“We are sitting arsing about..”
Northern Ireland’s First and deputy First Ministers are due to appear in front of the relevant Assembly Committee today [Adds online here] but, in the meantime, the battle over the deadlocked Executive continues to played out in the media. The deputy First Minister
Mr McGuinness said that the situation was “very serious” but that the institutions could only work on a basis of “partnership and equality”. “In the course of recent days we have been engaged in a number of discussions with the DUP aimed at agreeing an agenda for an executive meeting on Thursday,” he said. “Agreeing an agenda means that all issues of concern need to be put on the agenda – not simply those of concern to the unionist community or the DUP. “Despite our efforts this has not succeeded and no progress has been made.”
We’ve heard the “very serious” warning before. And the First Minister
“The only reasons that they have publicly given for the executive not meeting are that the agenda is in some way being constrained,” said Mr Robinson. “I am saying we can have an open agenda, we can deal with whatever issues, including policing and justice, which can be raised at the executive table if they wish.”
Hard to disagree with the UUP’s Reg Empey though..
“We are sitting arsing about, arguing about something that means nothing to people in the short term.”
Of course, it is important to some in the short term..
CS
“The US and Irish governments are, at the moment, outright hostile to Sinn Fein. Did you notice how Gerry Adams has been running to London for help, and not Dublin ?”
On the matter at hand – namely P&J;, the 3 govts have been united and been very clear about what they want to see happen. Indeed, Gordon Brown could not have been any clearer in his recent speech at Stormont.
Unlike you, I am very in touch with the feelings in the Nationalist community. It is very clear that the DUP are simply trying to block everything that eminates from the Nationalist community.
As I said, I do not support Sinn Fein and I frankly don’t feel strongly about i.e. the Irish Language Act.
However, I am not stupid and neither are most Nationalists/Catholics. The prevailing perception is that the DUP are not interested in partnership govt or compromise.
The P&J;issue is in some ways the straw that broke the camel’s back.
The tactics that Sinn Fein are adopting are simply those used by Unionists for decades.
To be honest, I have little regard for most local politicians and think the assembly is a waste of time anyway.
Whether you like it or not, the political reality is clear – no compromise on P&J;and the assembly will likely fall.
If it does, it will be viewed by those who matter as a result of DUP intransigience.
It is also clear that any move to direct rule will be a move closer to joint authority. If you think that the UK govt actually wants ro run this place directly and foot the massive bills, you’re living in cloud cuckoo land.
The P&J;issue is simply the make or break point for this assembly. Either Unionists (the DUP in particular) prove that they are really capable of compromise and partnership govt with Nationalists\Catholics or they’re not.
If they can do it, then everyone benefits. However, if they’re not willing to co-operate then why should Nationalists continue to participate in a sham govt where they are viewed as second class citizens whose aspirations will be blocked at every turn?
From a Nationalist viewpoint, we’ll be better off with Direct rule from a govt that has no real belief in the “Union” with the North and that will be happy to let the RoI Govt have a large and increasing input.
Despite what Unionist (and Alliance) supporters are trying to portray, there is no real political pressure on Sinn Fein.
They have the support of the Nationalist community and the prevailing viewpoint beyond the North is that the main problem is Unionist (DUP) intransigence.
It’s time for the DUP to bite the bullet (no pun intended). They can really try to work with Catholics\Nationalists in a power sharing assembly or they can continue to play to the TUV element and abuse their position.
However, if they do that, they’ll lose their assembly. If that happens, I think it will be a very long time (if ever) that they are given any local authority again.
It’ll simply be the first step on the road to joint authority and, once that journey starts, there will be no going back.
Clearly SF want Stormo to continue
Not according to Billy, who says that it will benefit nationalists if it collapsed. I wanted to understand his thinking. I don’t agree with him, I think nationalists are worse off without Stormont. I think everyone is worse off without it.
– the strength of their position is that they fear its collapse a lot less that the DUP do and have all the major players in their camp.
Nonsense. There is no endorsement of the present Sinn Fein position, and no endorsement of anything which would lead to a collapse, from any of the parties which are elected in the assembly other than Sinn Fein themselves.
You’re just plain wrong if you believe that just because there is support among the governments on the need to devolve policing and justice immediately means that the governments are in any position to force the issue. They aren’t, and the likelihood of slim minorities in Westminster going forward means that this is likely to continue. Sinn Fein are wedded to powersharing in a way that the DUP are not, they have bet the shop on it. They’ve disarmed, nearly disbanded the IRA, supported policing, supported local government, all principles which they have thrown away. You can’t seriously believe that the position they are facing – going to their electorate and saying that it can’t work – is a position of strength.
It’s also wrong to say that policing and justice is perceived as a make or break issue. It is a serious problem and it needs to be sorted out, but there are many that are at least as serious, if not more. The idea that we should throw away the opportunity to work on the other 9 departments because of the 1 that is being delayed is nonsensical.
I wouldn’t be too sure of this “position of strength” thing. Look at what way the cards are dealt for Sinn Fein in the event that they decide that powersharing cannot continue. There is a very real possibility that the other parties will decide to continue the government without them, in the same way that we all decided to continue without the DUP during the previous executive. Do you think the governments will tear down a powersharing administration which represents the remaining 70% of the voters in NI in favour of some sort of cobbled-together joint authority situation ? And in any case, what on earth makes anyone believe that joint authority will work any better for republicans ? Are Irish politicians from Dublin likely to be better placed to solve the policing problems in West Belfast than those from London ? Who says that Dublin even want joint authority in the first place ?
That is the real politics of the current situation and what keeps Robbo awake at night.
Robbo has nothing to lose sleep over. He hasn’t staked his reputation on things, and he hasn’t spent the past 15 years negotiating to try to get into government. His supporters aren’t crazy about the idea of sharing power with SF and they’re not going to complain that loudly if it stops. Relations with the Irish government have never been better, and the Irish government don’t seem likely to undo all of that hard work by negotiating over the heads of unionists again.
Billy,
I’m certainly not in touch with the views of nationalists, or unionists, but I don’t think you are either.
Can you explain :
(a) what evidence you have that joint authority is likely
(b) how you think joint authority will serve the interests of nationalists, or anyone else ?
(c) why you believe the Irish government are interested in joint authority in the first place ? What is in it for them ? Why do you believe that the Irish government, having invested tremendous effort in improving relations with unionists, would go over their heads and destroy all that hard work for nothing ?
(d) why you believe that the three governments would discard the opportunity to create a powersharing government featuring SDLP/UUP/DUP/Alliance ? Why should the rest of us suffer just because Sinn Fein don’t want to play ? What makes you think that the rest of us cannot do a deal ? What are you going to do to stop it if it does happen ?
CS
I am not Billy but let me give it a shot
(a) what evidence you have that joint authority is likely
It is already the stated policy of the labour party who are still in charge and moves have already been made to put this system in place. Do you think its an accident that the Republic is financing new infrastructure in the north?
(b) how you think joint authority will serve the interests of nationalists, or anyone else ?
ILA Is a no brainer for the irish especially as they have one of their own
11+ already gone the way of the dodo in the UK and the Republic
P&J;While it wont be under the direct control of local government, It will be operated by people not beholden to the onionist ubermensch who believe themselves above the common taig, Add to that that every year more and more of the biggoted former ruc administrative staff retires or dies off, the PSNI is hardly perfect but its getting better with every funeral and retirement
(c) why you believe the Irish government are interested in joint authority in the first place ? What is in it for them ? Why do you believe that the Irish government, having invested tremendous effort in improving relations with unionists, would go over their heads and destroy all that hard work for nothing ?
Every country has national aspirations and if you think a political party from the republic is going to sell out Irishmen to onionists you should see if you could borrow some of John Oconnel’s medication
(d) why you believe that the three governments would discard the opportunity to create a powersharing government featuring SDLP/UUP/DUP/Alliance ? Why should the rest of us suffer just because Sinn Fein don’t want to play ? What makes you think that the rest of us cannot do a deal ? What are you going to do to stop it if it does happen ?
Because politics of exclusion are exactly what started and allowed the troubles to run for 30 years, any attempt to return to them will see IRA wannabe’s take to the field in numbers unseen since Bloody Sunday. The modern taig has not been conditioned to fear the police, while not too bright to begin with I predict they would be both reckless and fearless in any action attempted
P&J;While it wont be under the direct control of local government, It will be operated by people not beholden to the onionist ubermensch who believe themselves above the common taig,………….
er , if stormont falls p+j which be administered by exactly the same people who are doing it today..
ManicHumper,
You wrote “Because Sinn Fein highlight an issue, this does not mean that
A. the Roman Catholic population of Ireland express themselves through Sinn Fein
No arguements there, I never said they did. Most express themselves through the Dail Eireann govt who also agree (along with the British, US govts etc) the P+J should be devolved.
B. that a political party can ever be the consistent and accurate voice of the society
Very philosophical and again I don’t disagree. On a slightly more practical level have you ever considered that you voted for them, so until you philosphers can come up with a better idea than representative democracy then we are kinda stuck with what we have for now.
C. you state that Unionists are inherently bigoted . Sorry I missed that part, could you point out where I said that all Protestants were inherently bigoted.
insist on the entire Roman Catholic population identifying with kneecappings and the rest. Again, a figment of your over active imagination – must be good stuff you kids have got up there on University Avenue.
Contrary to your rantings about “one party” and Korea etc, I have no desire to see a one party state. The Unionists already tried that for 50 years and look where it got you.
You see kid, just because I adopt a position that points outs the weaknesses in Unionist positions or Reg Empty’s statements while sometimes highlighting the logic of some Sinn Fein moves does not make me a Fascist (or a Shinner for that matter). Perhaps it is you who only prefers political mandates be given to parties that agree with your world view, is that not Fascism?
Comrade Stalin,
Sorry I didn’t get back to you yesterday. I don’t disagree with your concerns about the local politicians being able to handle a P+J portfolio, but I feel it is part of the overall settlement package and nothing moves until it is devolved, so we will have to address the issue of their skill set when the time comes.
I feel SF, the governments and others are pretty much singing from the same hymm sheet on P+J. Everyone is just being very patient with the Unionists right now till they find a way to get it done, same as St Andrews.
At this point the Shinners can’t move forward without it.
With regards to the British Government, lets not forget that the DUP MPs have come in fairly useful with regards to close votes recently. Neither Labour or the Conservatives will wish to alienate the DUP. SF decide not to take up their westminister seats, oh dear…
Comrade Stalin,
to not recognise that Robbo is under pressure on this issue – is either silly or self serving.
And talking of silly – Robbo looks a a bit silly having threatened ‘serious consequences’ if the first executive meeting after the summer break did not take place – and done – jack shit.
The light chuckling between Marty and Robbo on the telly yesterday even though they are on the verge of missing the next meeting reiniforces this. LOL
Sammy:
to not recognise that Robbo is under pressure on this issue – is either silly or self serving.
What pressure is Robinson under ? Who is in a position to bring force to bear on him ?
I have no personal interest in the matter either way. If you’re talking about the Alliance thing, again, the way I see it is that either way could work out well – or badly – for the party.
And talking of silly – Robbo looks a a bit silly having threatened ‘serious consequences’ if the first executive meeting after the summer break did not take place – and done – jack shit.
I would have interpreted “serious consequences” as being the undermining of confidence in the devolved government. There can’t be any doubt that right now, this is happening.
Robinson is certainly not in a position to force Sinn Fein to stop their blockade of the executive. Nobody can do that. But that’s not what this is is about. Robinson is calculating that SF have backed themselves into a corner and that he can squeeze them. My interpretation is that he’s right, and that SF have grossly miscalculated. We’ll see who is right soon enough.
It’s not impossible for Robinson to back down at this point. I think the damage to SF has already been done.
Steve:
(a) what evidence you have that joint authority is likely
It is already the stated policy of the labour party who are still in charge and moves have already been made to put this system in place.
Where did the Labour Party state that joint authority was their policy (post 1997) and what moves have been made to put it in place ? How do you imagine this will happen in a scenario where they have a slim majority ?
Do you think its an accident that the Republic is financing new infrastructure in the north?
The RoI’s investment up here is based on a business case which calculates economic benefit flowing south of the border. It’s definitely a not an accident, but it doesn’t mean that the Irish government is about to assert control.
(b) how you think joint authority will serve the interests of nationalists, or anyone else ?
ILA Is a no brainer for the irish especially as they have one of their own
If you believe that the Irish Language Act is a major issue for people on the ground, then you have no idea about what is going on in this place.
I’m still seeing evidence of this weird republican rose-tinted glasses thing, where the Irish government imposes it’s authority and everyone runs to the border to join hands and sing songs. Your suggestion seems to be that joint authority will mean that the Sinn Fein shopping list will immediately be implemented. On the contrary, like I said, the political reality in the Republic is that the government – and indeed the electorate – are hostile to Sinn Fein.
P&J;While it wont be under the direct control of local government, It will be operated by people not beholden to the onionist ubermensch who believe themselves above the common taig,
If this is the case for the PSNI, then why did Sinn Fein agree to support that force over a year ago ? What makes you think the Garda are any better ?
Add to that that every year more and more of the biggoted former ruc administrative staff retires or dies off, the PSNI is hardly perfect but its getting better with every funeral and retirement
Er .. all the ex-RUC types were paid off very handsomely about 6 years ago as part of the Patten implementation. You might actually want to think about the possible effect of that upon the PSNI’s present inability to grapple crime.
(c) why you believe the Irish government are interested in joint authority …
Every country has national aspirations and if you think a political party from the republic is going to sell out Irishmen to onionists …
What on earth makes you think the Irish national aspiration is to impose unaccountable authority over people who are grossly divided over it, and with the real risk of a civil war ? The Irish national aspiration is written right there, in the constitution. It talks about reunification based on consent. Joint authority is not reunification. The type of joint authority that you are talking about does not involve consent.
Why should anyone – irrespective of religion – welcome the involvement of a government they can’t elect anyone to and cannot influence, and which is under no legal obligation to take their views into account ? How on earth does this arrangement benefit nationalists in the long term ? What would you do if the Irish government changed, and someone like Michael McDowell was back in charge ?
Because politics of exclusion are exactly what started and allowed the troubles to run for 30 years,
So, let me get this straight. The troubles here started when 70% of the elected representatives, nationalist and unionists, wanted to form a government, but Sinn Fein walked out ? That’s slightly different from what I remember seeing in the history books.
Let me get another thing straight. You think it’s majoritarianism if a 70% government is established in NI because Sinn Fein walked out, and you think this should be avoided because of a possible violent reaction; yet you think it’s OK to impose joint authority, which only around 40% would support (assuming total support from SF and SDLP which is not that likely), and you think the violent threat from unionists should be ignored ? Don’t you think that this lacks consistency ?
any attempt to return to them will see IRA wannabe’s take to the field in numbers unseen since Bloody Sunday.
The IRA are a force which have disbanded (more or less), got rid of all their arms, and committed themselves to peaceful means. You think that this is an organization which is in the mood for war ?
Dec, there are 1.7m of us in the North. Don’t for one second think that all of us give the same importance to policing and justice that you do. My best mate has twin daughters coming up to their final year at Primary School. P&J;is *not* uppermost in his mind at this moment.
Raven
Was a new bypass for Jordanstown uppermost in his mind? That’s being taken care of nonetheless. (I’m really not sure what point you’re making other than Government policy should follow the whims of 10-year olds – free Wiis for the elderly?) Frankly the idea that people don’t care about crime is laughable and a huge smokescreen to draw people away from the fact that the DUP by ‘sticking’ it to SF for months, have now become unstuck. This site was until recently full of Unionists crowing that about the DUP were leading SF by the nose – that crowing has somewhat subsided now. I wonder why? Instead we have nouveau moralistic posing from unlikely sources – I wonder what they’d make of the suggestion that next year’s marching season be abandoned and the millions saved on security costs go towards winter fuel relief.
Sammy – still betting on actual devolution of P&J;before 2009?
slug – No.
Luckily I had no takers.
I was tempted. Too late.
This dispute is BORING. I can’t see how it will lead to collapse, important matters will be passed by emergency procedure and ordinary business can continue. Sinn Féin successfully got the Government to drop its ability to suspend the NI Executive, requiring fresh legislation. So this stalemate could go on a long long time and result in administrative and legislative devolution, with executive devolution limited to the least cntroversial, emergency, issues. Unless Sinn Féin walk, but if they do then D’Hondt is re-triggered. They never did walk from government before in many years of councils.
One reason why Robinson is under some pressure to resolve this impasse soon, is that if he waits too long, and then resolves it is any way that looks like compromise, he leaves himself wide open to scathing TUV attacks just as the European Parliament election campaign starts to kick off. The sooner he resolves it, the longer time he will have to sell the resolution before Jim Allister starts his fight-for-life.
This dispute may be boring but it doesn’t mean Sinn Féin can’t continue this policy indefinitely.
Why? Because the British, Irish and US governments aren’t going to back down on their policy of supporting the devolution of policing and justice.
Just like unionists could wait for years playing the drawn-out decommissioning game, SF can do the same with policing and justice.
NI will muddle on as it always has and I really don’t see this damaging the SF vote (north or south) in any way shape or form. This is a no-brainer for them.
“One reason why Robinson is under some pressure to resolve this impasse soon, is that if he waits too long, and then resolves it is any way that looks like compromise, he leaves himself wide open to scathing TUV attacks just as the European Parliament election campaign starts to kick off. The sooner he resolves it, the longer time he will have to sell the resolution before Jim Allister starts his fight-for-life. ”
That’s also a reason why he will choose NOT to resolve it soon…!
slug,
That’s also a reason why he will choose NOT to resolve it soon…!
Are you foreseeing a nine-month stand-off? Will the Executive still be there if it goes on that long?
“Just like unionists could wait for years playing the drawn-out decommissioning game, SF can do the same with policing and justice. NI will muddle on as it always has and I really don’t see this damaging the SF vote (north or south) in any way shape or form. This is a no-brainer for them. ”
Could be. Effetively, that means that the number of major decisions being made is limited during this period. Obviously, however, no party will want to stop executive decisions that are of manifest benefit to their voters, but these can be passed by the emergency mechanism if necessary. So I’d expect a period of minimal change and only the most uncontroversial measures being adopted. I would also expect this could go on for a while and currently the Government has bigger fish to fry.
Horseman – depends if you think SF would walk.
CS
Where did the Labour Party state that joint authority was their policy (post 1997) and what moves have been made to put it in place ? How do you imagine this will happen in a scenario where they have a slim majority ?
plan B ring a bell at all?
The RoI’s investment up here is based on a business case which calculates economic benefit flowing south of the border. It’s definitely a not an accident, but it doesn’t mean that the Irish government is about to assert control.
I have never heard of a government spending its money in another jurisdiction except in the case of third world aid, are you saying that nIreland is a third world country?
If you believe that the Irish Language Act is a major issue for people on the ground, then you have no idea about what is going on in this place.
It is a major issue to enough of SF’s electorate that it is a major issue no matter how the onionists try and spin it
the political reality in the Republic is that the government – and indeed the electorate – are hostile to Sinn Fein.
They are however not hostile to the nationalist community of nIreland and will deal with its chosen representatives
If this is the case for the PSNI, then why did Sinn Fein agree to support that force over a year ago ? What makes you think the Garda are any better ?
Because they were promised devolved P&J;, never said the Garda were any better but as they are not openly hostile to half the community
Er .. all the ex-RUC types were paid off very handsomely about 6 years ago as part of the Patten implementation. You might actually want to think about the possible effect of that upon the PSNI’s present inability to grapple crime.
They were not, much of the command and control structure of the worst police force in europe was retained, unfortunately
What on earth makes you think the Irish national aspiration is to impose unaccountable authority over people who are grossly divided over it, and with the real risk of a civil war ? The Irish national aspiration is written right there, in the constitution. It talks about reunification based on consent. Joint authority is not reunification. The type of joint authority that you are talking about does not involve consent.
Baby steps son, baby steps
Why should anyone – irrespective of religion – welcome the involvement of a government they can’t elect anyone to and cannot influence, and which is under no legal obligation to take their views into account ?
This has always been the case for nIreland nationalists except the Republic has more of their interest in mind
So, let me get this straight. The troubles here started when 70% of the elected representatives, nationalist and unionists, wanted to form a government, but Sinn Fein walked out ?
total bollocks and you know it, the troubles started when onionists started killing arbitrary catholics for kicks, it was reinforced when peaceful civil rights demonstrators were battoned, stoned and eventually shot off the streets. It was perpetuated by the politics of exclusion
Let me get another thing straight. You think it’s majoritarianism if a 70% government is established in NI because Sinn Fein walked out
SF havent walked out, they have just used their mandate to forward their agenda. If the government was formed with out SF then it would be the politics of exclusion and against the GF & St A agreements if not plain illegal.
The IRA are a force which have disbanded (more or less), got rid of all their arms, and committed themselves to peaceful means. You think that this is an organization which is in the mood for war ?
Note the phrase IRA WANNABE’s? Their are still a few around if you havent noticed
A cost, to Sinn Féin, of executive stalemate? More of this sort of thing?
By Maggie Taggart
BBC NI education correspondent
A second Catholic grammar school has broken ranks with the Catholic authorities and said it intends to run an independent entrance exam.
St Michael’s Boys College, Enniskillen, which has more than 700 pupils, has written to Catholic primary schools in the area to explain its plan.
The decision conflicts with advice sent out only a few weeks ago.
Principal Eugene McCullough said they made the decision in the absence of any definitive and agreed plan.
However, the school has not given details of what sort of test it would run.
The principal of a local primary school confirmed that the grammar school had written with news of the plan and said the Department of Education “needs to get its act together”.
One other Catholic grammar school, Lumen Christi in Londonderry, has already said it will set independent entrance tests.
The decision by St Michael’s flies in the face of direct advice from the Catholic bishops who wrote last month to all Catholic schools telling them they do not approve of any independent entrance exams.
Steve:
plan B ring a bell at all?
Yes, it rings a bell as a vague, undefined threat made by the NI secretary who subsequently said “There is no plan B”. If you know what the details are, perhaps you’d like to fill us in ?
I have never heard of a government spending its money in another jurisdiction except in the case of third world aid, are you saying that nIreland is a third world country?
No. And I find it very hard to accept that a government has never spent money on another jurisdiction; I am sure that other countries have co-operated and co-funded roads and rail services that are in their mutual interest. Either way, this does not mean that joint authority is on the cards. Indeed, that is why unionists are supporting it.
It is a major issue to enough of SF’s electorate that it is a major issue no matter how the onionists try and spin it
What percentage of SF’s electorate regard it as a major issue ? How much Irish do you speak yourself ?
[The Irish government .. ]are however not hostile to the nationalist community of nIreland and will deal with its chosen representatives
This is the government that accepted partition, sold the “six counties” down the river, and failed to intervene in 1969. Whatever makes you think that you can trust them ? Remember that Sinn Fein historically regards the Irish government and the Irish state as illegitimate.
They were not, much of the command and control structure of the worst police force in europe was retained, unfortunately
It has the same command and control structure as any other police force. There’s constables, sergeants, inspectors, chief inspectors and so on. What’s wrong with the PSNI’s structure ? The Patten report – which Sinn Fein have accepted – have you read it ? – made no significant changes to the way the force was actually organized.
Baby steps son, baby steps
In what way is joint authority a baby step ? What you are proposing here is effectively a colonial government from Dublin. We won’t be able to elect any members to it ?
Why should anyone – irrespective of religion – welcome the involvement of a government they can’t elect anyone to and cannot influence, and which is under no legal obligation to take their views into account ?
This has always been the case for nIreland nationalists except the Republic has more of their interest in mind
What makes you think that given the history ? If the RoI has the interests of northern nationalists in mind, why didn’t they invade or provide weapons in 1969 ?
SF havent walked out, they have just used their mandate to forward their agenda.
Precisely how is the SF agenda being forwarded right now ?
If the government was formed with out SF then it would be the politics of exclusion and against the GF & St A agreements if not plain illegal.
It might be illegal right now, but through all-party talks we can make it legal. I’m sorry, but SF have no divine right to be in government, and if they are going to continue to block it then why should the remaining 75% of us suffer ?
Note the phrase IRA WANNABE’s? Their are still a few around if you havent noticed
And the UDA/UVF wannabes (and not so wannabes) who would object to your threat of joint authority. What should we do about them ? Surely you don’t believe that we should accede to one threat and ignore another ?
If the DUP do not accept the devolution of P&J;then policing and justice should be administrated jointly between the British and Irish governments. If the DUP don’t want P&J;then theyve no right to complain if the Brits share responsibility for it with Dublin.
plan B ring a bell at all?
Yes, it rings a bell as a vague, undefined threat made by the NI secretary who subsequently said “There is no plan B”. If you know what the details are, perhaps you’d like to fill us in ?
How would i know? Of course there was no fromally negotiated Plan B but I would be surprised if there wasnt an informal working model discussed between freindlies
I have never heard of a government spending its money in another jurisdiction except in the case of third world aid, are you saying that nIreland is a third world country?
No. And I find it very hard to accept that a government has never spent money on another jurisdiction; I am sure that other countries have co-operated and co-funded roads and rail services that are in their mutual interest. Either way, this does not mean that joint authority is on the cards. Indeed, that is why unionists are supporting it
I have never really heard of a major Industrial democracy providing infrastrure to its neighbours, what you are alluding to is when two partners nations negotiate how the infrastructure of the two nations meet and interact.
The only time I know of such an event occuring was in the building of the AlCan Highway during WWII when the american government agreed to pay to build a highway through Canada so that they could access Alaska by land instead of just air and sea
I really have never heard of when the smaller nation agreed to build the infrastructure of a larger nation ….. unless guns were involved
This is the government that accepted partition, sold the “six counties” down the river, and failed to intervene in 1969. Whatever makes you think that you can trust them ?
How does a nation of a few million wage war against a nation 20 times its size, with 30 times its resources? Its like asking why the Island of Grenada didnt just drive the us army into the sea when they came for there wee uninvited visit
It has the same command and control structure as any other police force. There’s constables, sergeants, inspectors, chief inspectors and so on. What’s wrong with the PSNI’s structure ? The Patten report – which Sinn Fein have accepted – have you read it ? – made no significant changes to the way the force was actually organized
Except I was refering to the personel not the actual structure which should have been quite obvious by the rest of my post. Nice attempt at a strawman though, has UMH been giving lessons?
In what way is joint authority a baby step ? What you are proposing here is effectively a colonial government from Dublin. We won’t be able to elect any members to it ?
Colonial Government from dublin and London or colonial government from London only? Like I said baby steps son baby steps
What makes you think that given the history ? If the RoI has the interests of northern nationalists in mind, why didn’t they invade or provide weapons in 1969 ?
Yes and why doesnt Canada invade the US, one of those stupid attempts at strawmen. As for the weapons, how many times have we witnessed on slugger onionists accusing Dublin of that exact thing?
Precisely how is the SF agenda being forwarded right now ?
Simple even for an onionist SF has said this far and no further, it is working as we see robbo crack a little more each day
It might be illegal right now, but through all-party talks we can make it legal. I’m sorry, but SF have no divine right to be in government, and if they are going to continue to block it then why should the remaining 75% of us suffer ?
Yeah right you think London is going to go back to being bombed to satisfy a few onionists? I think 75% is over selling it big time as the SDLP is shedding support every time they even appear to agree with onionists. Not all nationalists love SF but they don’t seem willing to return to croppie lay down either
And the UDA/UVF wannabes (and not so wannabes) who would object to your threat of joint authority. What should we do about them ? Surely you don’t believe that we should accede to one threat and ignore another ?
I never said it was a threat just a recognition of whats on the ground, already this year we have seen “dissients” gaining support because people nationalists arent happy with progress
Comrade Stalin
Steve makes some very valid points.
I would describe myself as a moderate Nationalist, I certainly don’t agree with many Sinn Fein policies and have never (nor would ever) vote for them.
I was a SDLP supporter but no way could I support them now with a “leader” like Durkan and people like McDonnell and McGrady. Frankly, Sinn Fein are no less effective as MPS and they don’t even attend!
However, for all the mistakes Durkan makes, there is no way that he would line up with the DUP, UUP + Alliance to exclude Sinn Fein. Neither would the UK, US or Irish govts have anything to do with it.
It would be perceived as excluding the vast majority of the Nationalist electorate and, whatever you may like to think, the Nationalist cause has far more support globally than NI Unionism.
There is no way the UK govt will allow themselves to be portrayed as supporting effective Unionist majority rule and, even if you don’t like it, the UK govt ultimately calls the tune here.
The attitude that Steve describes “this far and no further” is an accurate description of the vast majority of Nationalists/Catholics that I know.
As I said before, it doesn’t have to be this particular issue – this is just the final straw.
The DUP have made it clear that they are NOT interested in real partnership govt or compromise.
They clearly don’t see Nationalists as equals, they only accept them in govt because they have no choice and their agenda is to try and block anything that they perceive as benefitting Nationalists.
Well that’s just not good enough. As Steve said, the Nationalist community will never go back to the days of croppie lie down.
I don’t know why you imagine that the Unionist cause is popular in the UK/Westminster because it certainly is not. Recent events and the utterly laughable antics of Iris Robinson have added to the DUP’s already abysmal image outside of the North.
If Direct Rule has to be re-introduced then the UK, US + Irish govts will be very pissed off. The blame will, at the very least least, be put as much on the DUP for their intransigence. Don’t forget – the govts are well aware of the massive step Sinn Fein took by recognising the PSNI.
The only “pressure” on Sinn Fein that I’m aware of is coming from the DUP + UUP. Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t the UK Prime Minister recently make a speech at Stormont which clearly put the pressure on the DUP?
Therefore, I can only see your viewpoint that Robinson is under no pressure as wishful thinking.
I follow events in the North closely (from here in Australia). I also have family in the US. Obviously, with the current financial turmoil, there is little interest in the North. However, I can honestly say that any coverage I have seen basically says that the current impasse is caused because the DUP won’t discuss a timetable for devolving P&J;.
I know that, in the US, that is definitely the prevailing attititude. Even amidst the financial turmoil, the Presidential candidates will be seeking the support of the very influential Irish/American lobby which is hardly a hotbed of Unionist support.
I also think you are being fanciful in your view about Robinson’s “serious consequences”. It was clearly meant as a threat – which is just laughable as he has absolutely nothing to back it up with.
As many contributors have pointed out – what’s the worst that can happen? Answer – a collapse of the assembly. This is hardly a massive blow to Nationalists but would be to Unionists (particularly the DUP who are proving themselves more and more to be Ulster Nationalists rather than Unionists).
The DUP clearly love the trappings of power while, in all fairness, Sinn Fein appear to be quite willing to forgo them in order to preserve their principles.
Frankly, I don’t think Sinn Fein played this very well at St Andrews (a rare moment where I agree with Mark Durkan). However, more by luck than judgement, Sinn Fein find themselves in a strong position.
Despite your wishful thinking, Robinson is under much more pressure from the influential players than Sinn Fein.
That’s why he’s the one whinging on the media all the time and making empty threats.
The truth is that the DUP can either compromise or the assembly collapses. This won’t be a disaster for Nationalists but it’s a real blow to Unionists and the DUP in particular.
Billy, Steve, normally I avoid trying to argue by qualification but you guys are from Canada and Australia. While you are entitled to your opinion, obviously, it is very plain that you have not set foot in this place within the past ten years or so for any significant length of time. Things have changed, and the old rhetoric that you guys are slavishly repeating dates back to the 1970s.
Frankly, there is no fear or concern among anyone that unionists would actually be able to pull off an effort to reinstate majoritarianism. The concerns that people here are to do with the state of the economy, and, of course, policing and justice. I accept that it is possible that Sinn Fein’s electorate support the current SF abstention policy, but I think it is by no means guaranteed. I think that SF’s constituents expect the party to deliver on a range of issues, and I am not convinced that they are likely to endorse the SF strategy of deliberately not delivering on anything because they very foolishly backed themselves into a corner.
Steve :
How would i know? Of course there was no fromally negotiated Plan B but I would be surprised if there wasnt an informal working model discussed between freindlies
You’ve moved quite some distance from your original claim a couple of days ago that it was the active policy of the British government. I think we have now established that it is not.
As I said before, there is no rationality behind the point of view expressed by yourself and Billy that joint authority is some sort of solution, and would be some kind of acceptable compromise for nationalists. The only people who could support plan B are people who have not thought about it very much or, as I have said, people who have not been in this country for some time and lack visibility of the real change that has taken place in this society.
The Irish republic has changed completely in the 15 years that have passed since any major NI political party has proposed joint authority as any kind of solution or arrangement. We’ve seen people like Michael McDowell manage to find their way into government. While he is now gone, he certainly won’t be the last of a breed of politician who finds Sinn Fein repugnant and who will have no particular interest in acting as an unelected colonial governor over a troublesome region of the island he/she has no real interest in. You will find that Irish governments in the future will be seeking to build bridges with unionists. They are not going to go along with your masturbatory fantasy of a future where the Irish government deliberately sidelines unionists.
When you go for joint authority, you’re at the mercy of whatever kind of government manages to assemble itself in the Dail. The idea that this government will always automatically be sympathetic to Sinn Fein’s demands is one that is not substantiated by any recent experience. Look at the strategic picture; why would any Irish government act to support a political party like Sinn Fein which wants to take their votes and get into government in the Dail itself ?
How does a nation of a few million wage war against a nation 20 times its size, with 30 times its resources? Its like asking why the Island of Grenada didnt just drive the us army into the sea when they came for there wee uninvited visit
Now you’ve got me really confused. You’re arguing that a small nation cannot take on a bigger one and win, as if the period from 1916-1921 in Irish history never happened. If you were in touch with republicans here, you would know that many of them believe that the Irish state sold them out in 1969. Michael Collins has only recently been rehabilitated. Until very recently, he was a hate figure for many republicans who see him as the man who partitioned the country.
Except I was refering to the personel not the actual structure which should have been quite obvious by the rest of my post. Nice attempt at a strawman though, has UMH been giving lessons?
You referred to the “command and control structure” being unchanged, and now you’re saying that’s not what you meant. I’m not going to get into an argument about exactly who said what, it will quickly get very tedious. If you cannot express yourself properly then you need to fix it, not expect that the rest of us should somehow divine your meaning and then accuse us of raising strawmen when we fail to do so.
Apologies for the several long posts. I’m sure everyone reading this is bored to death by now. But i think the issues are interesting.
Colonial Government from dublin and London or colonial government from London only? Like I said baby steps son baby steps
We can elect politicians to London and we’re in a position to influence what it does. It’s far from perfect but it is not a colonial government. The joint authority you seem to be proposing would be where a friendly, grandfatherly Irish government would look down on it’s dispossed people in NI with love and concern, and fight off the dastardly unionists and their evil ways. Reality just is not like that. It might have more legs if we were able to elect people to the Dail, but the Irish political class very quickly squashed that idea (along with the FF/SDLP tieup) when it was brought up a year or so ago – which should really tell you all you need to know about the whole joint authority idea.
Yes and why doesnt Canada invade the US, one of those stupid attempts at strawmen.
It’s not a strawman at all, and the fact you think it is only shows your ignorance. My point ? That the Irish government does not care about Northern nationalists. They had a kind of joint authority in the Anglo Irish Agreement. What did they do with it ? Did you hear any nationalists praising that document ? Were any nationalists even involved or consulted about it’s content ?
As for the weapons, how many times have we witnessed on slugger onionists accusing Dublin of that exact thing?
Since I’m not a unionist, I can’t explain whatever daft stuff they come up with.
Simple even for an onionist SF has said this far and no further, it is working as we see robbo crack a little more each day
Robinson has not moved, as far as I can tell, from his original position which is that policing and justice powers can be devolved whenever there is agreement and when he believes the time is right.
I love this fantasy of yours that SF are in a position of strength and are somehow on top of things. Sinn Fein have recently actually moved their red lines significantly. For example, Gerry Kelly was presented as a possible justice minister. SF have now accepted that an SF justice minister will not happen, at least initially, and they have conceded the idea of gifting it to Alliance. You’re entirely welcome to believe that SF are in control of this situation, but as I said, the reality is different.
What SF are in fact doing is conceding to the DUP and to the Stormont civil service class many, many different things. Water charges for example. They’re also failing their constituents, like over the issue of the Hightown Road temporary bridge closure. Yet the details they choose to get macho and say “this far and no further” about are things like the Irish language act and the stadium, as well as obviously policing. Do you really think that SF’s voters like paying water charges and see this as a minor issue next to the stadium question ?
Yeah right you think London is going to go back to being bombed to satisfy a few onionists?
It won’t satisfy a “few onionists” (the childish made-up names shows the depth of your maturity), it will satisfy the requirements of all of the other political parties in NI who want to make powersharing work. That’s ~75% at the moment.
I think 75% is over selling it big time as the SDLP is shedding support every time they even appear to agree with onionists. Not all nationalists love SF but they don’t seem willing to return to croppie lay down either
But it wouldn’t be “croppie lay down” as, under the d’Hondt arrangements, the SDLP would be in government. It’s definitely not “croppie lay down” when Sinn Fein deliberately refuse to govern. This is not excluding Sinn Fein because they are fenians; it’s excluding them because they’re incompetent and ineffective, and the idea that we should not be allowed to do that when well over two thirds of us want to see power sharing work is fundamentally anti-democratic.
You are very welcome to speculate that the Sinn Fein electorate will endorse Sinn Fein’s policy in government and their failure to deliver upon anything substantive. You are welcome to believe that Sinn Fein’s voters support their policy of sitting on their hands and sulking over a delay in devolving policing powers while ignoring everything else which is going on. You are welcome to believe that the SDLP’s constructive approach, and of course their very popular social development minister, will actually cost them votes. I don’t think that is the reality, but we’ll see if/when there is another election.