Jack Hermon dies
Sir Jack Hermon who died suffering from Alzheimer’s for many years was the longest serving and the first modern professional native-born chief of the RUC of the Troubles, as successor to the Met policeman Sir Kenneth Newman, later to be Met Commissioner. Earlier old school Ulster-born chiefs were clearly subordinate to the army’s GOC of the day, even though the policy of “primacy of the police” nominally began in the mid seventies. No doubt Sir Jack’s critics have other descriptions of him.The RUC’s progressively greater role put them literally more in the firing line. The dossier of “shoot to kill” allegations compiled by deputy chief of Great Manchester John Stalker remains unopened and the collusion charges over the Finucane and other murders remain in limbo. No balanced account of the RUC’s role and of Jack Hermon’s leadership will be possible without greater disclosure. My impression of him was that that he always kept a tight command and there was no question of his not being briefed, like Sir Ian Blair over the de Menezes shooting.
This was an era of relentless conflict, only a little less grim than the previous decade, beginning with the hunger strike aftermath in 81, the Droppin’ Well bomb in 82, the Loughgall killings of 8 IRA men, the Enniskillen bomb which killed 11, 8 soldiers blown up outside Ballygawley in 87, to instance only a few of the biggest death tolls. The overall tally must include the local backwash of the IRA’s English campaign, from the Regent Park and Brighton bombs of 82, to the horrific cycle of death beginning with the SAS “Death on the Rock” killings of 3 in Gibraltar in 1988, followed by the Michael Stone graveside attack and the subsequent lynching of the two incognito solders following the second highly charged funeral procession to Milltown cemetery in a week.
Don’t fret Bob, cynic will condemn such analysis as propaganda, whilst gloriously ignoring the mere facts of a few hundred years or so of murder and mayhem before then which british crown forces had fun with, into the bargain.
Windsor rocker,
You’ve lost me.Are you saying a. He wasn’t a unionist or b.He wasn’t an RUC man?
So it was only paramilitary displays that the RUC were stopping at funerals? When those didn’t happen, they didn’t harass, assault, and antoganize mourners?
….guess I’m mistaken
This is how impartial Mr hermons police force where during Larry Marleys funeral and the funeral of John Bingham UVF.
4.12/9.53
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KySF3FTakEY
Driftwood, I find your comments about John Stalker being a huckster, etc. despicable when it comes to his reaction to Sir John Anderton’s behavior, especially regarding AIDs, gays, and prostitutes, as Stalker made it quite clear that it was one of the reasons for his resigning from the GMP. (p. 282)
What more do you want from the man? Should he have murdered him?
And this was after Anderton had conspired to ruin the man, and stop his investigation of the shoot-to-kill murders.
Regarding his inquiry, it is important to note that Stalker might have the last word on it rather than Hermon, Anderton, Sir Laurence Byford, Sir Philip Myers et al. as Chief Coroner John Leckey has not only called for the release of Stalker’s sealed report, but also for new inquests into the murders of the three RUC policemen in the Kinnego roundabout bombing in October 1982 – what could blow sky high the role of MI5, British military intelligence and reinforced Headquarters Mobile Support Units in the whole murderous process.
Ahhh thank God for Karma .
RS posted that this thread would go downhill (post 1) and on that point it has. Trowbridge-Hermon was a better man than Anderton for lots of reasons. As for MI5, Army Intel, HMG, none came within Sir Johns remit. I repeat, whatever you think of the RUC, Jack had the respect of his men and women. Whether anyone here thinks that good or bad, I’m sure he would be happy enough with that legacy.
You obviously have no recall, Driftwood, about what you post – what was most responsible for the thread going downhill.
At 06:24PM yesterday, you posted: “Wasn’t he (Stalker) Deputy to ‘Gods Copper’ James Anderton who said that Homosexuals deserve to die of AIDs. He never had much to say about that.”
Then, two hours later, you added that Stalker had no conscience, had only ambition, wanted to make a name for himself, etc., ad nauseam.
The facts are that Anderton’s comments about what gays, drugs addicts and prostitutes deserved was a big cause of Stalker quitting the GMP. Stalker noted what Anderton said on December 11, 1986: “Anderton gives widely controversial speech about AIDs sufferers.” (p. 282)
Stalker then adds about what Anderton did in January 1987: “Anderton gives his ‘Prophet of God’ speech.” (ibid.)
In short, you grossly libelled the man, and should apologize.
And as I recall, it was Hermon who pulled the plug on Stalker, so he must have had control over his remit.
This guy Larry Marley. What was he, a charity worker or something?
Trowbridge
Hermon did not pull the plug on Stalker.
Look closer to Whitehall and Manchester to see who opposed him.
Hermon would not of course have given him any help and probably enjoyed looking on from the side lines.
Stalker had a difficult job to do and did it to the best of his ability.
The fact he did not fully succeed says more about the obstacles thrown in his path than his pursuit of the truth.
In short he did a good job and no one else could have achieved any more.
Well up the thread skullion has reminded me of the tragic case of John Boyle who was shot dead in terrible error at Dunloy. Tactically it resembles the Michael Tighe killing which was part of the Stalker dossier. Skullion, obviously I don’t know how much or how soon Hermon knew things but I’m pretty convinced the RUC remained under his general direction and did not spiral out of total control. Ian Blair faced several weeks of similar high tension which Hermon coped with for a decade. My hunch – and it can only be a hunch – is that “shoot to kill” is an emotive term for an occasional strategy on the edge of the law that raised the stakes on both sides and often went over the line. Perhaps it played a long term part in containing the IRA and INLA, I don’t know. We do know it was part of an escalation. But as Richard English concludes chapter 6 of “Armed Struggle: a history of the IRA” “.. the late 80s offered problems for the IRA. They were losing numbers (26 during 87-77); unintentionally killing civilians (27 during 1987-88) and losing the publicity war as a result…….(A sympathetic observer).. was able to write .. there is a strong possibility that Sinn Fein and the IRA will lose more than they gain. on the present course..”
A reading of Stalker’s book shows that he was certain that Hermon had pulled the plug on him – what was confirmed by his removal by Byford, Myers and Anderton at a meeting at Scarborough on May 19, 1986.
And Stalker attributed it to all the false information that Assistant CID Chief Constable Ralph Lees and others had given Hermon about Stalker’s relationship with informant David Burton:
“I told him that in my view either he or his officers had given the Chief Constable an over-inflated story that had not stood up to scrutiny; that he had made the cardinal error for a detective of rushing in without checking his facts.” (p. 211)
Then Hermon pulled the plug on Stalker for which Lees was truly sorry.
Stalker even makes the claim directly somewhere in the book, but I have not found it yet. But when I do, I shall post.
Stalker’s sacking was totally dependent upon what the RUC did, and didn’t do regarding him.
Having made clear on numerous other threads my views on so called loyalist terrorists is comparing the funerals of Bingham and Marley comparing like with like?
I am just about old enough to remember these incidents but there was no attempt made to have a paramilitary display at Bingham’s and presumably his was policed differently on the basis that such assurances were given?
Far be it from me to suggest that it suited the purposes of Republicans to portray the police in this light and I think I have read that if such assurances were to have been given and kept in relation to Marley the whole thing would have been dealt with very differently…
Peter Brown that sir is the biggest load of baloney, Binghams coffin was draped in paramilitary regalia, it also had a UVF guard of honour, at least do a little research before posting clap trap, or selective recollections. John Hermon presided over a paramilitary force, who employed Loyalist murder gangs to prop up a failed statelet, thats how I will remember the man, may he rest in peace with the devil.
I see Bob McGowan is still counting the bodies.
Driftwood
You heard John Hermon on the radio last night? Oh no, I thought the old boy was dead and firmly nailed down in his box, I hope he has not come back for a second go. By the way, and I am not attempting to cast any aspersions on Mr Hermon, but my experience of those they call a “coppers copper”, is that they are the types who turn a blind eye when those they command beat the shit out of suspects in the cells; or take back handers.
But I’m sure a knight of the realm would not behave like that; and in fairness to the old fellow, he did not cut and run when he retired.
He was what partition made him.
Condolences to his family.
UVF guard of honour
I don’t think that it did – it certainyl didn;t have anything illegal – which is the subtle (I accept that it is a fine line) difference between a UVF wreath and masked men firing shots from an armalite…
I suppose I wasn’t exact enought the first time.
Usual]y so called loyalists got round that by having the shots fired at some other time in the local area….thus allowing the funeral to be within the law and policed accordingly…
Jack Hermon will be sadly missed by all who served under him, a coppers copper indeed.
Trow , strange that such a highly experienced detective as Stalker would not actually hold on to the strange hand written note from Hermon. No?
As for Larry Marley he was a senior PIRA member in Belfast who planned and organised the Maze escape.
Some people in this statelet may not have liked the law that was passed to ratify the AIA of 1985 but it was.
mick hall
It was a recording of an interview back in 1985 when Hermons officers were being burned out of homes by ‘loyalists’. Guess who was cheerleading the ‘loyalists’. Jack also was instrumental in stopping Orange parades through Obins St Portadown. His job was always going to be tough.
And he wasn’t a nutcase like James Anderton.
Trow , strange that such a highly experienced detective as Stalker would not actually hold on to the strange hand written note from Hermon
More attempt to muddy the water. As I have already pointed out, the hand written family tree on the back of a cigarette packet was neither criminal nor unethical. That is not what Stalker was investigating. Stalker was not there to investigate the investigation into Stalker.
And as it was probably not even written by Hermon, who didn’t smoke, but by one of his underlings, who passed the results of his investigations to his chief, all its retention would prove is that cigarette packets exist and it is possible to write on the back of them. As for genuine cases of unethical behaviour bordering on the criminal, the proof of them is supplied inter alia in the report.
But what it does reveal is an attitude so out of touch with modern thinking as to make one gasp. I am reminded of a particularly ironic sentence from Borges “He was unable to refute a single one of the Gestapo’s charges; his mother’s family name was Jaroslavski, he was of Jewish blood, his study on Böhme had a marked Jewish emphasis.”
Hermon did not invent this attitude: he was not the worst, and may even have been the best. But, boy, is this thinking out of touch with modern day England and America.
I am just amazed at the continuing doubt that Sir John Hermon prepared the note about Stalker’s Catholic background.
Stalker was accompanied by John Thorburn, his assistant, at the lunch (p. 30), so he could testify about its existence if required. It must have blown Thorburn’s mind too.
I just wish posters were more interested in discussing and resolving more controversial matters – like Hermon’s briefing the Home Office about Pat Finucane being a Provo – what helped lead to his murder.
Peter Brown, I don’t wish to stray off the original topic, but Binghams coffin was draped in UVF flag and had a UVF guard of honour, there was widespread outrage due to this and the attendance of a number of high profile Unionist politicians, there was distinct difference in John Hermons policing policies between the to communities, to suggest different is to ignore the truth. Even in death Republicans were subjected to atrocious policing by Hermans army.
Even in death Republicans were subjected to atrocious policing by Hermans army.
Posted by mick cooper on Nov 08, 2008 @ 04:05 PM
You mean Even in death Republicans were subjected to atrocious policing by Hermons goons
Unfortunately whilst the display at Bingham’s funeral is as sickening to me as it is to you (and to at least a certain extent contradicts the assertions at the time by the former First minister among others that he was not a UVF man) it is not per se illegal or unlawful – nor was the equivalent displays of tricolours berets and gloves at Republican funerals.
Where they crossed the line (for the police and the clergy in certian diocese too if I remember correctly) was the almost inevitable firing of shots – when this wasn’t on the cards (assurances were given in relation to certain funerals if I recall) they were policed differently. There were grounds for different funerals being policed differently…whether you think they were good or reasonable grounds is a matter of opinion but they were founded on the prevention of crime.
Thats NOT what you originally claimed Peter. Besides there are no grounds whatsoever to attack mourners at a funeral.
Let’s call it a score draw mick – paramilitary display was poorly phrased, it should really have been specifically shots fired but there was no official UVF guard of honour either as I remember it (although that particular lodge is maybe the same thing if others who know better than me are to be believed).
As for attacking mourners at funerals I agree but once again it has been done to everyone by everyone else….let those who are without sin and all that tends to override doing unto others as you would have them do unto you in Northern Ireland.
Stalker was never able to gather either any evidence, or a corroborating statement, to support his claim.
As for remarks made regarding the Finnucane family and their involvement in paramilitary activity, they are well known and no doubt well documented. Unfortunately most of those records can not be released due to how that would infringe upon the OSA and how it would not be in the interests of public safety. I think Sir Jack was well briefed regarding what he said and was also absolutely correct.
Some more utter bs from II.
As for the Stalker interim report, Sir Jack was enraged by it, so much so that he conspired to get rid of him with another manufactored bit of evidence, like his Catholic background – i.e., that Stalker was connected to Kevin Taylor, Christopher Hayward, and other criminals.
You remember that Chris Hayward’s brother Simon was, apparently, the hitman for the Palme hit, and was put away by ‘Steak knife’ et al. to prevent his becoming an utterly ‘loose canoon’ here in Stockholm.
And II’s crap about the Finucane murder puts the cart before the horse – i. e., failing to prosecute Finucane’s real murderers in order to protect the Official Secrets Acts. They are not ends but means to protect exposure of anything, good or bad. And in this case, the evidence was totally bad.
And Sir Jack was generally badly briefed about anyting, as I just stated in my previous post – i. e., Stalker’s alleged involvement with tout David Burton.
One can just wonder what II gets for such disinformation.
Call it what you will Peter, but back on topic I will remember dear old Jack as the man behind the forces of law and order who attacked bereaved familys while trying to bury their loved ones, as the man behind Loyalist murder gangs and ultimately as the Chief Constable who consented to state murder.
The Facts:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/3401849/Sir-John-Hermon.html
Stalkers friends in the Manchester gangster underworld showed that he was desperate to prove himself elsewhere. Taking the heat off his own shady connections.
I will remember dear old Jack as the man behind the forces of law and order who attacked bereaved familys (only because they were also facilitating publicity stunts by terrorists) while trying to bury their loved ones, as the man behind (most of the convictions of) Loyalist murder gangs and ultimately as the Chief Constable who (was eventually cleared of having) consented to state murder (whilst at the same time attending the funerals of over 100 of his men and women who were murdered in cold blood many of them by cowards to afraid to face them)
Mick sometimes what you leave out is more important that what you say….
Interesting to see all the Stalker allegations seized upon as lifelines by a number of posters.
Interesting too that, as I recall, Hermon sued a number of those who published them and won substantial damages in the courts. Where was Stalker as a witness? Where was the cigarette packet?
And yet again we have Republican posters here who completely ignore Hermon’s position and the RUCs action on OO marches and on the Anglo Irish Protests despite all the DUP attempts to subvert the force. I fear that they simply cannot cope with a different much more complex narrative and prefer the Jack and Jill, MOPE version of history where, of course, everyone was out to do them down
Peter its important to leave out the lies, but more important to add the truth, in your comment you have failed to do either.
Everything I added is factually accurate – which is a lie?
Interesting too that, as I recall, Hermon sued a number of those who published them and won substantial damages in the courts. Where was Stalker as a witness? Where was the cigarette packet?
Hermon sued, successfully, those papers that said he was part of a masonic conspiracy, which Stalker never alleged. He did not sue over the cigarette packet.
You are still trying to muddy the waters.
Interesting too that, as I recall, Hermon sued a number of those who published them and won substantial damages in the courts. Where was Stalker as a witness? Where was the cigarette packet?
Hermon sued, successfully, those papers that said he was part of a masonic conspiracy, which Stalker never alleged. He did not sue over the cigarette packet.
You are still trying to muddy the waters.
[i]“I see Bob McGowan is still counting the bodies.
[b]Posted by billy ghoti on Nov 08, 2008 @ 12:14 PM[/b][/i]
Sorry if the actual numbers from a study of some 3,524 victims disturbs you, but posted falsehoods — all to often by unionists — disturb ME. And, I prefer to post the actual count by the investigator/analyst than some generalization. I’m hardly upset because the facts — as determined by an impartial investigator — contradict some falsehoods which too many unionists, including you, have come to believe.
Too bad!!
A Co Armagh building company linked to an alleged UVF leader was paid more than £5 million by the PSNI, it can now be revealed.
In January 2000, alleged mid-Ulster UVF leader Richard Jameson was shot dead by the LVF near his home in Portadown.
http://www.irishnews.com/articles/540/5860/2008/11/6/602162_362599073245PSNIgave.html
Peter Brown
“Usual]y so called loyalists got round that by having the shots fired at some other time in the local area….thus allowing the funeral to be within the law and policed accordingly… ”
The IRA had paid their respects and fired a volley of shots the night before the funeral, the family only wished to have a flag and gloves on the coffin now to see the difference?
“the hitman for the Palme hit”
I knew it wouldn’t be long before poor old Olaf’s spectre turned up at this feast.
I knew it would be too good to be true that Harry Flashman would at least disappear on this thread after the tall tale he made up about John Stalker making up the whole story about Hermon’s providing a card about Stalker’s Catholic background when Stalker and John Thorburn first met the RUC Chief Constable for lunch during their Shoot-To-Kill inquiry.
Now he is making out that the assassination of Sweden’s statsminister – even misspelling his name – is totally irrelevant to this discussion when it is central.
When Hermon made it clear to James Angleton that he wanted Stalker’s inquiry ended, the GMP Chief Constable had his CID put together a completely fabricated case that Stalker was criminally associated to Manchester businessman Kevin Taylor, part of the city’s Quality Street gang which was smuggling cannabis from North Africa on a catamaran that Stalker had once enjoyed the facilities of, thanks to Taylor’s connections.
The catamaran was later sold to Christopher Hayward, and once Manchester’s CID learned that Stalker et al. were investigating his borther Simon’s involvement in the Shoot-to-Kill murders, Stalker was gone, and the whole cover up of his inquiries started.
The only trouble with this set-up was that Stalker paid his way to NYC back then, Taylor had no criminal connections with the Quality Street gang, and the selling to and operation of the catamaran by Christopher Hayward had nothing to do with Stalker.
And why the British police authorities were so afraid to allow Stalker to continue his investiation was that he would discover Hayward’s apparent role here in Stockholm when Olof Palme was assassinated on February 28, 1986 – what would have triggered a nuclear war if the Soviets had not been able to penetrate the conspiracy by spies Rick Ames, Robert Hanssen, Jonathan Pollard et al.
And a solution to Palme’s assassination has never been achieved, thanks particularly to the connivance of Margaret Thatcher, former SOD George Younger, MI6, Anderton and his boys, Hermon and his boys, etc., ad nauseam. And Palme is considered by many Swedes as one of its greatest.
So you can just stuff your snide remarks about the subject.
Trowbridge
Fascinating stuff. Palme was definitely a good ‘un.
Belated birthday greetings! I was away and missed the festivities.