With both éirígí and SF already declaring protests against the MoD parade in Belfast, British Army Chaplain David Latimer has also expressed disaproval.
I’ve also heard of protests being organised by RNU (Republican Network for Unity) at the Markets and the WSM (Workers Solidarity Movement)
UPDATE: The IRSP and 32CSM will be protesting at the Markets. RSF still intend to be at their annual Edentubber commemoration.
As part of NICVA’s series of masterclasses from its Centre for Economic Empowerment project, there was a morning seminar on the topic of the “creative class” (as popularised by Richard Florida) and its applicability to Northern Ireland. The agenda was to: Explain Richard Florida’s idea of the “creative class” and the link between economic outcomes [...] read our review »
Fair play to Iain, he managed to get over 2,200 people voting in his poll for the top Northern Irish blogs this year… We (just, I imagine) retained our top spot, with Splintered coming straight in at number 2, no doubt his pet subject du jour will have garnered him a lot of fans… I’ve [...] read our review »
It’s not published until 3rd March, but one book I recommend you place an advance order for from Slugger’s Bookstore is James Harkin’s Niche. Belfast émigré Harkin examines a number of stories from business, culture and politics and comes to a single insight: everywhere the broad middle is collapsing. He offers Woolworths as an iconic exemplar [...] read our review »
Veteran,
you forgot to mention that the Germans were also represented in Mayo. It’s less jingoistic when you remember equally all the dead in a war because you move it away from the realms of glorification of one side towards true remembrance of the suffering of all in war.
Much easier to get broad community support for such events in my view.
‘We do not need violence on our streets. Call the damned thing off.’
Can’t disagee with you Picador.
The whole idea of a parade was always going to be highjacked by those who care little for the soldiers or their families.
Thus we have Robinson and the rest climbing on the bandwagon to show their ‘Britishness’ !!
The fact that loyalist paramilitaries are now organising their ‘troops’ for Sunday shows the folly of the Ministry Of Defence decision.
The irony is no one from the MOD can be bothered making a comment over, what was always going to be, a controversial decision in allowing the parade.
Hi GGN,
“Strabo also calls the smaller island Ierne”
Why do you think that was?
After the Errain, a tribe from SW Britain who moved over to the Cork area. So, even Ireland as a name and hence Irish is of British origin. Ironic then that so many reject it.
Hi Ri,
“Both a geographically inaccurate and politically loaded term.
Jeez you lot will go to any lengths in your attempts to justify the occupation of Ireland and your deluded beliefs.”
Geographically, it’s spot on having a provenance of several millenia. It’s no more politically loaded than “Irish Sea”. Should that be changed to Great British and Irish Sea?
“Occupation of Ireland”??? Of course that wouldn’t be a politically loaded term. Must be why I get those letters to the house with “To the Occupier” on them.
Hi Stones,
“Unfortunately congal, the term is indeed outdated. You’re right that many people do use it, so therefore you seem to be of the opinion that just because alot of say something, it must be right.”
The argument arises because some nationalists argue that British only applies to the island of Britain, really Great britain but we’ll let that go. That arises from ignorance of the history of these isles. It’s also the patronising tone of some of the posters. Thinking they’re being all clever when in actual fact they know little to fek all about this isle they claim to love so much.
You also say it’s outdated. That’s just nonsense. Do a google search for both terms and see which one turns up the most hits. You could also say Irish Gaelic is outdated. Yet it’d be a shame to let that go. Or is outdated Irish stuff all the rage nowadays?
All this hypocracy ,Warmongers protest about war in Afghanistan.
‘it’s spot on having a provenance of several millenia’
So people have been using the term ‘British Isles’ for ‘several millenia’????
‘It’s also the patronising tone of some of the posters.’
Agreed and I would re-direct you to funny little clip of the interview I provided.
‘The argument arises because some nationalists argue that British only applies to the island of Britain’
No the argument arises when people seek to infer Ireland is somehow inferior to/subservient to/the property of Britain by using what is inaccurate, outdated and arrogant term. You mention the Irish sea, good, now tell me if all the Island of Britain and Ireland make up the ‘British Isles’, why isn’t it called the british sea? Its simple, because Britain is an island, its Isles are the little islands dotted around it, of which, Ireland is not one.
‘You could also say Irish Gaelic is outdated. Yet it’d be a shame to let that go.’
So you admit the term is outdated and also seem to see an equivalence between a politically loaded and outdated term with an indigenous language?????? Why would it be a shame to stop sing the term British Isles? Im willing to bet most of the people of Ireland don’t like the term, so why insist on using it, especially as it has no legal or official capacity. The rugby heads showed they were mature enough to rename the British Lions to the British and Irish (why do you think they did this?), it seems others aren’t yet ready to show the same.
Re-read the Sam Jackson interview, it’ll do you good.
I hope that the homecoming parade on Sunday does pass of peacefully. This is not a Unionist parade, this is a parade to allow the families and friends of British and Irish servicemen who have served in battlefields abroad to welcome them home safe. This parade is a way of showing our thanks for the sacrifices that their comrades have made and to them for their valour. Many of these soldiers will be Roman Catholic, many will be of the Protestant faith and many will have no faith. Those who seek to cause disruption on Sunday should hang their heads in shame, they are a defeated “army”. The British Army are the victors and have every right to proudly walk any street in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Hi Congal,
Socialist that I am I permit you to call me Deise.
Monarchism is such an outdated system dont you think?
Veteran,
“you forgot to mention that the Germans were also represented in Mayo. It’s less jingoistic when you remember equally all the dead in a war because you move it away from the realms of glorification of one side towards true remembrance of the suffering of all in war.”
George,
There were no German veterans on the parade through Castlebar and no German names are remembered on the Peace Park memorials. All names are Irish from Co Mayo.
George,
What i forgot to mention was that some Irish American vets paraded with their standards to represent those CO Mayo men who served and died with US armed forces in WW2.
Can you imagine Irish American supporters of the shinners holding a protest march against this homecoming parade in the US? I doubt it, the yanks would chuck them all in the clanger and later deport them for being anti American.
‘El Paso Hosts Texas-Sized Homecoming Parade for Returned Cavalry Troops’
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=49108
Would it be compulsory for the soldiers to march.
I am sure there must be some in there midst thinking that we have had enough war in Afghanistan to keep us going for a while.
Unionists want to march british soldiers on the streets of belfast but do not have generosity of spirit to introduce policing and justice and an Irish language act.
If one would like generosity in others it would help to display some one self.
One wonders if unionists are trying to turn this into some sort of victory parade for themselves.
Veteran,
there were no German veterans parading because Irish people didn’t join its army. But, as with any memorial in Ireland to those who lost their lives in WW1, the Germans were also invited to remember, as this all about remembrance of those who lost their lives in war, not the glorification of those who served.
That is why there was also a German military colour party there in the wilds of Mayo.
Although, I fully accept your point about the SFers and the US homecoming parades, do we really want to encourage such a jingoistic society where sinister terms such as “anti-American” are bandied about with such regularity?
Give me the policy of true remembrance any day.
What was wrong with the proposed civic reception and thanksgiving service? The one for the RUC passed off without anyone getting their scanties in a twist. Why has someone from the MOD decided that a march which would not be permitted in- Oh, let’s say, Bradford or Brixton-should be waved on through Belfast?
The protest was inevitable. The Loyalist counter protest-protest was inevitable. The only mystery is why some chinless wonder thought that the natives of the city would simply love to see all the brass pop by? Did they think that love-in up on the hill was, like, for real?
“One wonders if unionists are trying to turn this into some sort of victory parade for themselves.”
Binding,
You have a point, when Unionist politicians (mostly Orangemen) organise parades they want to march in your front door and out the back so as to let you know their presence.
The Royal Irish Regiment are to have four homecoming parades at four different councils. Crikey, you would have thought one parade was enough. Are different Unionist councils competing against each other here to show who is the most loyal to Queen & country. Looks like Wee Jeffery & Lisburn City Council missed out this time.
Friday 31 October Ballymena
Saturday 1 November Larne
Sunday 2 November Belfast
Saturday 15 November Castlereagh
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/YOUR-TRIBUTES-Thank-the-heroes.4636764.jp
http://www.larnetimes.co.uk/news/39Living-gift39-of-music-to.4591000.jp
“Are different Unionist councils competing against each other here to show who is the most loyal to Queen & country.”
They probably are! But isn’t persistant marching, military bands, military tattoos, wars, battles, commerations etc.. such a major facet of British culture and identity!
Has anyone ever noticed that there is likely to be a presence of the British military at any major events in the UK, whether it be sporting events, etc…even the annual ‘panto’ parade for the Lord Mayor of London includes APC’s, marching troops, etc…
Last Sunday at the American football game at Wembley, there were the troops in khaki fatigues in attendance on the pitch before the game rather than stewards or volunteers, what ye might see elsewhere.
I remember the opening ceremony of the second Rugby World Cup in 1991 involved the Royal Marines parading around the pitch with fixed bayonets. I bet when London holds the Olympics in 2012 their services will be required as they’ll be a crucial part of the opening ceremony!
Rather than be upset, folk should just accept it! Like it or not, the British army is a part of the backbone of British culture!
Hi Stones,
“So people have been using the term ‘British Isles’ for ‘several millenia’????”
Considering that English didn’t exist as a language the actual words didn’t exist. But the term from where they derived did. I gave you the quotes from some of the most famous scholars of the classical age regarding the naming of these isles. Should you choose to ignore them it’s your loss.
“No the argument arises when people seek to infer Ireland is somehow inferior to/subservient to/the property of Britain by using what is inaccurate, outdated and arrogant term.”
British is a collective name for all the islands. None of them is inferior or superior. You must have an inferiority complex to think so.
“You mention the Irish sea, good, now tell me if all the Island of Britain and Ireland make up the ‘British Isles’, why isn’t it called the british sea? Its simple, because Britain is an island, its Isles are the little islands dotted around it, of which, Ireland is not one.”
The reason I mentioned Irish Sea, which I would’ve thought was fairly obvious, was that it’s another example were naming does not convey ownership. Ireland no more owns the Irish Sea than Britain owns the British Isles. Millenia ago there was no central government. Just a collection of kingdoms and tribal areas throughout the British Isles. No one owned them. Your insecurity in your own identity is shining through here.
“So you admit the term is outdated and also seem to see an equivalence between a politically loaded and outdated term with an indigenous language?????? Why would it be a shame to stop sing the term British Isles? Im willing to bet most of the people of Ireland don’t like the term, so why insist on using it, especially as it has no legal or official capacity.”
No I admitted no such thing. You keep saying politically loaded then use such terms as “indigenous”. You’re into you irony! Most of the people who live in the British Isles refer to them as such. As does most of the world. Done the Google search yet?
“The rugby heads showed they were mature enough to rename the British Lions to the British and Irish (why do you think they did this?), it seems others aren’t yet ready to show the same.”
That cuts both ways. Drop the SS for Ireland then?
“Re-read the Sam Jackson interview, it’ll do you good.”
I actually saw the interview at the time. Whilst it was commendable that he recognises the political realities, it’s another example of a little knowledge being more dangerous than none at all. As witnessed by your own lack of knowledge of your own history and heritage.
Hi Deise,
Duly noted. Sorry for any offence.
Should prob have translated that last post for those who dont speak gaeilge so ill translate the following. Sorry if I caused any offence to anyone.
“Aontaím leatsa ggn. Mothaim féin go bhfuil dearcadh frith-ghaelach ag alán stiúrthóir sa BhBC anseo in Éirinn is thar lear san Alban. Féach siar ar an agóid ar son an Act le dearanas is na figiúirí mhícheart a d’fhoilsigh siad faoi líon na n-agóideoirí. É sin ráite ní mór dom a rá go ngabhaim gach aon dea-mhéin don stáisiún iontach seo ” translates as
“I agree with you ggn. I personally feel that there is an anti-gaelic outlook amongst many directors of the BBC here in Ireland and over in scotland. Just look at the misreporting of the numbers of protesters protesting for the Act recently. That said I have to say that I wish all the best to this great station”
Sílim gur mór an trua nach bhfuil na fó-theacs ghaidhlige nó béarla curtha ar fáil don luch féachaintise. Is cabhair iontach iadsan do dhaoine nach raibh an deis acu an teanga a fhoghlaim is le cúnamh dé mhíthuiscint i dtreo na teanga a maolú.
I think that its a big shame that the subtitles are not available in gaelic or english to the viewers. They are a great help tothose who never had the opportunity to learn the language and to allieviate misunderstanding towards the language.
ModeratorPlease delete the previons post. I T HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS TOPIC
What are the odds that this parade is one of the prices that the DUP extracted from Brown in return for their support for his 42-day internment proposal?
The claims that he ‘bought’ their support were denied, but since this is not a monetary reward, maybe it doesn’t really count as having been ‘bought’.
The campaign (by the Newsletter mainly) to get such a parade was started up around the same time. And it fitted in with some of the ‘British’ rubbish that Brown used to sprout. So, as an easy price to pay, he agreed that the MoD would ‘facilitate’ any parades that the unionists could organise. Hence the MoD silence at the moment.
why dont the republican folk lead the way and have their protest indoors where it wont cause anyone any offence?
HA! get out of that one !!
(security word ‘game’ LOL)
… have their protest indoors …
In the Waterfront Hall. Deal?
certainly. think its booked on sunday though. hows monday for you?
security word ‘better’. seriously!
What are the odds that this parade is one of the prices that the DUP extracted from Brown in return for their support for his 42-day internment proposal?
Interesting thought. Perhaps the quid pro quo is that Robinson agrees a date for the transfer of P & J powers and an ILA.
In any case, there’s going to be trouble.
picador
Perhaps the quid pro quo is that Robinson agrees a date for the transfer of P & J powers and an ILA.
Signs are that’s part of the gameplan. According to Brian Walker, Gordon Brown has backed both: Gordon Brown strongly backs the RIR parade and the devolution of policing and justice
‘British is a collective name for all the islands. None of them is inferior or superior. You must have an inferiority complex to think so.’
No, British is a collective name for Britain and its Isles, of which Ireland is not one.
‘Your insecurity in your own identity is shining through here.’
Afraid not old son. Rather your own sense of superiority is shining through by claiming everyone is british.
‘Ireland no more owns the Irish Sea than Britain owns the British Isles.’
It seems your ignorant of the history, because for many a century Britain did indeed think she owned the other large Island to the west, which is why the term is so politically loaded. But you seem unable to either recognise or admit this.
‘Most of the people who live in the British Isles refer to them as such’
You must have some circle of friends. Have you asked them? Also doi you think the majority of people in Ireland would refer to them as such?
‘it’s another example of a little knowledge being more dangerous than none at all. As witnessed by your own lack of knowledge of your own history and heritage.’
What was dangerous about what Mr Jackson said to the interviewer pray tell?
The only thing lacking here is your respect for people on the Island next to the one you love so well.
picador,
Signs are that’s part of the gameplan …
I should have added that the other element in the gameplan is that SF don’t rock the boat too much. Hence the noticed absence of senior members, while at the same time they make at least a token protest for appearances sake.
None of this is rocket science. It’s just politics. If it goes wrong everyone has their excuses already in place and their scapegoat ready. And then its on to the next step, the next crisis, and the next solution. But the destination is clear – its just the precise route that is still a bit fuzzy. The DUP will agree to P+J, and get thrown a bone to placate their madder dogs. They’ll choke on the bone, but on we’ll go …
Hi Stones,
“No, British is a collective name for Britain and its Isles, of which Ireland is not one.”
No, I’m afraid you’re actually factually incorrect on this. If you refer back to my original post you’ll see Pliny the Elder named the islands which made up the Britannias. Ireland was one of them.
“Afraid not old son. Rather your own sense of superiority is shining through by claiming everyone is british.”
Had you been born Prod Stones (an assumption I’m making here – apologies if it’s wrong) I reckon you’d be British and not Irish. There’s a more sensible path you know.
“It seems your ignorant of the history, because for many a century Britain did indeed think she owned the other large Island to the west, which is why the term is so politically loaded. But you seem unable to either recognise or admit this.”
During this time the Political construct was the UK. Not the British Isles. British Isles pre and post dates that period.
“You must have some circle of friends. Have you asked them? Also doi you think the majority of people in Ireland would refer to them as such?”
This is the Google search I was talking about. I’m assuming you didn’t try it. Go on, check it out. You may learn something.
“What was dangerous about what Mr Jackson said to the interviewer pray tell?
The only thing lacking here is your respect for people on the Island next to the one you love so well.”
Being corrected and looking a bit out of his depth. How is having knowledge of a group of islands’ heritage disrespectful?
congal claen,
you’ll see Pliny the Elder named the islands which made up the Britannias …
I think you mean Ptolemaeus, circa 150 AD.
‘Had you been born Prod Stones (an assumption I’m making here – apologies if it’s wrong) I reckon you’d be British and not Irish. There’s a more sensible path you know.’
Hang on you claimed eveyone is british. I hardly think thats a sensible position.
Pliny the Elder died circa AD 70 and he also referred to Hibernia did he not? He also mentioned all the little isles around britain. Are you suggesting he named all these? Surely they had names before him.
‘During this time the Political construct was the UK. Not the British Isles. British Isles pre and post dates that period.’
Hang on I thought the UK was still around today???
‘Being corrected and looking a bit out of his depth.’
I fail to see how by correcting the interviewer Mr Jackson was out of his depth.
‘How is having knowledge of a group of islands’ heritage disrespectful?’
Its not but claiming everyone is british is rather a bit, is it not?
I posted this on another thread (getting mixed up, maybe), but it is more valid here:
It is questionable whether the ‘Q’ celts were even in Ireland much before 50 BC. It is likely that 2000 years go we were all ‘P’ celts (or Priteni), in Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales. The Q celts came from Gaul, so I imagine that they were mostly Q celts there before they were romanised.
Ptolemaeus may have been correct (tho he based his map on information that was old even in his time); subsequent invasion by the non-Pretanic Q celts made Ireland non-Pretanic, and made the calling of these islands ‘Pretanic’ obsolete. Don’t worry, congal claen, you’re only 1800 years out of date!
The seafearers handbook ‘Massaliot Periplus’ also refers to the Islands now known as Ireland and Britain as well. This was in the 6th century BC. Pliny the Elder lived about 600yrs later.
I think that Polly Anna makes the most sense so far on this thread. Major confrontation between rival groups is extremely unlikely unless both the PSNI and the SF leadership colluded to allow , even orchestrate it and surely not even the most excitable commentator on this site (apart from youknowwho) would envision that.
There might be some stand-off between returning loyalists, pretending to be frustrated at missing confrontation, and the PSNI; and some low-level missile throwing from the Markets but none of it will knock Georgina from off the front of the red-tops come Monday morning.
It is all a matter of priorities and as a generality those showing tits prevail over those making tits (of themselves).
Rory,
Its all about posturing. As long as each feels they’ve shouted loudest then they’ll go back home feeling big. Nobody actually wants a riot. It’s a matter of seeming to have stood up for/against whatever that is important. Games, games, games, while behind it all, hidden behind this smokescreen of mock indignation (on both sides) other things are probably happening.
Hi Horseman,
“I think you mean Ptolemaeus, circa 150 AD.”
No, I meant Pliny. However, as you say Ptolemy also named Ireland as being in the Britannias which rather backs up what I’m saying.
“It is questionable whether the ‘Q’ celts were even in Ireland much before 50 BC. It is likely that 2000 years go we were all ‘P’ celts (or Priteni), in Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales. The Q celts came from Gaul, so I imagine that they were mostly Q celts there before they were romanised.
Ptolemaeus may have been correct (tho he based his map on information that was old even in his time); subsequent invasion by the non-Pretanic Q celts made Ireland non-Pretanic, and made the calling of these islands ‘Pretanic’ obsolete. Don’t worry, congal claen, you’re only 1800 years out of date!”
Iberia I believe, not Gaul – for those that came to Ireland. The Q and P just refer to how they pronounced certain words/letters. It’s like saying that because we all speak English now that we’re English! Something I’m sure you’d reject. Largely, the population hasn’t changed much in terms of genes. Identity has and some choose to reject the identity of their forebears. Hence, this discussion. Pretanic is more ancient than British and shouldn’t be confused. However, good bit of groundwork there Horseman. Perhaps over time it’ll sink in.
Hi Stones,
“Hang on you claimed eveyone is british. I hardly think thats a sensible position.”
In the same way that anyone born on Irleand is also Irish. What I was doing was comparing you to an extreme unionist and trying to demonstrate how alike you are with their position.
“Pliny the Elder died circa AD 70 and he also referred to Hibernia did he not? He also mentioned all the little isles around britain. Are you suggesting he named all these? Surely they had names before him.”
Almost certainly. When I say named, I meant he wrote down which islands were in the Britannias. Not that he actually gave them their names. FFS!
“Hang on I thought the UK was still around today???”
Completely out of context. I was just explaining to you that British Isles does not convey ownership by Britain. When Ireland was part of the UK the political construct was the UK. Not the British Isles. They’re not the same. Being part of the British Isles does not mean that you’re politically British. In the same way, I’m Irish as in “of Ireland” but I’m not politically Irish. That was also my point about the Irish Sea not conveying ownership to Ireland. But, you failed to grasp that point either. Fingers crossed eh?
“I fail to see how by correcting the interviewer Mr Jackson was out of his depth.”
Well, that’s hardly a surprise. You’ve failed to see most points during this discussion.
“Its not but claiming everyone is british is rather a bit, is it not?”
No.
“The seafearers handbook ‘Massaliot Periplus’ also refers to the Islands now known as Ireland and Britain as well. This was in the 6th century BC. Pliny the Elder lived about 600yrs later.”
And what was his collective term for all the islands?
‘In the same way that anyone born on Irleand is also Irish.’
So everyone born in Ireland is both british and Irish?
‘When I say named, I meant he wrote down which islands were in the Britannias. Not that he actually gave them their names. FFS!’
So when you say someone named something you mean he didn’t name them. Right gotcha.
‘But, you failed to grasp that point either. Fingers crossed eh?’
Eh no, Im not the person who says something, which once proven untrue, then says he actually meant something else FFS.
‘Well, that’s hardly a surprise. You’ve failed to see most points during this discussion.’
Ok, i’ll ask again, how by correcting the interviewer was Mr Jackson being dangerous and out of his depth?
‘No.’
Ok so calling people British when they themselves say they are not is not disrespectful. Ok gotcha.
‘And what was his collective term for all the islands?’
Whose?
congal claen,
Iberia I believe, not Gaul – for those that came to Ireland.
You’re basing yourself on myth, not history. The argument for Spain is entirely artificial, with zero evidence. [ref. O’Rahilly p. 195, ggn
)
The Q and P just refer to how they pronounced certain words/letters. It’s like saying that because we all speak English now that we’re English! Something I’m sure you’d reject.
What’s your point? Are ou arguing that they weren’t ‘celtic’, even tho language is actually the primary defining feature of that categorisation.
Pretanic is more ancient than British and shouldn’t be confused.
Huh? It’s the source of the word ‘British’ (and ‘cruthin’ too, by the way – Q-celt version)
“his collective term”
meant “their collective term”.
Hi Stones,
“So everyone born in Ireland is both british and Irish?
You’ve finally got it!
“So when you say someone named something you mean he didn’t name them. Right gotcha.”
Yeah that’s exactly right! So, if someone says name the members of Westlife, you actually get to name them. FFS, just when you were making progress!
“Eh no, Im not the person who says something, which once proven untrue, then says he actually meant something else FFS.”
See above.
“Ok, i’ll ask again, how by correcting the interviewer was Mr Jackson being dangerous and out of his depth?”
Because he only had a bit of knowledge. Had the interviewer pressed him that could’ve been shown. BTW, before you go taking things out of context again, when I said dangerous I didn’t mean he was going to explode or something similar.
“Ok so calling people British when they themselves say they are not is not disrespectful. Ok gotcha.”
Again it’s context. This argument arose from some posters saying it was ridiculous that British troops should march through an Irish city – that they’re mutually exclusive terms. I’m pointing out that that isn’t the case.
“Whose?”
The Greeks who wrote the book.
congal claen,
You’ve finally got it!
Ah, nope, wrong. Most of the Irish people are not British, either legally, geographically, or in terms of their identity. That you call these islands ‘British’ doesn’t make it so. On the other hand, NI is Irish – Britain’s own constitution says so!
The Greeks who wrote the book.
The book is lost. Only remnants re-written hundreds of years later by a Roman survive. Hardly a trustworthy source. Also, I note you are unable to actually quote what the ‘book’ says. My latin is rusty, but don’t feel shy testing it.
Hi Horseman,
“You’re basing yourself on myth, not history. The argument for Spain is entirely artificial, with zero evidence. [ref. O’Rahilly p. 195, ggn
)”
You have a point. That long ago it’s hard to be sure. However, I don’t base that entirely on myth. For example, the hillforts found in and around where I’m from, built by the Gaels as offensive structures (militarily speaking), are of a form found in Spain. You also have the Barbary ape skull found at Navan. Then there’s the languge. Irish Gaelic is quite archaic so you’d expect it to be on the fringes. Spain is more on the fringe than Gaul.
“What’s your point? Are ou arguing that they weren’t ‘celtic’, even tho language is actually the primary defining feature of that categorisation.”
No. You said that the Q Celts came from Gaul. I’m querying that. I’m almost sure Gaul would’ve changed prior to Britain. As you already said The British Isles, including Ireland, were P Celtic prior to the arrival of the Q celtic Gaels.
“Huh? It’s the source of the word ‘British’ (and ‘cruthin’ too, by the way – Q-celt version)”
I think you’re wrong there too Horseman. Cruthin is indeed the Q celtic form of Priteni, a P celtic term. However, these islands were described as Pritenic before they were described as British. The Brits are a later arrival.
BTW, open to correction on the above.
‘You’ve finally got it!’
Like I said, disrespectful, to put a label on people that they themselves would not choose.
‘Yeah that’s exactly right! So, if someone says name the members of Westlife, you actually get to name them. FFS, just when you were making progress!’
No need to get angry just because you were wrong. BTW, aren’t you a bit old for wetlife?
‘Because he only had a bit of knowledge. Had the interviewer pressed him that could’ve been shown.’
Eh, it seems you have confirmed his analysis that the british do indeed claim those that don’t belong to them. Well done.
‘that they’re mutually exclusive terms.’
For some they’re not. But you seem to infer thats the case for everyone, thus once again confirming the attitude Mr Jackson was alluding to.
‘The Greeks who wrote the book.’
Care to enlighten me?
congal claen,
Your argument for Spain is laughably weak. Read O’Rahilly, then come back!
You said that the Q Celts came from Gaul. I’m querying that.
On the basis of … ? Again, do some reading.
The Brits are a later arrival.
The ‘Brits’ are not a people! They are a mixture of peoples. No ‘Brits’ (as such) ever arrived – the various peoples in Britain adopted that appellation, but it could just as easily have been Albion, or Anglia Magna, or something else.
Hi Horseman,
“Ah, nope, wrong. Most of the Irish people are not British, either legally, geographically, or in terms of their identity.”
I accept NI is Irish geographically and in terms of identity. Why wouldn’t I? Not politically though. The same applies to the RoI in terms of Britishness.
“That you call these islands ‘British’ doesn’t make it so.”
And therefore, that you don’t doesn’t mean that it isn’t. Do you want to do the Google search for “British Isles” versus “Great Britain and Ireland” as a guage of what most people call them?
“On the other hand, NI is Irish – Britain’s own constitution says so!”
Britain doesn’t have a constitution in the normal sense.
“The book is lost. Only remnants re-written hundreds of years later by a Roman survive. Hardly a trustworthy source. Also, I note you are unable to actually quote what the ‘book’ says. My latin is rusty, but don’t feel shy testing it.”
That’s why I was asking Stones – I don’t know what he called them.
Hi Stones,
“No need to get angry just because you were wrong. BTW, aren’t you a bit old for wetlife?”
Firstly, I wasn’t. Secondly, it was a joke. Keep yer knickers on ffs.
“Eh, it seems you have confirmed his analysis that the british do indeed claim those that don’t belong to them. Well done.”
For about the fifth time the term British or indeed Irish does not always convey ownership. When Kate says, “Yea! but he’s one of our own!” you would have to be a wee bit precious to jump to the conclusion you’ve jumped to. Comparing it to slavery is just a stupid comment by Jackson.
‘that they’re mutually exclusive terms.’
“For some they’re not. But you seem to infer thats the case for everyone, thus once again confirming the attitude Mr Jackson was alluding to.”
See above.
“Care to enlighten me?”
It was your point. I thought that would mean you’d be enlightening me. No? Anyhow, I was asking you what the collective term for these islands was in the book you mentioned – the Massaliot Periplus.
congal claen,
Britain doesn’t have a constitution in the normal sense.
It has a name, though? Remind yourself what it is.
Hi Horseman,
“Your argument for Spain is laughably weak. Read O’Rahilly, then come back!”
If so, you’ll have no problem pointing out the errors. It would also save me a loada reading.
“On the basis of … ? Again, do some reading.”
On the basis of p celtic speakers not usually reverting to q celtic. So, I was wondering how the Gauls could have been Q Celtic speakers at the time when Britain was already P celtic. The Britons just being across the sea from Gaul. How did the P celtic language jump to Britain and miss Gaul?
“The ‘Brits’ are not a people! They are a mixture of peoples. No ‘Brits’ (as such) ever arrived – the various peoples in Britain adopted that appellation, but it could just as easily have been Albion, or Anglia Magna, or something else.”
I don’t dispute what you say here. However, my point was that the term Briton did not derive from Preteni. Are you disputing that?
Hi Horseman,
“It has a name, though? Remind yourself what it is.”
The British Constitution is many documents, laws, etc. So, if you’ve some point to make here you’d be better coming out with it as I’m not seeing it.
BTW, I’m near wrecked with this. You and Stones are like a tag team! I’ll look in again tomorrow. Have a good one.
‘Firstly, I wasn’t. Secondly, it was a joke. Keep yer knickers on ffs.’
Firstly i know, secondly, so was I. Plus im rocking the oldschool y-fronts at the mo.
‘For about the fifth time the term British or indeed Irish does not always convey ownership.’
I would agree to a point, it does not mean ownership. But it does sort of infer such, whether meant to or not. This is particularly true of uneducated sorts (see Brians new thread – ‘One for the true believers’). Im sure you’ll agree.
‘No? Anyhow, I was asking you what the collective term for these islands was in the book you mentioned – the Massaliot Periplus.’
I hadn’t read that it contained a collective term. Just that it referenced the two Islands…perhaps Irene and Albion.
Im bit a dizzy with this as well. All we seem to have learned is that I wear Y-fronts, and you like Westlife. I won’t tell if you don’t.
“So everyone born in Ireland is both british and Irish”
Well then folks, thank god we weren’t invaded by the Romans or indeed the Angles and Saxons as ‘Britain’ itself was, for it has kept our ancient ‘British’ blood here in Ireland somewhat purer! A few Norsemen and Normans wouldn’t have diluted the blood too much! Those English blow-ins, depriving us of our age old ‘British’ gaelic language and enforcing the rule of their whimsical foreign English kings and queens over us!
Let’s take back Britain then for the Irish, the last of the true ‘Britons’! Starting with Kilburn, let the Irish tribes reclaim it for the last bastion of ancient ‘Britain’, Ireland!
….ahem!
Anyway, all we requested was Home Rule, to look after our own affairs and govern ourselves here in Ireland!
But really, Coz Pliny and who ever else described us all as belonging to the ‘British Isles’ thousand of years ago it does’t mean (nor never did) that it gives the automatic right for London to govern us all today here in Ireland or within these islands!
I bet had Iceland been a bit nearer to these shores at the time of early nautical navigation, I’m sure Pliny would have included it as part of ‘the British Isles’
British not Irish,
Irish not British,
and always twirling twirling towards freedom