And now for something completely different – Irish, British or Northern Irish?
The Newsletter reported yesterday that almost a quarter of Catholics consider themselves Northern Irish (http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/YOUR-VIEWS-Would-you-describe.4751380.jp). This throws up an interesting question as to how NI is changing (and for the better). I have no doubt that it is and the rapidity of that change is more acute when the Executive meets than when it doesn’t. The GFA’s brilliance was it reconciled the right to be Irish, British and Northern Irish within an agreed constitutional settlement for at least a generation. Its greatest defect was that it allowed one to be British, Irish or Northern Irish (or a mixture of the same) and argue for each position – a united Ireland, the Union, the good of NI – for at least a generation. Perhaps the future should not be seen in absolutes or for all time. Perhaps, in our situation, a generation is as good as it gets. And our generation will have to renegotiate something different!
It all depends on your location when asked the question.
If you are Los Angeles, Dublin or London the answer may well be very different than from standing in Belfast, Newry or Ballymena.
The answer is in fact geared towards the person asking the question and how it is phrased.
Q. What is your nationality – the answer is likely to be British or Irish
Q. Where do you come from – there are several possibilities – Britain, United Kingdom, Ireland or Northern Ireland. In Los Angeles the questioner may well not understand the term Northern Ireland or Unirted Kingdom, so it is probably Britain or Ireland. Although I am a supporter of the United Kingdom I would normally answer Ireland as that is the island in which I live.
So there is no real answer to the question which will fit all people at all times
“One quick question – if so many Catholics define themselves as Northern Irish, then why is there no demonstrable groundswell of support, for example, the Northern Ireland football team? The vast majority of football supporters that I witness in Newry, like myself, wear Republic shirts and are totally indiffferent to Northern Ireland.”
There is no groundswell of support because the vast majority of Nationalists are happy supporting the Ireland team. I suppose it better reflects their Nationality and has players from all parts of the Island playing for the team, just like the majority of sports on this Island, Rugby, hockey, boxing, cycling etc…
I would also presume that the almost exclusively Unionist symbolism on show at Windsor Park would be less than attractive to the Nationalist community.
‘The Newsletter reported yesterday…..’
Sorry, I nodded off after that !
Yeah we are proud of our own really. Indeed counties as we do differ in ways. Yes we are part of europe but do we personally feel European?
..not taking sides here or arguing, but maybe Cian means how Cork people in general are proud of being/been far away from the Dublin parliament etc and how there’s the view that Corks the real capital, more Irish and more significant. ANd very proud of the southern southern accent . – or the deep south! (god we really are influenced by those Americans)
The ‘Peoples Republic of Cork’.
The joke here is that two Dubs were discussing Cork people around the time Keane walked out on Ireland in Saipan.
“I’ve met a lot of Cork people. Nice people, all of them. Very nice. But… why do they hate the Irish?”
If this survey of 1179 people had been in Irish and Ulster-Scots they would have had a much more accurate result ….. err …maybe not ….do 1179 people actually speak Irish or Ulster-Scots?
Dublin voter,
When I am in Dublin I am frequently asked what part of Scotland I am from.
You begin to wonder.
Bring back the Munster Republic.
Reader: Absolutely not – Citizenship may be a technicality, but Political Identity is personal. In between, we have the fuzzy territory of Geographical Identity. In my view, the GFA took the pressure off those sorts of decisions – and was long overdue.
You say: “Citizenship may be a technicality” and I agree, your citizenship is technically British if you were born in Northern Ireland post partition, despite the fact you might hold an Irish passport too- and refuse to hold a British one. Holding a passport is not indicative in this instance of nationality. It just means you are eligible for more than one.
I think at one time allowing for a choice of political identity was a relevant form of protest, I don’t think so anymore. Certainly not since the GFA. If you were born in Portugal could you still be ‘technically’ Portugese, but describe yourself legitimately as having an Irish personal identity?
This is all of course, against the background that if you were born in Northern Ireland you are Irish anyway. (Just not a citizen of the Republic of Ireland, until such times as a vote may change that).
“I suppose it better reflects their Nationality and has players from all parts of the Island playing for the team,”
Except of course the Protestant majority parts…..
To clarify my third paragraph- I used Readers words which have muddled my own a little. I am agreeing that you can and should have an Irish identity, but are also British. Perhaps we should just accept it as a privilege?
I’m confusing myself at this point. All I originally wanted to say is I think Northern Irish is a bit naff- British and Irish are equally valid. Just like Scottish and British are.
In the debate about “British” identity it is confusing in each of the home countries as it seems to merely cover over the identities of the Irish, English, Welsh and Scots- identities that have not and should not go away.
Apologies for confusion.
Nomad
I used Readers words which have muddled my own a little. I am agreeing that you can and should have an Irish identity, but are also British. Perhaps we should just accept it as a privilege?
I’m not British and don’t consider it a “privilege”. You have it exactly the wrong way round. The British citizenship is a technicality, and not my Irish nationality.
Happy for anyone else to be what they want. I don’t define them. Please don’t try and define me. kthanksbye.
Kensei,
The British citizenship is a technicality, and not my Irish nationality.
If you are defined by your nationality then I am sorry. I enjoy much of what you write, it’s provocative and often perfectly logical. I agree with much of it. But here I respectfully disagree. There isn’t much middle ground here.. perhaps we’d agree more often on RLLMUK!
“Except of course the Protestant majority parts…..”
Posted by Democratic
Anyone from any part of Ireland is welcome to play for Ireland.
ggn ,
‘I am in Dublin I am frequently asked what part of Scotland I am from.’
You begin to wonder.
Imagination is all you need . Next time you are asked tell them you are not from Scotland but from North Western Britain
Whenever I’m asked am I from the North or South I reply in the geographically correct manner by sayin the ‘East’
I quite liked the News Letter’s final poser for its readership:
Do the findings(‘almost 1 in four Roman Keth-olics describe themselves as Northern Irish’) indicate an erosion of Britishness in Northern Ireland?
I don’t know why Darwin Templeton doesn’t get on with it and just relaunch the paper under a new title of Daily Themmuns?
“Except of course the Protestant majority parts…..”
Posted by Democratic
Funny how Alan Kernaghan, who grew up in Bangor and supported Linfield and Rangers as a boy was part of the Ireland team who qualified for the World Cup in 1994. The only problem he faced, was having to put up with the vile abuse he got from Northern Ireland fans.
Who actually buys the newsletter besides a few loyalist chav types. Its been full of sensationalist rubbish every time i bought it (all two times).(Maybe buying it made me a unionist in the eyes of who ever wrote this article) I dont rate its journalistic integrity much. Its news articles come across to me as the crazed mumblings of a few headjob lunatics. Just a few thoughts there…. feel free to play the man on this one
How can anyone be Northern Irish? or even Southern Irish? Hopefully, we don’t see much more of this idiotic identity in the future because it benefits noone.
When N.Ireland was formed we’d have been better giving it a unique identity, instead of being told what to do by Westminster.
Westminster didn’t give the people of Ulster a say in the naming of their country, the Ulster folk had to loose their Ulsterness and replace it with some sort of Irishness, when the country was officially named N.Ireland. Carson and Craig wanted to call it called Ulster, but Westminster refused.
Westminster knew fine well the Ulster people couldn’t survive without the Union, so Carson and Craig had no other option but let Westminster decide the fait for N.Ireland.
Nomad
If you are defined by your nationality then I am sorry. I enjoy much of what you write, it’s provocative and often perfectly logical. I agree with much of it. But here I respectfully disagree. There isn’t much middle ground here.. perhaps we’d agree more often on RLLMUK!
I am not “defined” by nationality. It is merely an important component of many that makes up me. And that important component is Irish and Republican. I can’t make myself something I’m not. I don’t ask anyone else to make themselves something they are not. I simply like to have my position respected.
On rllmuk,… that would depend on whether you’re in the “Wii has no good games camp” or not
I think ‘hearts and minds’ has run its course, judging by tonights disscussion. The term ‘northern irish’, is a unionist absolutism. The only reason that a small minority of nationalists use that term is simply because they are bombarded with it every single day.
To try and parade the findings of this poll as some seismic change in nationalist thinking is beyond a joke. So whom do ‘H&Ms;’ decree to be suitable learnered commentators on this subject? Yip, messers McGimpsey and O’Doherty. Two bastions of impartiality!
Sorry Mr O’Doherty, but nobody that I know, who are from a nationalist perspective…’leapt off the couch..’!
Also, Mr.Thompson could not contain himself in his interveiw with Reg Empey, to demand a purely sectarian approach to the next general election(some years off). When will the BBC realise that their obsession with fermanagh&south;tyrone and belfast south is so obviously sectarian and devisive?
If decent people, one day , turn a blind eye to this overt propaganda, then yes, we will all be ‘northern Irish’ and mindless.
Ah tis great to be able to say that I’m IRISH.
No extra explanations needed!
UMH, You give the impression that when asked about your nationality you’d prefer to say that your not Irish but your from Ulster instead. Aye indeed like an Englishman saying that he’s not English but he’s from Cornwall! Kinda crazy, but anyway each to their own! I’ll always recognize you as a British citizen in Ireland or Ulster in any way!
BTW, Remember Northern Ireland could not have been called simply ‘Ulster’ instead, as you suggest, for as you know 3 counties of Ulster are part of the jurisdiction of the Republic of Ireland! Note: Part of Ulster is a part of Eire today!
Northern Ireland would have to be called ‘Part of Ulster’ or something like that, making refererence to the fact that it is not all of Ulaid that is part of the Anglocentric UK today.
I think that is why the simple name of ‘Northern Ireland’ was chosen in the end! After all it is northern Ireland!
BTW, I dunno how some Irish Nationalists of ‘NI’ might be developing this identity ‘quandary’ (if you could call it a quandary as such) of what to call themselves like the British Ulster Unionists.
I’m sure ‘Irish’ would suffice as well!
“Anyone is welcome to play for “Ireland” (meaning ROI football team)”
Yeah so long as you stand for the anthem and have no problem with the flag – same main problem Nationalists claim to have with the NI team then……..
As for Alan Kernaghan – sure such an exception proves me completely wrong of course that Northern Prods choose not to declare for the Republic team – well done…..
Greagoir O Frainclin: Aye indeed like an Englishman saying that he’s not English but he’s from Cornwall! Kinda crazy, but anyway each to their own!
Funny you should say that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mebyon_Kernow
I would have expected an Irish nationalist to be a bit less dismissive.
“I had no problems pulling on the Republic shirt,” he reflects. “I was simply furthering my career. There was always a lingering tension on the periphery. Some Republic of Ireland fans and journalists didn’t like it. I dealt with it as I deal with it now – it didn’t matter to me.”
An extract from an interview for the Daily Scotsman from Alan Kernaghan…..just for you Lee.
Greagoir O Frainclin: BTW, Remember Northern Ireland could not have been called simply ‘Ulster’ instead, as you suggest, for as you know 3 counties of Ulster are part of the jurisdiction of the Republic of Ireland!
And yet the 26 counties named themselves ‘Ireland’, and still do in the post-GFA era with the new and improved Articles 2 and 3. Same thing.
John Whyte published some stats for 1986 on British, Irish, Ulster, Northern Irish, other:
Protestants
1986: 65 – 3 – 14 – 11 – 7
2007: 61 – 4 – 5 – 27 – 3
Catholics
1986: 6 – 61 – 1 – 20 – 12
2007: 9 – 62 – 1 – 23 – 5
Bearing in mind Mark’s perfectly valid reservations about the reliability of the sample Catholics have changed very little whereas Protestants have moved from the Ulster label towards the Northern Irish one.
Catholics appear to be a little bit more comfortable with the British label than Protestants are with the Irish one.
The chasm between each is just about as wide as ever.
“And yet the 26 counties named themselves ‘Ireland’, and still do in the post-GFA era with the new and improved Articles 2 and 3. Same thing.”
Well the 26 counties has been called alot of things, post partition, as you know – The Free State, Eire, The Republic of Ireland. I think people casually abbreviate the name by simply refering to the 26 counties as Ireland here at home or when abroad. I think most folk here are quite comfortable that they come from the Republic of Ireland and are not always super conscious of the political overtones, unlike some folk.
WHY?… are Unionists aghast and offended by this as well?
Would you rather the 26 counties be refered to as just simply ‘the Republic’ instead so as not to offend some of the Unionist community of Northern Ireland?
Sure why do Unionists say then that Ulster is British when 3 of the 9 counties of Ulster are within the jurisdiction of the Republic of Ireland?
“I would have expected an Irish nationalist to be a bit less dismissive.”
I’m sure when Cornish folk are abroad they refer to themselves as ‘English’ – belonging to the country of England. Regional differences are put on hold!
I doubt very much you’d get a Cornish person booing England at any sport either!
Greagoir O Frainclin: I think people casually abbreviate the name by simply refering to the 26 counties as Ireland here at home or when abroad.
It’s time you re-read Article 4 of your constitution. Stormont could have done the same, but didn’t. And as for abbreviations and informal usage – anyone has that right, including unionists. I don’t really use the term ‘Ulster’ myself, but I will defend anyone’s right to use it against someone who will refer to the 26 counties as ‘Ireland’.
After all, the other 6 of the 32 counties of Ireland are under the jurisdiction of the UK…
Reader, No need for me to re-read anything. I’m quite happy to say that I’m from ‘Ireland’ to anyway, but just for you and so as you won’t be offended, I will say that I am from ‘the REPUBLIC of Ireland’ Sure you can say that you are from ‘Ireland’ too if you want, since you are from that northern part of the island of Ireland, known as Northern Ireland!
BTW there is a substantial amount of folk from Northern Ireland who would use the term of just ‘Ireland’ as well!
****Reader, No need for me to re-read anything. I’m quite happy to say that I’m from ‘Ireland’ to anyone, but just for you and so as you won’t be offended, I will say that I am from ‘the REPUBLIC of Ireland’ Sure you can say that you are from ‘Ireland’ too if you want, since you are from that northern part of the island of Ireland, known as Northern Ireland!
BTW there is a substantial amount of folk from Northern Ireland who would use the term of just ‘Ireland’ or ‘Irish’ as well!
(Delete previous post moderator, pleeze)
@Greagoir O Frainclin
A strangely argument undermining place to pick. If you go to Cornwall you’ll actually find a good lot of people who say they are Cornish and not English.
“A strangely argument undermining place to pick. If you go to Cornwall you’ll actually find a good lot of people who say they are Cornish and not English.”
Still, there’s plenty of English jerseys to be seen there when England are playing in soccer, or rugby.
“[i]It’s time you re-read Article 4 of your constitution. Stormont could have done the same, but didn’t.”[/i]
Good point reader, the change in Article 4 is intriguing. It shows how the Dublin Government were still after N.Ireland’s territory and they would use every trick in the book to get it. If they continued to call the state ‘Eire’ this would give credibility to two different countries on the island, but the Dublin Government wanted it all and they called their state after the island.
It’s a wonder they didn’t go one step further and call their state the British Isles.
UMH,
Oh BTW Ulster is your homeland, which part is that then Cavan, Monaghan, Donegal etc….?
Some fascinating place names in The Isles:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1092433/How-Britain-got-Great-Land-Tattooed-The-astonishing-map-reveals-origins-place-names.html
‘It’s a wonder they didn’t go one step further and call their state the British Isles.’
Why would they, assuming ownership of land and people against their will isn’t a particularly Irish trait now is it?
“[i]Why would they, assuming ownership of land and people against their will isn’t a particularly Irish trait now is it?”[/i]
Ulster isn’t there’s, it never was, so they can keep their landgrabbing hands off it, and the quicker they learn this, the quicker their humiliation will last.
“Ulster isn’t there’s, it never was, so they can keep their landgrabbing hands off it, and the quicker they learn this, the quicker their humiliation will last.”
In other words UMH, what you really mean is keep Ulster for the English and an English administration in London!