown apartheid, and how depressing would that be. NO MORE SOUTH AFRICA’S”
One state (there would be war over the name before it even went any futher!)- with Palestinians and Israels playing happily together – nice image but a bit fairy tale I think considering the water under the bridge……
Can you in all all honestly , truly see it Ms Wiz on either side? Would the Palestinians even be interested? – couldn’t see Hamas biting unless they were running it of course. Pretty safe to say the Israeli’s wouldn’t touch it and therefore it will never happen….not the answer I think – some sort of 2 state solution is the only way despite your concerns. Catholics and Protestants here still can’t live in the same areas by enlarge even after a rudimentary settlement of our comparitively minor issues – I can only imagine the tensions such an idea would create over there….
David,
The point is not that Hamas formally accepts such a solution, plainly they don’t, but rather that they will have to come to terms with this, however grudgingly, and some of them at least have indicated that this particular penny has dropped.
what would you propose yourself to end the conflict?
The term ‘conflict’ does not accurately represent what is happening in Gaza, as it implies a symmetry that does not exist.
If Israel were to cease hostilities then the level of violence would be reduced to approximately 1 hundredth of its current magnitude.
“In the three years after the withdrawal from Gaza, 11 Israelis were killed by rocket fire. On the other hand, in 2005-7 alone, the IDF killed 1,290 Palestinians in Gaza, including 222 children.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine
It is therefore clear that the only way to significantly reduce the level of violence is for Israel to end its attacks.
Democratic,
If you are asking will Hamas publicly state they support Israel’s existence, the answer is no, but if you ask will they recognize the reality of the State of Israel then the answer is yes. They already do, after all they did not agree the recently ended ceasefire with David Vance, now did they? They agreed that ceasefire with the State of Israel.
At the end of this war they will agree a peace treaty [of sorts] with Israel, just as Hezbollah did two years ago. No matter how much some of Israelis overseas cheer leaders wish Hamas were like Al Qeada, they are not. Nor are they a proxy of Iran as they are not Shia muslims. Their mainstay is the muslim brotherhood in Egypt, which is a totally different kettle of fish.
Hamas in the forseeable future understand they cannot drive 5 million jews into the sea, thus they will imo accept willingly a two state solution and if Israel abides by any deal they will honour it, that is there way.
They are quiet happy engaging in democratic politics as the recent period has shown, indeed they have positivly thrived on it. Israel beyond its own border has never lifted a finger to democratize the middle east. Whereas, despite its weaknesses the Palestinian authority did their best to lay a democratic framework, until the USA and Israel did not like the peoples choice.
However being a religious party Hamas can also play the long game and like their Egyptian counterparts they will if necessary play the long game. They know all it will take for Israel’s economy and military machine to crash would be a change in US foreign policy. Thus if a viable two state solution is not on offer, they will endure until better days.
That Israel believed they could destroy hamas by entering Gaza just shows how wrong they can be. As the days go by this war is looking more like a rerun of Lebanon when Hezbullah gained all it wanted and Israel had to concede.
Even If Israel were to drive Hamas across the Egyptian border, which looks less likely by the day, they would still win as Murbarak would not be able to turn his guns upon them because the Egyptian people would hang him from a lamp-post.
As far as Israel is concerned this war is already lost.
Jimmy Sands,
Can you please provide names and details of when senior Hamas terrorists have indicated what you allege, namely the acceptance of peaceful co-existance with Israel?
Mick Hall,
Israel continually confounds the Jew-haters and will keep doing so.
Can you please provide names and details of when senior Hamas terrorists have indicated what you allege, namely the acceptance of peaceful co-existance with Israel?
“For several months there was virtually no crossborder violence, as both sides respected a ceasefire that had been arranged via Egyptian diplomacy, and Hamas kept the truce although Israel failed to ease the blockade as it had agreed to do. Beyond this Hamas offered to establish a long truce, even lasting up to ten years or longer, if Israel would agree to withdraw from all Palestinian territories occupied since 1967. It is significant that Israel failed even to acknowledge this Hamas diplomacy, although trustworthy citizens who visited Gaza were impressed by the seriousness of these diplomatic initiatives being put forward by Hamas.”
- Richard Falk, Special UN Rapporteur, 21 Dec 2008
http://www.brusselstribunal.org/Falk.htm
David
Khaled Meshaal reported in the Torygraph in 2006 and more recently Jimmy Carter says Meshaal told him the same thing.
David
This is not about traditional anti Semitism’, that is a European invention, any hatred by Arabs of Jews is because of the behavior of the State of Israel over the last 41 years and in some cases further back, unless you can see that, or even make an attempt to understand the arabs, you will never be part of the solution to the arab-jew tragedy, as your thought process is that of a European bogged down in isms.
By the way, the last time the Jewish state astounded anyone was 41 yeas ago and that led us to where we are today.
Wow, you boys and girls have been busy today! Do you folks have no jobs to go to? Armchair generals are we, eh, WR?
Who mentioned Israel not being around in 100 years? You have no idea what you are talking about! Israel has been around since the time Abraham’s son, Jacob, was renamed Israel. The descendants of Ismael, who was the son of Abraham’s concubine, now numbered among the Muslim Arabs, are still trying to destroy Jacob’s descendants. They will never succeed.
Jo,
The IRA did have the ‘wish’ but not the capability to destroy NI. Of course, the British military could have squished the IRA if given the orders to do so. The Israeli military is not restricted by such wussy PC limitations.
MH: ‘their only desire is to see dead muslims, they have hearts of stone that even a line of dead children cannot soften.’
I find that to be quite offensive. Have you ever seen a dead Muslim, Mike? I have seen two. One was a lady who died in my car due to childbirth complications as I tried to get her to hospital. The other was when I transported the body an old Muslim man to his home village so that he could be buried before sunset. Be careful when you hurl your insults.
Mike, Hamas ended the ceasefire. Hamas resumed firing rockets into Israel. Hamas uses schools, mosques, hospitals and built-up civilian areas to launch their attacks on Israelis. Hamas is responsible for the consequences.
Two-State Solution.
At the Annapolis Conference in November, 2007 Fatah (but not Hamas), the Israelis, and the US (for the first time), agreed on a two-state solution. Hamas is holding up progress. If the protagonists on the island of Ireland can agreed to a two state solution, then it should be possible for Palestine. But Hamas do not want that. They want the annihilation of Israel. Like a cancer, they need to be removed.
Khaled Meshaal?
Really Jimmy?
Is he related to the Khaled Meshaal who has called for a new intifada against Israel last month?
http://www.jewcy.com/tags/khaled_meshaal
Maybe he is a different Khaled Meshaal to the one who thinks the Holocaust was “exaggerated” and in no way related to the Khaled Meshaal who said that his organisation would continue to resist Israel and would not compromise its claims to all of historical Palestine.
But hey, Jimmy Carter knows better.
Jimmy Sands, Jimmy Carter – it’s dhimmi-time all the time on Slugger!
Richard Falk – is that any relation to the Richard Falk who endorses 9/11 conspiracy theories? Any relation to the renowned Jew-hater Richard Falk? Just wondering!
Try harder gang. If you seek to convey the idea that Hamas are anything other than Jew-hating Islamic savages you will continue to struggle.
“Is he related to the Khaled Meshaal who has called for a new intifada against Israel last month? ”
Yes he does seem to be a little less conciliatory lately. Can’t imagine why.
“But hey, Jimmy Carter knows better.”
Better than you? I’m inclined not to eliminate that possibility out of hand just yet, if that’s alright with you.
‘Richard Falk – is that any relation to the Richard Falk who endorses 9/11 conspiracy theories? Any relation to the renowned Jew-hater Richard Falk? Just wondering!’
Yeah Richard Falk, the jew-hating JEW.
Is it any wonder Mr Vance refuses to read this article. It destroys hi petty little argument.
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0428-04.htm
Runicter, the “blockade” is the de jure operation of a two-state solution. Remember, the Gaza Strip was never intended to be a state as it could never be self-sustaining. Sealing the borders between it and its neighbouring state is a direct consequence of the Oslo Accords when it was handed over to the Palestinian Authority. Things were never a s bad when the Gaza Strip was under the jurisdiction of Egypt or Israel. That’s what happens with states, kids – they come with borders. So, if you support the two-state solution, then you support the “blockade.” Ideally, the optimum solution is a two-nation one-state federal solution but that’s just the stuff of fantasy.
I’m sure some folks will enjoy Hamas’s Greatest Hits.
“Runicter, the “blockade” is the de jure operation of a two-state solution.”
No it isn’t. A genuine Palestinian state would control its border with Egypt as well as sea and air access. It is not a state. It is a native reservation.
“I’m sure some folks will enjoy Hamas’s Greatest Hits.”
It’s a video of a religious of a ranting religious nut calling for the destruction of Rome. I’d've thought you’d be pleased.
It is not a state. It is a sewer infested by Islamic terrorists and those who vote for them, instantly deserving the support of the Slugger Fedayeen.
PS. Looking forward to Slugger coverage of this Sunday’s prayer rally IN Dublin in SUPPORT of Israel. Perhaps no flag burning or kids dressed up as killers so less likely of the support from those on this site.
Umpire
New Thread please!!
“No it isn’t. A genuine Palestinian state would control its border with Egypt as well as sea and air access. It is not a state. It is a native reservation.”
The point sailed over your head like that Mickey Mouse hand that stops you from going on the fun rides at Disney, eh?
Israel didn’t impose any “blockade” on the Gaza Strip. That is a consequence of the Oslo Accords of 1993 which gave jurisdiction of it to the Palestinian Authority. This is reinforced by the 2003 Roadmap for Peace which declared it to be part of a permanent two-state solution.
It matters not if the Palestinian Authority builds a border or if Israel builds it, since the principle is conceded that either or both are entitled to build a border between separate states. I dare say that you will have just as hard a task getting around the Mexican/US border as you have with Gaza/Israel.
Are you beginning to grasp it now? A two-state solution defines a border, and a border may be termed a “blockade” or whatever else you want to call it. Indeed, the Palestinians using an open border to attack a neighbouring state guaranteed that Israel would exercise its right to defend its borders, locking them shut.
The Gaza Strip came into being in 1949 as a refugee zone. It was never intended, as I said, that the Gaza Strip should be a state as it could never be self-sustaining. While its final status has yet to be determined, there is no doubt – none – that the Gaza Strip is utterly incapable of being self-sustaining and that it will remain as an overcrowded ghetto. That is the de jure reality of the two-state solution.
1948, rather
Dave are you saying the two state solution would have Israel blockading Gaza’s Mediterranean coastline in perpetuity? Oslo never mentioned anything about that IIRC.
Maritime rights to Mediterranean Sea are under Israeli administration under the Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement – all subject to final agreement of the two-state solution. Gaza’s main use for it is to pump 60 million litres of raw sewage into it per year, thereby ensuring that it will be of little use to Palestinians when they eventually acquire the rights to it.
‘A two-state solution defines a border, and a border may be termed a “blockade” or whatever else you want to call it.’
‘all subject to final agreement of the two-state solution.’
So the current blockade which the Israelis have been imposing on Gaza, including the closing of Gaza’z coastline is not the same as what would occur under the final two-state solution. Because undoubtedly the Palestinians would have control of their own coastline if a final settlement is ever reached. Unless you envisage a final two state solution where the Israelis will bein of control Gaza’s coastline in perpetuity?
“I dare say that you will have just as hard a task getting around the Mexican/US border as you have with Gaza/Israel.
Are you beginning to grasp it now? ”
I am thanks. I now understand that you are a moron.
To pursue your “analogy” Mexico is of course entitled to control its border with the US. It is not however entitled to control the US border with Canada, US airspace or US ports. Is any of this getting through?
6countyprod,
“Who mentioned Israel not being around in 100 years? You have no idea what you are talking about! Israel has been around since the time Abraham’s son, Jacob, was renamed Israel. The descendants of Ismael, who was the son of Abraham’s concubine, now numbered among the Muslim Arabs, are still trying to destroy Jacob’s descendants. They will never succeed.”
I thought all hardcore “prods” believe the Rapture can only happen once the state of Israel is destroyed.
“I am thanks.”
No, I don’t think you are. Since a two-state solution mandates a border, it mandates a “blockade” by default.
“To pursue your ‘analogy’ Mexico is of course entitled to control its border with the US. It is not however entitled to control the US border with Canada, US airspace or US ports. Is any of this getting through?”
That’s a solid line of reasoning. Just don’t sneeze on it or it might blow away as easily as the white powder that gave rise to it. The Gaza Strip doesn’t have any maritime rights to Mediterranean Sea, so it is Israel’s border. It has no such rights under the Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement and there is no binding obligation on Israel to cede it such rights. That is what you support, unless you have a plan that you’d like to pull out of your ass and submit to the parties for further consideration. Did that bit sink in?
What you fail to grasp is that Gaza will not be self-sustaining even if it is granted maritime rights to Mediterranean Sea – or, indeed, granted air space rights. In addition, what difference is maritime rights to Mediterranean Sea going to make to Gazans whose place of work is in Israel or Egypt? Asbolutely none. Their entry into either neighbouring country is entirely dependent on the discretion of those states, and won’t be circumvented by a quick boat ride to get around the land border. The two-state solution means that the inhabitants of the Gaza Strip must ensure a subsistence living in perpetutiy that is entirely dependent on the charity of other states.
“I now understand that you are a moron.”
Right, said the ‘genius’ who thinks that Gaza will suddenly become self-sustaining rather than existing in perpetual penury if Israel grants it maritime rights to Mediterranean Sea. No, Einstein, it’ll still be dependent on Israel for the bare bones of its economy. So, you can cackle like a hen, but can you lay eggs?
Wilde Rover, nuclear weapons ensure that the state of Israel will still be there in 100 years. That’s the bottom line.
“Unless you envisage a final two state solution where the Israelis will bein of control Gaza’s coastline in perpetuity?”
When the Royal Navy could take on anybody, and do several opponents at the same time,
they had the potential to blockade the world, and were not shy of applying it.
The Israelis, tend to ask ‘can we’? rather than ‘should we’? That is their mindset.
The (in extremis) solution is for the Palestinians to get a navy or to borrow one as the Americans did at the (2nd) Battle of the Virginia Capes.
Israel dominates that area as a de facto proposition.
Gregory
Again, Greg, you are falling into the trap of blaming Israel for a West-imposed two-state solution. It is the US, UN, EU, et al, who mandated that Palestinians be partitioned from Israelis in a glorified refugee camp. The transfer of jurisdiction from Israel to the Palestinian Authority has had a devastating impact on the economy of Gaza, resulting in greater impoverishment, reinforced the separation between Palestinians and Israelis, and left them detached from an economy that they have always depended upon for economic survival. As I tried (patiently) to point out to the thickoes (no names mentioned) states = borders = ‘blockades’ = penury.
I wonder how many other fake videos and false reports have been foisted upon an unsuspecting and gullible public by the major media outlets?
“It is not a state. It is a sewer infested by Islamic terrorists and those who vote for them”
So mass murder and “cleansing” of this “infestation” is acceptable?
I trust that fellow bloggers will take note of how Donaghcloney is similarly “infested” by advocates of mass murder.
Hardly imaginable that such words would by uttered by the Jesus Christ that such “Christians” believe in, eh?
Dave,
“Wilde Rover, nuclear weapons ensure that the state of Israel will still be there in 100 years. That’s the bottom line.
”
The USSR also had nukes.
Also, I’m not quite sure of the value of having nuclear weapons if the countries you may use them against are right beside you.
An atomic version of shooting yourself in the foot?
It’s interesting and somewhat enlightening to hear Driftwood plead for the termination of this thread.
Is he genuinely concerned about pursuing new avenues, or is he trying to stifle debate and the exposure of the true nature of Hamas?
When the current Gaza events started to unfold, my first contribution posed a series of the questions:
‘…But what strikes me most is that, when Muslim terrorists attacked India a few weeks ago and systematically slaughtered hundreds of innocent people and deliberately targeted a very small Jewish community in Mumbai (the Rabbi and his pregnant wife at Nariman House were tortured, sexually assaulted and their genitalia mutilated before being murdered) there were no public protest in Belfast or posts on Slugger about it. Why?’
‘…When the Palestinians poured hundreds of rockets into Israel over the past week, there was no post on Slugger about it.? Why?’
‘…Why does Israeli action merit a post on Slugger, and Muslim action not? Does Slugger have a prohibition on reporting on Islamic terrorism?’
None of my questions were addressed or answered.
Now, two weeks and several Slugger ‘Gaza’ threads later, maybe Slugger is willing to introduce a little balance to the site. After all, those venerable folks at the Guardian say that Slugger is an “Excellent, balanced weblog on Northern Ireland” Is it really?
If so, how about a thread on the recent publication of the communications between the Muslim terrorists in Mumbai who slaughtered hundreds of innocents in cold blood, encouraged and egged on by their handlers in Pakistan. Maybe we can discuss the rise and fall of AQ. But I don’t think I will hold my breath.
David Vance
‘You should consider yourself very fortunate that your useful idiot forbears in WW2 did not prevail, otherwise your placards last night might well have been written in German (if, that is, you had been allowed out to demo after Gestapo curfew).’
I’d imagine David that you’d have flourished very well in any future Britain that befell Nazi conquest. With your enthusiasm and talents I’ve no doubt some sort of government job would have been on the cards.
The links between Palestine/Israel and the NI conflict are longstanding, in terms of self-perception, intractability and the fact that some see the military aspects as providing a model to deal with all conflict by deploying the catchall epithet of “terrorism”.
The mass murder in India, Indonesia, Spain and NY are all appalling aspects of a global conflict which reaches far beyond this local squabble. Therefore not every killing that takes place across the world, however deplorable is connected to NI conflict and therefore appropriate to include in a site which is primarily concerned with NI politics and culture.
That culture is identified by people here with the Palestine/Israeli conflict in ways which the Mumbai mass murder/the Madrid train bombings are not.
“As I tried (patiently) to point out to the thickoes (no names mentioned) states = borders = ‘blockades’ = penury.”
Dave as Jimmy has said
“To pursue your “analogy” Mexico is of course entitled to control its border with the US. It is not however entitled to control the US border with Canada, US airspace or US ports. Is any of this getting through?”
A final two-state solution would no doubt involve the Palestinians controlling their own maritime border in Gaza. As the Israeli blockade currently means they don’t (we don’t have a final viable two-state solution), your opinion that states=borders=blockade isn’t true.
‘…But what strikes me most is that, when Muslim terrorists attacked India a few weeks ago and systematically slaughtered hundreds of innocent people and deliberately targeted a very small Jewish community in Mumbai (the Rabbi and his pregnant wife at Nariman House were tortured, sexually assaulted and their genitalia mutilated before being murdered) there were no public protest in Belfast or posts on Slugger about it. Why?’
Because the country involved in Mumbai does not get a blank cheque from the USA every year. It were not founded by western colonists through the ethnic cleansing of an indigenous people. it was not esblished in part to assuage the guilt of the west. Furthermore we are not contiually told that said state is a beacon of democracy and represents the western values we hold dear. Also mumbai was carried out by an illegal organisation. What we have in Palestine is a ‘State’ carrying out atrocities. Its pretty simple 6cp.
‘…When the Palestinians poured hundreds of rockets into Israel over the past week, there was no post on Slugger about it.? Why?’
How many people were killed by said rockets?
You could ask how come the was no thread on regarding the 4th and 17th of Nov when Israel attacked Gaza killing 10 Palestinians.
‘…Why does Israeli action merit a post on Slugger, and Muslim action not? Does Slugger have a prohibition on reporting on Islamic terrorism?’
Asked and answered (First)
It was not*
Jo: ‘The links between Palestine/Israel and the NI conflict are longstanding…
…That culture is identified by people here with the Palestine/Israeli conflict in ways which the Mumbai mass murder/the Madrid train bombings are not.’
So, Jo, it is permissible to promote the Palestinian side of things because they, along with Libya and others, had a part in the NI conflict because of their involvement in training Irish republicans in the fine art of murder and mayhem, whereas the Israeli cause should not be defended or alluded to because they have had no direct involvement in NI. Is that what you are saying?
Of course, the very nature of previous (and maybe ongoing – who knows) Irish republican involvement in international terrorism makes worldwide terrorism of interest. Irish republicans are closely identified with Palestinian terrorism (and by extension Muslim terror), the Colonel, left-wing guerrillas in Colombia and oppressive dictators in Cuba, whereas Unionists identify more with the victims of such horrible people.
We no longer live in splendid isolation, we live in a global village. What goes on in Gaza, Mumbai or Bali impacts NI too. Extreme Islamists want to change our way of life by force and impose their 7th century ideology on us. They need to be exposed and resisted.
Runicter, the “blockade” is the de jure operation of a two-state solution.
It is quite clear that this is a minority view and would not survive as part of any final agreement.
Ideally, the optimum solution is a two-nation one-state federal solution but that’s just the stuff of fantasy.
You seem to be obsessed with ethnically-defined ‘nationhood’. This is a characteristic of Zionism and its adherents. There is no reason why a one state solution would have to contain two formalised nations.
This concept of a modern Jewish nation in Palestine is a recent invention of the West, and is not likely to be sustainable in the longer term.
“Extreme Islamists want to change our way of life by force and impose their 7th century ideology on us. They need to be exposed and resisted.”
Islam and the people you mention are not one and the same.
Nor is Gaza a sewer of terrorism, nor are the children killed there terrorists.
These things are wrong, as wrong as anything that happened in Mumbai or Madrid, London or NY.
Those who cheer on the murder of children, whereever those children die, also need to be exposed and resisted.
6countyprod,
“We no longer live in splendid isolation, we live in a global village. What goes on in Gaza, Mumbai or Bali impacts NI too. Extreme Islamists want to change our way of life by force and impose their 7th century ideology on us. They need to be exposed and resisted.”
Sounds a lot like “And if you’re not good little boys and girls, the bogeyman will get you.”
Were you around in the 1980s?
I can just imagine your spiel.
“Extreme commies want to change our way of life by force and impose their godless ideology on us. They need to be exposed and resisted, especially by employing the services of the brave mujahideen freedom fighters.”
Or maybe you thought we have always been at war with Eastasia?
“A final two-state solution would no doubt involve the Palestinians controlling their own maritime border in Gaza. As the Israeli blockade currently means they don’t (we don’t have a final viable two-state solution), your opinion that states=borders=blockade isn’t true.” – RS
But your pal Jimmy wasn’t yapping about the future, was he? Nope, he imagined in his version of the analogy that Gaza had sovereignty over an area that Israel has sovereignty over, i.e the Mediterranean Sea.
You may be correct that Gaza will gain sovereignty over that area (and if you read my previous post to you, I said “when” and not if) as that is the status of the Oslo agreement. You should also note that I use ‘blockade’ with brackets around it in all previous mentions of it, which should indicate that the meaning is altered. I have already explained that it is altered to mean that it is seperated from those it is economically dependent upon (Israel).
“This is a characteristic of Zionism and its adherents.” – runicter
Do you reckon so? With those sort of deductive reasoning powers, I think you should be drafted into the army’s lobotomized human minesweeper program.
“Right, said the ‘genius’ who thinks that Gaza will suddenly become self-sustaining rather than existing in perpetual penury if Israel grants it maritime rights to Mediterranean Sea.”
I said this when exactly?
I said ‘thinks’, as there is an underlying assumption that the ‘blockade’ is the cause of the ghettoisation of Gaza rather than that being a direct policy of two-state resolution process. When did those borders go up? They went up in the form of a 40-mile barbed wire fence and sinper zone right after the Oslo accords. While they were going up, economic output in Gaza was going down, declining 36% in the first 5 years (and Gazan per capita income along with it). The effect of those borders – which are the effect of a two-state solution – was to plunge that region into poverty levels not seen outside of Africa. Of coure, after the peacemakers had buggered off back to the West, it became expedient to point the finger of blame for that outcome at Israel.
So WR, you reckon AQ and Islamic fundmentalists do not want to impose their 7th century worldview on the rest of us? Oceania was at war with Eurasia; therefore Oceania had always been at war with Eurasia.
A few other choice quotes from Mr Orwell:
-All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting. (probably applies to all/most Slugger posters)
-Political language… is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind.
-The Catholic and the Communist (and you could probably add the Liberal) are alike in assuming that an opponent cannot be both honest and intelligent.
-The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.
-Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, ‘he that is not with me is against me.
6cp,
“So WR, you reckon AQ and Islamic fundmentalists do not want to impose their 7th century worldview on the rest of us?”
I’m sure some of these groups do. What I’m not sure about is the origins of these groups. When you run out of enemies you have to invent them to keep the population of the world cowed.
Divide and conquer is a pretty solid tactic.