Parades Commission & Andytown News give British Army their approval
The Parades Commission has approved the British military parade in Belfast on 2nd November, including last minute changes to their application moving the parade back to 11.45 and an additional band. They also restricted the SF counter-protest. The éirígí protest is unaffected as they did not apply for approval. The Andersonstown News has also backed the parade comparing protestors to Ian Paisley and those that opposed civil rights demands. [will they retract that next week? - Ed]
Update: Parades Commission determination on SF protest
Just a point of clarity. And no political view.
1 RIR was always the Royal Irish Rangers. All personnel below NCO are called such. It was never associated with the home service RIR or the UDR. While it served briefly in Fermanagh in the 1990′s, it never had any connection of note with the Ulster Defence Regiment, despite the 1992 merger. It has more in common with the Irish Guards (why are they not parading?) and the RN and RAF (who will be parading). 2 RIR is a TA unit mostly consisting of specialist personnel, Medics etc. who have civvie jobs here. This is for friends and families of the soldiers. I detect a lack of enthusiasm for protest among the higher echelons of SF, McGuinness included.
Without prejudice to the disbanded ex-UDR battalions Driftwood is of course correct about the distinction between the battalions and every nationalist over a certain age knows it. Congratulations to the Andytown News on a mature editorial. Many will spare a thought for Ranger Best, the young Derry solider home on leave murdered in May 1972 in his own streets by the Official IRA, against whose murder Bogside women fiercely protested and helped to wrap up that campaign. They understood very well that the Royal Irish Rangers had no part in the Army’s local role and that to kill a member of their own community was an abomination.
Mark you seem to have picked up some of Pete Baker’s style!
Slug,
Out, out damned spot.
There’s a bit of Turgon ;0)
Just a question for the posters here if I read the Parades commission determination right:
The Sinn Fein/IRA counter demonstration will leave Bank Square no later than 1130hrs and march 300m to approximately Queens Arcade (40m form Donegall Square North, Donegall Place junction) were it will become a static protest.
The Royal Irish Regiment Parade will start at RBAI at 1145hrs.
So the Sinn Fein/IRA protesters will be in place as the Royal Irish Regiment parade is just starting.
If supporters of the Royal Irish Regiment Parade form North and West Belfast wish to get to the parade focal point at the City Hall and they travel by bus or on foot via Royal Avenue they will then walk strait into the Sinn Fein/IRA protest demonstration!
Just wondering if the parades commission took this into their determination, that supporters of the Royal Irish Regiment form North and West areas of Belfast will be going through the Sinn Fein/IRA lines?
Or do the families and friends of the Royal Irish Regiment form North and West Belfast not get any consideration form the parades commission?
Pisst; can someone please tell the PSNI just in case they haven’t work this out yet?
Ranger,
I’d also thought about this. The timings and assembly point mean the éirígí demonstrators could easily enter the city centre as it can’t be sealed due to the ‘legal’ SF protest. Also those demonstrators are unlikely to face a ‘ring of steel’ due to the need to allow supporters in.
I intend to photoblog the days events as best I can.
slug
What works, works. ;o)
I assume Hugh Orde can call on military back up here to prevent civil unrest. The reinstatement of operational duties for the Army garrison here should present SF with no difficulties since Defence is not a devolved matter. I look forward to Gerry Adams congratulating 2 Rifles and the Grenadier Guards for their handling of this ‘peaceful’ and ‘dignified’ protest by the Irish Special Brew Brigade (West Belfast Battalion).
ranger you did read part of it wrong, It is a sinn fein protest, the ira did not apply for any kind of a parade.
Driftwood, The last time the army were called in to put down civil unrest here all hell broke out for the next thirty years. Please , no more repeat of that.
So the Commission allows the paraders to parade and the protestors to protest. All within reason and without anybody getting their human rights trampled on. A reasonable outcome?
The problem will not really be about the 2 ‘official’ Parades. Sinn Fein will marshall it’s own supporters as will the RIR. The Shinners have been reluctantly drawn into this to take the heat off some possible dissident trouble at their march. It’s those not affliliated to both the Sinn Fein/RIR events who could cause problems. I think Unionists should give this a bit of thought before they throw brickbats at Sinn Fein. You will have Loyalists coming from the Shore Road and Shankill direction who will converge with other elements from the New Lodge and Ardoyne areas. Then you will have those from East Belfast possibly clashing with Short Strand/Markets areas. The cops will need a ring of steel in the city centre that day and as our experiences show, you can’t police EVERY area. Remember the Combat 18/UDA thugs who attacked the bars in Castle Street/King Street recently? I can see Nationalists in these areas preparing themselves this time. All round it doesn’t look good. I would fear for any innocent caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. It’s a disaster waiting to happen and I think there are some politicians, especially within Unionism, who wouldn’t be too unhappy at this.
“The Shinners have been reluctantly drawn into this to take the heat off some possible dissident trouble at their march.”
An interesting argument, LURIG.
Spoiled somewhat by Sinn Féin’s legitimising of any protest against the Royal Irish Regiment parade by organising a protest of their own.
Or is only the Sinn Féin organised protest authorised?
Not to mention the fact that the éirígí protest had already been announced before Sinn Féin stepped into the breach, dear friends..
LURIG
I actually agree with you that some headcases will be looking forward to this. As for some Unionist politicians…I dunno. Dissident republicans defo. Big headache for PSNI, but I see no reason not to use the Army garrison here to help out. Might even be useful to see the British Army defending SF hierarchy. After all they do pay them.
Well then Pete I will say to you, is protest against the Wars OK so long as Irish people don’t take part? The most potent anti-Iraq and Afghanistan War marches have taken place in mainland Britain, especially London, so is legitimate protest here to be disallowed only because it’s Republicans and Nationalists who want to voice their disapproval of the illegal Wars too? Surely those Unionists who shout loudest about ‘British Democracy’ will know that Britain has a tradition of legitimate ‘Democratic Protest’. Don’t you want to see this in the North also? You can’t have it both ways. Those within Unionism now getting worked up about the Sinn Fein march knew exactly that there would be protests given the reputation of the RIR/UDR within the Catholic community. The North is not the same as Finchley despite what Margaret Thatcher said. Those organising the RIR parade also knew there would be a Nationalist response and, I would say, are quite happy at the furore. Some Unionists expected the Parades Commission to fall in behind the RIR march and also ban the treasonous Rebel Fenians. It hasn’t happened but I would say we haven’t heard the last of this. I can see the PSNI stepping in and banning the Sinn Fein and eirigi parades on ‘Security’ and ‘Public Order’ grounds OR lashing out at the protestors if trouble kicks off. It’s the usual form. I also predict a response from the Loyalist Uncle Andy’s and Big Mervyn’s who will now wade in and can see both sides now urging as many supporters as possible to turn up. Petrol, oil and a burning fire. It has ALL the recipes for serious disorder. Welcome to OUR world as Jim Reeves might have sang.
Recipes??? I meant ‘Ingredients’. I must read that Nigella book more often.
So the Commission allows the paraders to parade and the protestors to protest. All within reason and without anybody getting their human rights trampled on. A reasonable outcome?
A recipe for civil disorder.
The parades commission should not have allowed this situation to arise.
Did the Andytown news really say it was ok for the British Army to march on Irish streets or did I misread something? If the Andytown News are really journalists with their finger on the pulse from Andytown why was it a surprise to them that Irish people wanted to protest against the British Army?Are they saying that the British Army are now acceptable and their parades must be tolerated in the interests of fairness to the British people in Ireland? Mentalism! Teach Basil is now in early 1980s Irish News territory or worse.If Gerry (sorry the A/Town News) really thought counterprotesting was counterproductive he/they could have warned a lot of people a lot earlier, (say the ’70s and 80s). It would have saved a few cracked skulls around the place.
Driftwood,
Most of the headcases will be out marching in funny hats and funny suits and thinking how swell they look as they celebrate their contribution to two monumental defeats by shoeless tribesmen.
What’s the name of that song by the Kaiser Chiefs?
Decent piece by the any news with a good compromise suggested at the end.
All this marching and counter marching.
Whatever about academic selection the next generation in NI need to cultivate hobbies that cuts down on the marching aspect.
well done to the andytown news for a very mature editorial.
they obviously still object to the idea of this being a “homecoming for heroes” parade and view the RIR as brutal occupiers of foreign lands. however, there main point, and it is a good one, is that nothing will be served by organising a counter-protest on the same day.
if we want an anti-war protest, have one on another day, and reduce the risk of community tensions.
Or, if i could paraphrase – “stop trying to f*ck things up”.
Joining the “brits” may not be palatable for lots of nationalists, but lots of nationalists have done it. I don’t perceive iraq as a noble cause. i don’t perceive the british soliders as innocent and honourable in their individual actions there. but i also recognise that they too have had a crap time out there and are glad to be back home in one piece.
It seems that people were being told this was going to be a homecoming for an ” Expected Number of Supporters of 280 ” family members (http://www.paradescommission.org/parades/?parade=25327 ) Now? it’s being described by the newsletter today as ” Thousands of supporters are expected to gather in Belfast on Sunday, November 2 ” ( http://www.newsletter.co.uk/editorial/Our-troops-must-not-get.4621670.jp )
I hope adequate provision is being made…
Not that I give a fiddlers either way frankly (not happening in my backyard) but if I was a member of éirígí, I would extremely concerned at the following highly dangerous libel posted in the Newsletter article:
“These are the same dissidents who have been trying their utmost to murder police officers and civilians all over Ulster.”
Particularly in view of the fact that UDA leaders have calling for large numbers of people (presumably the beneficiaries of “the peoples guns”, which have yet to be decommissioned) to take to the streets.
Havent walked through the city centre for a week or two. Are there any improvement works on the streets at the minute? Hate to think the ‘protesters’ would have access to a ready supply of ammo as they did on OConnell St.
Given the political ‘vacuum’ and rising tensions, this could go either way, peaceful all round, or descent in to violence, with the possibility of someone being seriously injured or even killed. Cue predictable hand washing and blame game. Hard to see the Executive surviving that. But maybe that’s the plan.
The Army are supposedly involved in Afghanistan to secure democracy for the Afghans. Would it not be ironic if the shinners were banned from protesting as would be allowed in any democracy?
The parades commission have got this right. Now, lets just hope the same mature approach is taken to the Garvaghy Road – parade and counter demo without burning the country.
Just ‘cos the unionists on Belfast City Council invited the British Army to march it doesn’t mean that they have to march. The army should realise the shit that this is going to bring down and then cancel the march. If they can’t figure it out for themselves the Secretary of State should tell them. Have the homecoming in Lisburn, Castlereagh, Newtonabbey but not in Belfast – the idea is sheer lunacy!
Congael
There is the problem of the eirigi illegal protest. The police in Bangor are showing the way on this:
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/mamba-mia-police-halt-elephants-illegal-parade-14010092.html
Picador
Belfast City centre is the natural venue for the homecoming. The MoD are the organisers so it’s up to the Defence secretary. For the Army to call off the march would be a pathetic surrender to mob rule. SF’s attempts to link Afghanistan,the UDR (which has no linkage to 1 RIR or 2 RIR) and whatever they can imagine, is cover for plain old troublemaking.
Driftwood
Belfast City centre is the natural venue for the homecoming.
I would say that it is one of the stupidest places to have a homecoming. And apparently I’m not alone.
Mobs are being assembled on both sides of the divide. MoD – call it off now!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7689634.stm
The people Mark McGregor and Colin Duffy are protesting against.
Sad.
Bollix,
Are you suggesting that everything that went before was immature now that you are a grown up constitutional nationalist? I don’t mean to be awkward (I really do buy the ” remember Bik making toast for the screws” leadership line)and would hate to screw the six counties thing up for anybody, but maybe it’s not so much an anti-war protest. Maybe it’s an anti-brit protest and its not foreign occupation they are protesting
Driftwood,
Sounds like you’re excited about the prospects
Driftwood – sadder still that over 90 years after vacating the main part of the country the british army maintain that they still have the right to parade their troops through the gerrymandered statelet that they hoped to hold on to in perpetuity.
And worse yet – the whole thing is to celebrate the return of a volunteer army who went off to fight a senseless war to secure america’s access to oil, killing up to a million civilians in the process.
They are not heroes. They were not defending their country or families. They were at best completely misguided doing a filthy job – a job for which they volunteered. I am glad their families got to see them get home safely, but I dont see why what they did, or indeed what they are, should be celebrated through the centre of Belfast.
I noticed loyalists erecting RIR flags in East Belfast this morning. The paramilitary shop on the Newtownards Road seem to be selling them alongside thier uvf/uff/owc merchandise.
Circles
The British Army havent vacated NI, they maintain a garrison here, which SF signed up to support at St Andrews. Whatever YOUR view of them, their families are entitled to this.
Latcheeco, No i’m not excited, I think the prospects for trouble are real, and will help no-ones cause.
frank
That really is pathetic, the shop I mean. Unfortunately what should have been a low key homecoming parade has turned in to a tribal bunfight with everyone jumping on the bandwagon.
Are SF now adding the Taleban to FARC etc as their worldwide solidarity group of friends?
‘Are SF now adding the Taleban to FARC etc as their worldwide solidarity group of friends?’
No, the Afghan people. Pathetic Drift, but what would one expect from someone so in tune to the machinations of British Crown Forces.
RS, the alternative for the Afghan people to the military intervention is the Taleban. The medical aid provided by the RIR (and all of 16 Air Assault Brigade)is very real.
This SF anti- war stance is very hollow when Martin McGuinness was brown nosing George W Bush here a few months ago.
This is an IRISH Regiment of the army. My only query is why the Irish Guards are not involved.
ps RS, Are SF still supporting the Colombian druglords? Or has that been quietly dropped now FARC campaigner Ruane is Education minister?
Drift me ‘aul flower the alternative to the Taliban isn’t much to shout about…
http://www.asadismi.ws/joya.html
British demands for democracy and peace in certain areas round the world ring very hollow, as they have always done.
It seems your not only fully aware of british army tactics here and in other colonial conflicts, now you have all the facts surrounding the Shinners foreign escapades too. My how you get around.
RS
My political philosopy is as follows
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=p86BPM1GV8M
But I do come from a unionist working class background in a ‘mixed’ estate, meadowlands, in Downpatrick, now completely ‘nationalist’.
Yes I have relatives in the armed forces and a background there when leaving school. So I admit to a bias towards “crown forces” as you term them. Most of them are working class kids from deprived areas who have little interest in world politics. Their Officer class are well versed in such things, and their political masters well aware of their potential as ‘cannon fodder’. Now these kids have families and parents who are just so glad to see their sons (and some daughters) back alive. What harm is a homecoming parade to proud parents going to cause? It was going to be relatively low key and offend no-one save those looking for a bandwagon to offload other issues, not least the political stalemate here. SF and the Unionist parties should never have got involved here. This stinks of an outlet for political frustration elsewhere and ANY excuse to offload those frustrations would do.
I have no problem with your political outlook or philosophy. I hope, like me, you want this parade to go peacefully on all sides, and conflict is avoided.
‘It was going to be relatively low key’
It would be hard not to notice the British bomber and jet flypast?
Low key?
lee
RAF fighters and bombers routinely fly over Co. Antrim and Co. Down, including some Tornados last week. If it’s a problem to you write to your MP.
Drift feel free to live on a dot all you want. As regards this parade, considering british army activity here in Ireland down through not just decades, but centuries, I think people are entirely justified in protesting this parade not just because of history here, but also because of the mayhem they have wrought further afield at the behest of the neo-cons in the USA. It seems you wish to portray the endeavour in Afghanistan as being one to improve the lot of the average Afghani. Frankly thats complete bollocks. Whats more I think you know that. They are merely their to help Bush catch those he deems responsible for 9/11. If Britain actually cared about freeing the Afghan populace from Taliban rule, they would have went in in the late 90s. So this line you seem to peddle of them being there helping to improving the lives of the Afgahnis is both bullshit and tiresome.
“The Shinners have been reluctantly drawn into this to take the heat off some possible dissident trouble at their march.”
LURIG
I don’t see how the Provos have done anything reluctantly. Their presence can only add to the mix of potential sources of trouble. Far from taking the heat off they will turn up the pressure cooker.
If eirigi was the only/main group protesting then numbers would have been limited, given that they have next to no support. They could have been easily policed. The Provos have waded in and add another element of potential trouble. No doubt that ‘youth’ wing of theirs (Ogra Shinn Fein) will be there, making all sorts of militaristic style statements before the event. And no doubt trying to outdo the eirigi lot in terms of selective anti-war, pretend socialist rhetoric and action.
If restraint is what is called for, the Provos adding to the mix won’t help. Their presence as the mainstream of what ‘republicanism’ has become (even though it isn’t republicanism any longer) will only ensure that a pissing match will develop to see who can be (or pretend to be) the most republican/socialist/anti-war on the day.
The increased numbers of the whole thing will only provide more cover for whatever non-aligned republican scumsters decide to make this a replay of the attempted Love Ulster parade in Dublin. If trouble starts you can be sure it will end in an ‘us v them’ scrap, with republicans of various sorts (including the Provo pretend kind) taking on whatever security forces are in place.
Afterwards all sorts of claims will be made, just as they were in Dublin. Some will be proud that they stuck it to the man, some will say that the security forces were too heavy handed etc etc. In other words the usual excuses. Some non-aligned republican scumsters will start some bother, others will be drawn in on a tribal basis and afterwards everyone will say what they always say.
I’m off now to see what Ogra are saying – I’ll bet they are trying to out-rebel eirigi already. They will be ‘organizing billets’ and ‘mobilising’ as they like to say, along with all the rest of their faux-military jargon.
“Are they saying that the British Army are now acceptable and their parades must be tolerated in the interests of fairness to the British people in Ireland?”
latcheeco:
Why shouldn’t they say this? If they believe in the Belfast Agreement and the wider peace process then they no doubt accept the central point that unionism and nationalism are equally legitimate political aspirations and that unionists and nationalists are free to express themselves so long as such expression is reasonable.
Maybe the AN style nationalists get this point even if many other nationalists don’t. Many other nationalists still have a ‘we’re right, you’re wrong’ attitude and we see it in the complaints about this parade. Thus you hear all the blubbering about ‘no British feet on Irish streets’ nonsense.
The simple fact is that NI is still part of the UK until a majority of NI people decide otherwise. At the moment there is a pro-British majority in NI and while NI remains in the UK under this current agreement, those British folks are going to be expressing their Britishness, not matter what eirigi, or the Provos, or any other bunch of nationalists think.
There are republican parades all over NI all of the time. Unionists see that and more often than not ignore those parades. There are OO and other parades that appeal to members of the unionist community, and nationalists are going to have to get used to that. This parade will no doubt not appeal to nationalists and nationalists are free to either stay away or turn up and protest.
But the parade should not be banned because of the organization that is marching, no matter how much trouble there might be because of nationalist protestors. NI is British at present and so British feet can, and will, march on what are British streets
“Have the homecoming in Lisburn, Castlereagh, Newtonabbey but not in Belfast – the idea is sheer lunacy!”
picador:
I thought the issue here was either 1 of 2 things (or even both for some people) –
1. That the British Army will be marching on Irish streets and that it’s a terrible thing that these agents of the British oppressor will be marching anywhere on the island of Ireland,
2. That the parade will give protestors an opportunity to protest about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
If those things are really what the objections arise from, then what difference does it make if the parade is in Lisburn or Castleregh, versus Belfast? Is Lisburn less Irish than Belfast to republicans? Would the RIR stop being a part of the war machine of the evil British oppressor if it marched in Castlereagh? Will eirigi suddenly change their minds about this parade if they have to bus their members to Lisburn or Newtownabbey to oppose the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?
What you post is nonsense. If the protestors really mean it they would turn up anywhere in NI to oppose a march by the RIR.
Are you saying that Belfast is somehow special and that the protestors wouldn’t bother if the parade was held elsewhere? If so then the protestors don’t really believe in what they claim to believe in, and it’s actually all about Belfast.
“I think people are entirely justified in protesting this parade”
RepStones:
And I say the best of British luck to them. They are going to be allowed to protest. In the best British traditions.
So what’s the problem? Those who want to pay tribute to the troops can attend the parade, and those who want to protest can also do so.
I just hope that the protestors do so peacefully.
It would be awfully strange if these supposed anti-war protestors decided to use violence, wouldn’t it? The thing that I worry about is that some of these protestors aren’t ‘anti’ all war/violence. Their opposition to violence and war is selective.
But I’m sure that on this occasion they will contain themselves. But if they don’t I’m sure they already have their excuses ready. The old ‘we were forced to be violent by themmuns’ angle to things.
Harpo,
I am being pragmatic not dogmatic. The reality is that parades of this nature would face little opposition from the citizens of Lisburn, Castlereagh, etc. Not so Belfast.
Harpo,
“so long as such expression is reasonable.” That’s the fly in the buttermilk here. Triumphalist marches by the British army through an Irish town (or even a 50% nationalist town if you will) do not appear to many nationalists to be that reasonable or even in the spirit of the GFA (else the boys of the old brigade would also be receiving civic honors at the City Hall).The point of the GFA was surely not to set the clock back to pre-1969 N.Ireland but this time with happier and slightly more mollified taigs. In fact clearly to many nationalists this parade is sheer lunacy on many levels. It is more likely, as other posters have suggested, that the ATN editorial was concerned about the growth of Eirigi and where that might go and not the expression of some live and let live moment with Unionists.I doubt they ever expressed any concern about Nationalist protests of British parades in Ireland before (ask any Orangeman)and IMHO rightly so. That is also why SF were forced/embarrassed into scrambling a bigger (we have more support than you) protest. Strategically they would rather have let this one slide in the interests of the nouvelle entente.As a unionist (I am presuming you are from your posts;humble apologies if you are not) the ATN’s implied support for the British army to quietly parade by Nationalist areas and denunciation of protesters like Eirigi is no doubt gratifying for you.
‘NI is British at present and so British feet can, and will, march on what are British streets’
Afraid not harpo me ‘aul flower. Not to be a pedant, but the north isn’t actually british and the fact that Thatcher had to refer to it being just like Finchley is indicative of this. The north is Irish. People are free to identify themselves as british, but just because a foreign legislature enacts a politcal union does not magically turn a land into something which it is not. Britain is an island, Ireland is one too. No doubt you think because China governs Tibet, that Lhasa’s streets are chinese. Obviously you may retort with the grossly outdated ‘British Isles’, in that case I’ll book you a ticket to Siam or Ceylon.
‘Their opposition to violence and war is selective.’
Agreed, just like some peoples opposition to and definition of terrorism.
If they believe in the Belfast Agreement and the wider peace process then they no doubt accept the central point that unionism and nationalism are equally legitimate political aspirations and that unionists and nationalists are free to express themselves so long as such expression is reasonable.
If the Irish army were also allowed to march in NI, then it might be an equality issue.
There is nothing egalitarian about allowing the British army to parade through Belfast.
It is even less egalitarian to suggest that those who support it should be allowed to express their view publically, but not those who oppose it.