Confusion over what Ireland really is, and what it once was…
Gavin points to a graph that tells the awful truth about the Irish Republic’s housing market… Elsewhere the same site records An estimated 4,239,848 people live in Ireland… Yep, it seems we have quite disappeared from sight and mind… No wait, “In 1841, before the famine, the population peaked at 8 million…” Some creative accountancy there. Come on guys, make your minds up and stick with it!!
Mick,
Northerners now have automatic rights to citizenship, but not the right to pay taxes or be represented in the Dail.
Again you mix state and nation. If you don’t live in a state you generally don’t pay its taxes. And even if the southern state denied you its citizenship that would not in any way dilute your Irishness. The southern state is not ‘Ireland’ in the broad sense, it is a state in Ireland that calls itself Ireland. No more, no less.
Few nationalists in Northern Ireland refer to the south as ‘Ireland’. To do so would be tantamount to sawing off the branch you were sitting on.
Indeed.
Few nationalists in the south refer to their own territorial state as the Republic these days either. It is Ireland, as stated in the Bunreacht; regardless of how anyone feels about it.
True too. Bur so what? That doesn’t mean that the southern state represents the maximum extent of ‘Ireland’. It represents (at the risk of sounding repetitive) only a state in Ireland that calls itself Ireland.
The word Ireland means different things in different contexts. I really don’t see what is so hard about that. To many in the south it means the State for practical purposes. In other contexts it means the nation, or the island.
When we talk of the Irish Hare, or Irish music, or Irish people, we almost always have the whole country (island/32 counties) in mind. When we talk of the Irish government we mean only Dublin, never Belfast. Issues like ‘the population of Ireland’ are bound to cause problems, as two different interpretations are equally valid.
The word Ireland means different things in different contexts. I really don’t see what is so hard about that.
One problem is that you have North/South bodies talking about “Northern Ireland and Ireland” – an absurd phrase which manages to be both confusing and offensive at the same time.
As a northern nationalist I do not appreciate people telling me that Ireland stops at the border – in any context.
Horseman, NI represents the overlap of two ‘nations’.
“[i]The word Ireland means different things in different contexts. I really don’t see what is so hard about that.”[/i]
WHAT ABOUT TELLING US WHAT THE FUCKING WORD IRELAND ACTUALLY MEANS?…..WHERE DID IT COME FROM?
“Because the Republic of Ireland renounced it claim to sovereignty over the territory of Northern Ireland at the request of northern Irish nationalists, the term ‘Ireland’ could no longer refer to the Republic of Ireland with the claim of sovereignty remaining implicit, so they clarified it to mean the ‘island of Ireland’ with the recognition that there were two separate states on one island. “ – Dave
“The bizarre definitions you profer above, do not square with Bunreacht na hÉireann, which has legal primacy.” – Mack
Then I suggest you actually read the Constitution. It gives the name of the State as Ireland, and makes clear in Articles 2 & 3 that the State does not include the territory of Northern Ireland. It accepts that there are two sovereign states on the ‘island of Ireland’ and it no longer makes any claim to the sovereign territory of the other state.
The unamended Articles 2 & 3 were:
Article 2.
The national territory consists of the whole island of Ireland, its islands and the territorial seas.
Article 3.
Pending the re-integration of the national territory, and without prejudice to the right of the Parliament and Government established by this Constitution to exercise jurisdiction over the whole of that territory, the laws enacted by that Parliament shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws of Saorstát Éireann and the like extra-territorial effect.
Amended to remove the claim of the Republic of Ireland to sovereignty over the territory of Northern Ireland:
Article 2
It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage.
Article 3
It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island. Until then, the laws enacted by the Parliament established by this Constitution shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws enacted by the Parliament that existed immediately before the coming into operation of this Constitution.
“Dave – there’s no need to panic over any of this.” – Mack
Who is panicking? I’m happy to point out that there is a lot of propaganda in play, and that it is in play because very organised and focused people have put it into play for ulterior purposes. I don’t believe that the Irish nation will ever be stupid enough to impose any constraints on its right to self-determination or that those who seek to proffer British nationalism as being entitled to parity with Irish nationalism will have much luck with the process. It remains the case that Irish nation is being encouraged to subjugate and censor itself and that such is de facto denial of self-determination – it might be cleverly done so that it looks like it is the choice of the Irish nation (and, ergo, a de jure expression of self-determination) but it actually being done by hidden hands. If you think that MI5’s budget of 800 million a year spend on ‘the Irish question’ was spent on office furniture and executive cars rather than on corrupting influential figures in politics and the media or other sectors through bribery then you probably think that that guitar you got as a kid really did come down your chimney courtesy of a kindly bearded gentleman.
Horse,
I’m off to London early in the morning so I don’t have time to get into long explanations. Simply this (and if you’d read my exchange with Gari earlier some of this would be clearer than it obviously is): I am speaking about differing perceptions of the same word can draw people into intellectual ‘cul de sacs’.
Once you do away with two clear handles for two states, then in certain circumstances when the Republic is forced to confront its relations with Northern Ireland, confusion reigns. Q&A;Horse, watch last week’s Q&A;and you’ll see a Minister of State being forced to change nomenclature half way through to make crystal clear something that if you followed the argument you would know anyway.
The only controversial idea I have advanced is a hypothesis that this PARTICULAR confusion may have arisen from the 1998 changes to the Bunreacht.
“Issues like ‘the population of Ireland’ are bound to cause problems, as two different interpretations are equally valid.”
But there are two different calculations that can masquerade as the same, as in this case, when in fact they are quite different. In this case our friend ‘Ste’ (who is Irish and not American as you first claimed) made precisely this mistake. It’s understandable when the nomenclature is as confused as this one.
If you get your data from the CSO, you know what you are getting because if you are a lazy but half sentient researcher who never reads the notes on methodology you understand the provenance of the source. But in casual intercourse it is a different matter.
I hope that clears it up. It’s not a matter of polemic; its about the utility of using straightforward language. It’s just ‘red pill’ stuff.
Shower of weirdos. We all know what Ireland is. This is actually a topic about nothing. Fair play to ye.
An arguement for the sake of itself. Bizarre.
The Devil’s always in the detail. Night all!
To avoid all this confusion, I wonder if this is why India was split into East & West Pakistan with the larger area retainining the name India.
I wonder did the Pakistanis/Banglageshi’s feel hard done by that the larger part of the landmass was still called India?
Why wasn’t NI renamed Dal Riada or something similar?
Unionists missed out on putting a bit of clear space between us and them by not doing that!
Shower of weirdos. We all know what Ireland is.
How many counties are there in Ireland?
runciter
Tough call. Id say 32 but isnt there a County Fingal these days?
Also for administration purposes the cities are in effect seperate counties.
Also in GAA land we have counties New York and London added to the mix.
Your guess is as good as mine.
Isn’t Tipperary uniquely regarded as two separate “counties” (North Riding and South Riding) with regard to Irish vehicle registration plates? And didn’t Dublin stop being a county a few years back after they divided it up into three new counties?
Strange place Ireland.
Tough call. Id say 32
The Department of Foreign Affairs says 26.
So maybe not everyone knows “what Ireland is”.
The Department of Foreign Affairs says 26.
But it is, of course, only the DFA of the 26 county state called Ireland. So it is correct as far as its state (aka Ireland) is concerned.
However, there are clearly more than 26 administrative counties even in the state (Dublin has three now, and Tipp always had two). Since the northern counties have no administrative function any more (except, argubly, Fermanagh), there are still just six of them.
So, to sum up, I’d say that there are 32 historic counties (used by the GAA, addresses, etc), but probably 35 actual counties (29 administrative in the south, and 6 in the north).
Ri Na Deise, you’re quite right. It’s an argument just for the sake of it. But isn’t that all Slugger really is, at the end of the day?
seems obvious to me that the problem is the ROI is inaccurately named. the solution would be for them to tidy up their mistake and pick an accurate name that reflects the geographic area of their state, not the geographic area that they originally wanted their state to be. naming conventions would suggest Southern Ireland.
any southerners up for fixing their country’s name?
Eranu – I believe the Greeks and Macedonian’s have similar issue. It’s not going to change, we just have to get used to it.
probably not, cant imagine anyone down south taking too kindly to northern irish people asking them to rename their state! although it would fix things like the ireland rugby team being seen more as the ROI team down south.
“why are we all so confused? , Ireland is an invention from the 12th century. The name Ireland never came about until after the 12th century. so being Irish is a relatively new thing.”
Jaypers UMH, can you not grasp that prior to the 12th century the English language (as we know it today) was unknown as well!
Around this time the names of most countries/territories/lands were different to what we know them as today!
ie therefore ‘Wales’ is an invention too as it’s an Anglo Saxon word for foreigner!
Scotland is an invention too as it describes the Irish inhabitants living in Alba (Irish gaelic) or Caledonia (Latin) , take your pick of old names…
England is an invention too derived with the arrival of the Angles from ‘Germania’ to Britain.
Regarding the island of Ireland, it’s incredible that you have never heard of the terms Hibernia(Latin), Ivernia, Ierne etc… where the name or word ‘Ireland’ is derived!
It was thanks to our Norman ancestors who neatly categorised and appropriately named all the countries of the the ‘British isles’ that stand to this day as you know them! Prior to this call them what you like but the peoples of these islands were always here with their distinct cultural identities.
A good thing for you to do would be to check out out when ‘France’, ‘Germany’, ‘Italy’ ‘Russia,’ etc…. etc…were ‘invented’ as you say!
And of course UMH ‘Northern Ireland’ and the ‘Republic of Ireland’ were ‘invented’ only in 1922! Prior to that nothing exited here if you were to apply your logic!
And of course UMH ‘Northern Ireland’ and the ‘Republic of Ireland’ were ‘invented’ only in 1922! Prior to that nothing existed here if you were to apply your logic!
Actually Greagoir, the correct history of the island of Ireland is as follows.
When the world was created 4000 years ago, the island that is now called “Ireland” was much smaller than it is now. Back then, it consisted of the territory that is now Northern Ireland, and it was known as Ulsterbritain. It was a very mountainous, where the average elevation of the land was several thousand feet above sea level.
Living alongside the noble inhabitants of Ulsterbritain was a tribe of red-haired savages, known as the “Irish.” These savages set about levelling the mountains and spreading out the area of the island into the sea to the south and west of Ulsterbritain. By the 12th century, they had enlarged the island to the size that it is today, which they called “Ireland” However, their long-term plan to subjugate and enslave the the good people of Ulsterbritain was thwarted by the intervention of the English.
God’s honest truth.
Point of order..
Northernmost part of Ireland is Malin Head, in the Republic.
Southernmost is Fastnet Rock (County Cork), also in the Republic.
I am from Dublin and hate the term ‘southern Ireland’. Unless you are talking about County Cork, there is no such place! Unless you are talking about Corkonians, there are no such people as southerners.
I usually encounter it when talking to English people who have no clue about Ireland, have heard the term northen Ireland, and assume there is a southern equivalent out there somewhere. (also, seemingly, part of the UK).
To hear people of the ’6′ refer to me as a ‘Free Stater’, and immediately afterwards refer to the the Republic as ‘southern Ireland’, and me as a ‘southerner’ really gets me going!
When English people ask me if I am from ‘southern Ireland’ I tell them I am in fact from eastern Ireland. A response which usually provokes a nervous laugh, as they try to figure out where I’m coming from.
And yes, I do call my country the Republic when refering to the 26, and Ireland when refering to where I come from.
fionn, how’s about BMW Ireland? That sounds very grand!!
S&E;Ireland, on the other hand, sounds a bit smutty.
Hi Horseman/Mike/Earnan,
On the declaration of the Republic – Ireland was represented in the First Protectorate Parliament by 30MPs. A Republican parliament formed in 1654 by Cromwell – the greatest republican to ever set foot in Ireland. Though that would be hard to tell nowadays ;0)
Careful Congal, don’t mention that Cromwell was a Republican who slaughtered pro-English Royalists, it doesn’t fit into the conventional history of Ireland.
Fionn
I take no issue with the term ‘southerner’ being as it is geographically accurate in my case.:)
Ri Na Deise, you’re quite right. It’s an argument just for the sake of it.
Not really. Terminology is important. The traditional reason for calling the state Ireland was due to the territorial claim in the constitution. It was never the intention of those who originally wrote the constitution that Ireland should be reduced to meaning 26 counties in any context.
Also, it should be obvious that it is offensive to northern nationalists to suggest that they do not live in Ireland, no matter the context.
also offensive to unionists runciter. just because they have no interest in the republic doesnt mean they dont have an interest in ireland.
I find anyone who lives in Ireland and claims not to be Orosh has something missing upstairs. Just like the albeit small section of the Celtic support who claim to be Irish, and not at all Scottish.
also offensive to unionists runciter.
Fair point.
Re the poster from Dublin who doesn´t like being called a Southerner, it is true in my experience (as a Northerner) that people in NI, whatever background they come from prefer to talk about the ´South´, the Free State, or simply the State rather than the Republic. I personally would prefer to use the latter term, but it´s kind of swimming against the tide…
Then of course there are quite a few English people who refer to the mysterious land of ´Air-eh´ but that´s a whole other can of worms.
“On the declaration of the Republic – Ireland was represented in the First Protectorate Parliament by 30MPs. A Republican parliament formed in 1654 by Cromwell – the greatest republican to ever set foot in Ireland. Though that would be hard to tell nowadays ;0)”
“Careful Congal, don’t mention that Cromwell was a Republican who slaughtered pro-English Royalists, it doesn’t fit into the conventional history of Ireland.”
Ha Ah…Oh indeed folks, Cromwell the first notable English republican who beheaded your Protestant English King and established parliament as the basis of government.
A headstrong dictator and hounder of English Royalists in Ireland, please note that he was no friend of Popish Paddy the Peasant either who got a raw deal too! So why should Irish folk today have any love for an arrogant religious fundaMentalist who thought he was on ‘gods’ side, even if he was a ‘republican’. He was an opportunist who firmly established English rule in Ireland too!
BTW, the Republicanism of that other great Englishman Thomas Paine is indeed more preferable!
fc
“Re the poster from Dublin who doesn´t like being called a Southerner”
would’ve been easier to call me fionn
I take your point that ‘northerners’ (your term) tend to refer to us as ‘southerners’. My point is that it pisses me off a little when used (by youse)in conjunction with ‘Free Stater’.
English people can use the term ‘southern Ireland’ to deny the existence of the Republic (sometimes sub-consciously I admit), as an Irish Republic seems to have some deleterious effect on their belief in the Empire, or perhaps on the the integrity of the Union.
‘Free state’ can have the same effect. It seems that nobody wants to admit the existence of our little Republic!
“Then of course there are quite a few English people who refer to the mysterious land of ´Air-eh´”
Yes I’ve met them, usually of the older variety and trying to be PC, bless ‘em. Those moments are when I really like using the term Republic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxembourg_(Belgium)