The wearing of the poppy
The following is an entirely personal set of musings about Poppy day and Remembrance etc. I know some people find some of my blogs at times too personal but I wanted to do this one: if you do not like it just move on to the next blog. It is poppy time again and I am back to wearing a poppy and yet feeling a bit uncomfortable about it. My discomfort exists at a number of levels:Firstly I do not want to offend anyone by wearing a poppy. I am aware that there are some people who find a poppy offensive: they may have good or bad reasons for disliking poppies. One can argue that they celebrate militarism and glory in what were actually awful events. I am not trying to celebrate militarism: I am trying to remember the sacrifice and death of the world wars by wearing it. I feel that I am remembering the young Germans who died in the First World War as well: they were not very different to my ancestors who fought on the British side. I even feel that I am remembering the Germans of the Second War as well. Just because the Nazi regime was itself evil does not mean that they were themselves all committing evil by fighting for their country: most had little choice. As such I know why I wear the poppy but clearly I cannot explain that to everyone I see in the street.
I also do not want to be seen as being critical of those who are not wearing a poppy. I remember an elder in our church apologising as he was reading the announcements on Remembrance Sunday but had forgotten his poppy. Not wearing a poppy: be it through forgetfulness, the thing dropping off or refusal to wear one should not be something to be ashamed of. I often wonder if there are a vast pile of poppies in Westminster so all the politicians can pick one up before going on television.
Poppies are sometimes used as a badge of Prodishness: I well remember Queen’s at poppy time and the instant badge of identity which the poppy implied: just as in a way Ash Wednesday provided an alternative badge. I do not really like the way a poppy tends to imply support for one side in Northern Ireland and indeed may be seen as implying a particular political position: one which I of course support. I happen to support hardline unionism and also happen to wear a poppy. I do not wear a poppy in order to demonstrate my unionism. Again I cannot explain that to everyone I meet.
So why do I continue to wear a poppy? Well because at the end of the day I want to remember and mark what happened in the world wars and indeed in the wars before and since: most of all I want to remember the people who fought, suffered and died, especially the ones I knew:
My grandfather who was ground crew for the RAF, my step grandfather who was a navigator on Wellingtons. Most of all I remember my father in law.
Elenwe’s dad was a lovely, frustrating, irritating old man. When I first met him he was a fit 84 year old. He did not talk much about his experiences but from what he did tell us he joined the army in 1939 to see the world more than from any great sense of patriotic duty. He was trained initially at Catterick before being sent to Singapore to the garrison there as a motorbike despatch rider. The defence of Singapore was very poorly organised and the British should have been able to put up a vastly better military response. They completely failed to appreciate that the Japanese would come down the Malaysian peninsula on the roads the British had made rather than mount a sea borne invasion. In addition they betrayed arrogance and were dismissive of the Japanese soldiers fighting abilities. Churchill was obsessed with the war in Europe and would not spare troops and most importantly equipment to mount a proper defence.
Anyhow this is not a history lesson. Elenwe’s dad had no involvement in fighting, the closest he got was that he always claimed his deafness in later life was related to being near the 15” sea guns when they were being fired (as opposed to great old age which seemed the more likely explanation). He was captured along with all the others and sent north, not to the camp on the River Kwai, but to a camp building the railway to it. He recounted having a pint of milk stolen on the journey which greatly annoyed him, little realising what lay in store for him. The work in the camp was extremely heavy, the food abysmal in both quantity and quality. The guards (who were themselves treated pretty badly) beat them regularly. A favourite form of torture involved pouring large quantities of water into the prisoners’ mouths and then repeatedly kicking them in the stomach. The thing he complained about most though was the time a soldier used a sword to behead a dog: funny what people take exception to. He recounted that the local people, little better treated than them tried to help the prisoners.
So many people died that the guards knew the last post from it having been played so frequently. Elenwe’s dad got some sort of tropical ulcer and was in what passed for the camp hospital. After he recovered, the doctors kept him as an orderly in the hospital which saved him some of the ill treatment. Later he worked in the cook house making food for the Japanese soldiers which got him slightly more and slightly better food as sometimes they let the cooks have a bit of the guards’ food. I asked him once about his faith in that place and he simply said that he trusted God to keep him safe.
Eventually after 3 ½ years they heard rumours that the British and Indian forces were advancing towards them. This might well have resulted in them being killed by their captors. However, the nuclear bombs and Japan’s surrender intervened. He said that one day the Japanese commander simply told them that Japan had surrendered. In some camps a Union flag was found and run up but I think little changed and they essentially all sat about and waited to see what would happen. After a few weeks the British duly arrived.
The most seriously unwell were airlifted in a series of hops back to Britain (usually via India). The healthier ones like Elenwe’s dad were sent to the sea and back on ships. He said that this helped him adjust a bit to freedom. So eventually they arrived at Southampton and he was demobilised and sent back to Northern Ireland. He used to recount how eventually he arrived at Clones on the train and then had to walk home as they were too busy on the farm to collect him. Then he restarted the life of a Fermanagh farmer who did nothing terribly strange and finally married at the age of about 50. All I can say is that I am extremely grateful that we were (to quote the Bible) able to show him his children’s children.
So I am in no way trying to force anyone to wear a poppy but that is why I wear mine.
” My opposition to the poppy is based on my opposition to all the slaughter carried out by the strong in order to oppress the weak. ”
If i’t wasn’t for the bravery of men like Turgon’s father-in-law, you’d be marching up and down the Falls Road shouting “Seig heil!” along with the rest of the pacifists.’
Actually, it was probably more to do with the bravery of Russian and American troops than British ones. The British played their part but it was quite a small one. I wouldn’t personally wear a symbol to commemerate Russian war dead and they are a bigger reason that we aren’t speaking German than the British were.
Dave,
I’m not a pacifist number one. Number two, it was the Soviets that won the war. Even Churchill acknowledged it.
Turgon, I take little exception to anyone waring a poppy. It is neither my place to dictate where anyone should make a charitable donation nor do I have any particular reason to deny donations to the British Legion.
What I do take exception to, however, is the confusion between marking Armistice Day and making whatever donation to whatever charity a person may wish.
Let’s make a distinction: the day is being marked is Armtistice Day (Remembrance Day is a later term), the charity event is Poppy Day (much like Daffodil Day is for cancer charities in many countries).
It feel it is a disservice to the day and it’s significance to confuse the two.
Garibaldy & Seamus, refuting a claim that wasn’t made betrays anti-British sentiments. Who said the British won WW2? Nobody. The claim was that “the bravery of men like Turgon’s father-in-law” has given you freedom from the totalitarian alternative. That is the debt that you owe to them whether you choose to acknowledge their sacrifice or not.
You made a point that the reason that the Germans didn’t win the war was because of people like “Turgon’s father-in-law”. I took that to mean those who fought in the British Army. In reality if men like “Turgon’s father-in-law” hadn’t fought then I imagine that the Germans still wouldn’t have won the Second World War. The only British Service Men that actually had anything to do with the winning of the War were the pilots of the RAF, the “so few” I believe they were called.
I have genuine respect for those who fight and die for their country. The old latin phrase of “dulce et decorum est pro patria mori” sticks with me. I respect those British servicemen who died for their country. I respect those Russian servicemen who died for theirs and Americans and Germans who died for theirs. I will not honour them by wearing a Poppy as they did not die for my country. I leave that honour to the men of my own country so I will only honour Ireland’s patriot dead, but I still have respect for the dead of other nations.
I thought that perhaps I might add something that may have been ignored (by me at least) in the heat of opposing polemic. And it is this:
I have no objections to nor do I take offence at the idea of anyone wearing a small, unostentatious emblem to remember the deaths of those from their family or community who fell in war and I respect not only their right, but more importantly, their choice to so do.
I would rather that such quiet reverent commemoration is not hijacked by the unscrupulous to glorify the wars of profiteers and to justify their continuance today but it would be naive of me to expect that it might not.
I cannot however, nor do I, fall into the trap of asuming that all who wear such emblems are either complicit with the manipulators of human grief nor should I be so arrogant as to assume that they must be their dupes, willing or otherwise.
Contrarily, I must assume that they are free human agents acting on the best of motives and out of good principle, and so I do.
So, if you choose, do, please, wear your poppy with my blessing for all men of good heart and good intent.
In return I would ask that you respect my right, my motive and my exercise of principle in refusing to wear one as my way of showing honour to those of my family and community who died like the Irish airman of Yeats’s poem, ruing that,
Those that I fight I do not hate,
Those that I guard I do not love;
My country is Kiltartan Cross,
My countrymen Kiltartan’s poor,
No likely end could bring them loss
Or leave them happier than before.
This is a subject that I find hard to approach.
As a republican I could not bring myslef to wear a poppy as I feel that regardless of all the fantastic work done by the british legion for their soldiers, it is an icon that is misused and idolised by others for their political ends.
I also recognise that many people spent the war years working down the mines or in factories under appalling conditions but are forgotten.
Perhaps an alternative (does the white poppy option still exist?)is more suitable for those of us who have issues with the red poppy, or god forbid if it’s only paper, how about a green poppy?
Seamus
“I personally don’t wear a poppy. I see it as a British symbol and I am not British. Let the British people wear it.”
and later
“I respect those British servicemen who died for their country. I respect those Russian servicemen who died for theirs and Americans and Germans who died for theirs. I will not honour them by wearing a Poppy as they did not die for my country.”
I sometimes give to people collecting on the street for various causes, be it dogs homes, cancer, 3rd world aid etc etc, and I do it various countries and often they give me a sticker to put on. I’m not a dog, I don’t have cancer (I hope), I not starving and I’m not a citizen of those other countries but I don’t refuse to wear the sticker. As far as I know the money collected by selling poppies goes to help old soldiers in various ways – as the other collections do for their causes. So, is the issue that you are against helping old soldiers in need?
catchagrip,
“… I don’t refuse to wear the sticker …”
I bet you also wear the sticker for a whole month without taking it off.
I think the British Legion could give some leadership on this issue. I recognise that they do a lot of good work but they have been far too quiet on the wearing of the poppy by Unionist/Loyalist elements in a provocative way. A bit like the Church of Ireland on Drumcree the British Legion has buried it’s head on this. A statement from them along the lines of “we abhor and condemn those who wear the poppy as a politial, religious or sectarian statement” would be a positive start. They cannot continue to ignore this.
No, becuase that is not the primary reason for the Poppy. People don’t buy Poppies to contribute to the Royal British Legion, but to commemerate British War Dead. The Charity part is just an added part of it.
It does bring up an interesting note as to why a charity should be the ones responsible of caring for old veterans instead of the British Government. Seeing every member of the British Cabinet wears a Poppy but then the Government leaves old war veterans completely high and dry. It is despicable.
Olifear : I haven’t worn one in years, when I did it wasn’t for a month.
LURIG
perhaps the poppies could come printed with a statement along the lines of “I don’t wear this as a politial, religious or sectarian statement” or ” I do wear this …..” indeed perhaps all stickers, badges, emblems etc should come with such warnings….especially Liverpool Football Club – anyone wearing their badge is just up for stirring it!
Seamus
“People don’t buy Poppies to contribute to the Royal British Legion, but to commemerate British War Dead.”
are you suggesting the money goes to build memorials or some such thing? If that was the case I think the public would stop contributing quite soon.
If it’s OK to contribute to a charity and wear their badge then it applies to poppies as well. I’m sure there are those who those who try to use it as a politial, religious or sectarian statement or to intimidate but not many, and, in any case, I don’t think that’s a reason for the rest of the public to stop – just like wearing football badges (well, apart from LFC – downright sick those people are).
The only British Service Men that actually had anything to do with the winning of the War were the pilots of the RAF, the “so few” I believe they were called.
Whoa, Séamus mo chara, that’s a fairly stark bit of revisionism for a Saturday evening…
Until May 1941, the Soviet Union was not making any contribution to the war effort, save for supplying oil and other vital materiel to the Nazi state. Without the contribution of British soldiers in North Africa, German troops would have swept through Palestine – exterminating the Jewish population of the Near East as they went – and secured the oil fields of Iraq and the Arabian Peninsula with minimal effort; thereby obviating the critical oil shortage which gravely hampered German resistance in 1944 and early 1945.
British troops in Italy, although ultimately following a grand strategy with little chance of success, tied up German divisions, including a number of elite divisions, which could have been put to greater use on the Eastern Front.
British and Canadian troops executed almost perfect landings in Normandy, before annihilating the cream of German armour in tandem with the Americans. And then aggressively pursued the Germans across France and the Low Countries in a textbook example of blitzkrieg, saving countless innocent French, Belgian and Dutch lives. And the same troops may well have ended the war by the end of 1944 had not Monty’s overcaution at Antwerp and consequent overreaction at Arnhem not stalled their advance. But you can’t blame the troops, or the officer corps, for Monty’s folly.
In invading and occupying Germany, British troops were not perfect, but behaved like choirboys in comparison with the rampant incidence of theft and rape that followed Soviet, French and, yes, American armies, let alone what Axis troops had done earlier in the war.
British sea power destroyed the surface fleet of the German navy in short order, eliminating any chance of Germany secuting vitally needed materiel from outside Europe. And let’s not forget the sacrificial service of Merchant Seamen, many of whom were Belfast Catholics, in supplying the Soviet Union in the dark days of 1942 and 1943.
British scientific genius produced radar, made a huge contribution the Manhattan Project, cracked most German codes for most of the war, and produced the technology and tactics which destroyed the U boot fleet from the Summer of 1943.
And I’m not even going to start on Burma.
None of this is to decry or minimise the heroic achievements of the Red Army – their often recognised blood sacrifice, and their rarely recognised strategic and logistical genius – not least in the single greatest military campaign in history: the 1000 mile march from western Russia, destruction of Army Group Centre in Belarus and advance to the Vistula in the space of three short months.
I can well understand why people don’t want to wear poppies, given the way they have been abused by some in Northern Ireland, and would not presume to judge anyone one way or the other because they did or did not wear a poppy. But please let’s don’t sit comfortably at keyboards in Ireland in 2008 and piss on the extraordinary achievements of ordinary men without which the world would be a much worse place today.
“are you suggesting the money goes to build memorials or some such thing? If that was the case I think the public would stop contributing quite soon.”
No. What I am suggesting is that people don’t buy Poppies just to contribute to the Royal British Legion. They buy them to remember those who died for their country. It is bought as an act of commemeration and rememberance rather as an act of Charity.
“Whoa, Séamus mo chara, that’s a fairly stark bit of revisionism for a Saturday evening”
I didn’t enter the debate on the British War Effort to insult or offend anyone but rather because someone made a provocative statement that I would be speaking German if it wasn’t for the British Army. I personally feel that is incorrect. I believe that the British didn’t affect the outcome of the war. They probably shortened it and removed a large amount of civilian casulties but didn’t actually affect the outcome.
Stephen,
White poppies are still available but in NI can only really be got online as far as I know. The Quakers sell them elsewhere, but whether they do so in NI I don’t know.
On the WWII issue, it is essential to decouple WWII from the other wars in which the money donated through poppies goes to. Which were by and large wars in pursuit of imperialism and aggression.
Just quickly on Sammy’s point about when the USSR entered the war. This was partly because of France and the UK rebuffing Soviet attempts to form an alliance, on which new evidence has recently come to light
See here for details.
Once again, I prove hyperlink incompetent. It was a story from the Daily Telegraph about an offer from the Soviets to send a million men to the border to deter Germany if the UK and France would act similarly from October 19.
Garibaldy
The simple answer is NO
I can wear the poppy with pride in Canada because it shows support for Canadian Veterans
I couldn’t wear the poppy in nIreland because it would be construed as support for the british army
I couldn’t support the british army for its treatment of Canadians during the war, they viewed us as little more than cannon fodder even though our army was infinately more succesful then theirs.
add that to their heinous record in nIreland and they will never get respect from me
I believe that the British didn’t affect the outcome of the war. They probably shortened it and removed a large amount of civilian casulties but didn’t actually affect the outcome.
Although you aren’t the only person to argue this, it remains a very radical piece of revisionism and I wonder can you argue your point of view successfully? Let’s put it this way, had Britain capitulated post-Dunkirk, which many in Britain right up to War Cabinet level argued that they should, then Nazi Germany would have been able to impose a peace on Britain that would have decimated the Royal Navy and given Germany prime overseas territory (a share of Middle Eastern oil, for example). Hitler would then have turned his attention on the Soviet Union without the crippling supply problems that affected the Wehrmacht in the real world; also, he would not have had to ‘rush’ the invasion of the USSR to try and get the job done before the USA intervened in Europe’s war. Because the United States would not have intervened on behalf of the USSR after Britain and France had capitulated.
It’s also possible that the USSR could have bested Nazi Germany all on its own. But far from certain – without American trucks and boots supplied by the British Merchant Navy, it is questionable whether the Red Army could have sustained its incredible land gobbling advances of 1943-5, despite the heroism of the ‘ordinary’ Red Soldier and the tactical brilliance of the Stavka.
Of course, this is all hypothetical alternate history speculation but I am glad we did not have to see that speculation reality checked. Compared to what the world would have been like had Nazi Germany won the Second World War, then 30 years of Brookeborough and his woodentop allies was not too high a price to pay.
Garibaldy – I’d be interested in seeing that story – just cut and paste the hyperlink and we’ll be able to click through.
I couldn’t support the british army for its treatment of Canadians during the war, they viewed us as little more than cannon fodder even though our army was infinately more succesful then theirs.
Steve, that’s so sweet! All armies treat their troops like cannon fodder, that’s one of the many reasons why war is a bad thing.
And if the Brits forget the dismal but necessary crawl of the 1st Canadian Army through the Scheldt and Rhine estuaries, remember that the Dutch and Belgians don’t! Totally by chance, I was in Amsterdam on the 50th anniversary of liberation, and it seemed everyone in the city was a fat, grey haired Canadian sporting medals or an extremely fit Dutch girl hugging a fat, grey haired, Canadian sporting medals!
Seamus, you said earlier that people should respect each others symbols and then later you say they shouldn’t buy poppies just contribute to the Royal British Legion. I hope you mean it’s up to the individual and that the everyone else should respect their decision. I agree a lot of money for charities is wasted on unnecessary “fluff”. I don’t understand why there is a fuss about poppies.
Sammy,
If I got and paste it, it will screw up the whole page by stretching it beyond the normal point, and the administrators will get cross. I’ll post it in the comments story at your own blog.
catchagrip, my last comment was a bit snappy, but you understand what I mean?
“Seamus, you said earlier that people should respect each others symbols and then later you say they shouldn’t buy poppies just contribute to the Royal British Legion.”
I never said that they shouldn’t. I said that they normally don’t.
More to the point: if we follow the money trail, where does the British Legion’s millions go? HM’s loyal citizens tkae this group a lot more seriously than HM herself. No doubt, many loyal ex soldiers were destitute after the Armistice (plenty of decorate Catholic ones were exterminated in the 1920s pogroms) but today? A French friend asked me what the symbol meant. She weas shocked at this swindle. In France, the French goverment takes care of such hoboes. Why does this huge organisation extort such huge funds and where does it go?
Whilst we can accept that Micks may not like the poppy, there are bigger issues and concerns. It is good to honour our cannon fodder but should they be used as a pretext for this extortion? Accountability, please.