How an Assembly without absolute “unionist and “nationalist” vetoes could transform the scene
I’m coming back to the discussion following on from Pete’s post and Mark Durkan’s idea of scrapping the unionist, nationalist other designations because I have something new to offer, even after 100 and more comments. Here’s a link to “The Trouble with Northern Ireland” a devastating critique of the political system by the political scientists Robin Wilson and Rick Wilford. They explain exactly how a new system without designations would work while still guaranteeing cross community support.
A new threshold of 65% of Assembly votes would be required to form an Executive and pass laws. The threshold compels each side to win at least some support on the other side. That’s the key point of this “integrative” model, the need to reach out across the divide to get things done.
If 65% was unattainable, the threshold would drop to 50% to form a “minimum winning coalition.” If any party walked out, the remaining parties would stay in office for the rest of the four year term. With a new Bill of Rights guaranteeing “fair treatment “ under the European Convention on Human Rights, a court would immediately rule ultra vires (beyond the competence of the Assembly) any law which did not have cross community support.
A new Assembly would acquire more powers to bind it together and divert attention from the past, including P&J and some tax varying powers.
A new electoral system such as the alternative vote AV plus, would force parties to win support from the other side, in order to reach a required 50% of the vote.
The paper written in 2006 (before the St Andrew’s Agreement became operative) argues that the system was fatally flawed from the start. It was bound to entrench sectarian division. The aim of forming a grand coalition was too ambitious, because of too many mutually cancelling vetoes.
Wilson and Wilford want to see dynamic developments in both the British and Irish strands, a federal UK and a confederal Ireland. Main funding would still come from London but the Assembly would be able to develop any all Ireland policy with the agreement of the Dublin Parliament.
This critique is no sneak scheme for excluding one party or another. But it was written from the viewpoint that ‘If you reward divisions and divisiveness … you increase and eventually heighten divisions and divisiveness” That message is for all parties.
I recommend a thorough read with the thought in mind that mechanisms are at least as important as motives. Mechanisms offer a forward path. Motives by definition precede mechanisms in time and hark back to the past. Any contributors still left standing please note.
Erin go bragh and the Ulster Unionist Convention of 1892
Eddie Espie from Cookstown was the name of the protestant SDLP member who left the party last year because he felt they were losing their sence of nationalism.
And then Andrew Muir left because (according to him) he felt they were too nationalist. There’s no pleasing some people!
“because he felt they were losing their sence of nationalism.”
And then Andrew Muir left because (according to him) he felt they were too nationalist. There’s no pleasing some people!
You’re both wrong. They both left the SDLP for the same reason. Self-satisfied “nationalist” catholic sectionalism rather than cross-community “republican” integrationism. Being on different sides of Lough Neagh they see different alternative parties which they hope they can work with to build that united society – Eddie sees Fianna Fail, Andrew the Alliance Party. They’re both right. Perhaps the reason for their perspective is that Eddie grew up a Prod in nationalist mid-Ulster while Andrew grew up a catholic in gently unionist Bangor West. They’ve both a personal interest in a united society.
“The Unionist Convention as it was called brought together Unionists of all classes, denominations and political leanings. It sought to answer Gladstonian Liberal and irish nationalist accusations that Unionism was the creed of a narrow landed elite clinging on to priveges and DUPing Orange workers with sectarian appeals.”
– Not much has changed since Nevin?
“Some speeches were notably concilatory towards Catholics and the use of ‘Erin go Bragh’ as one slogan on the Convention Pavilion indicated an enduring pride in Irish identity.”
– How attitudes have changed since Nevin!
Gladstonian Liberal
That reminds me of a category of people you forgot in your list of Protestant nationalists Greagoir. Lord Pirrie for example, whose enthusiasm for Home Rule gives the lie to claims that Home Rulers had no interest in, or understanding of, the industrial north.
Liberals who the (much too timid about their protestant and east-ulster-catholic nationalism) Alliance Party decends from.
Indeed Perry, thanks for that one.
Everyone feel free to add to the list. There are a lot more that I have left out.
PH Pearse himself was born to a protestant father.
Realist
The reverse is also true.SDLP,SF,UUP,AP could pass legislation without DUP support ,thereby nullify the so-called triple lock conceded to them by SF negotiators at St Andrews.We are in the situation we are in,no Irish language act,no stadium/conflict transformation centre,no P&J;powers devolved all because Martin and Gerry gave them a veto,don’t be surprised that they are now using it.
The current parties cannot be left to their own devices while they are still split along sectarian lines working on zero sum politics.
We need external parties from the South and GB to organise her to get away from this sectarain morass.
So Conservatives, Labour, LD’s, FF, FG etc. get moving and organise properly to break up the current sectarian monopolies over votes in NI.
“PH Pearse himself was born to a protestant father.”
Indeed Tir Eoghan Gael, and a Protestant English father at that! (and a fine sculptor too of religious pieces)
Harvey Bicker.
Noel lyttle was a member of the INLA who was shot dead by the SAS.
Names like George Plant, Jack White from Broughshane in County Antrim, George Gilmore from Portadown and Erskine Childers are well known protestant IRA members. The IRA in belfast had protestant commanders such as Billy Smith, Rex Thompson and John Graham. They were nicknamed ‘The Prod Squad’. Ivor Bell was another protestant IRA member who was on the Provisional IRA Army Council.
Thomas Sinclair, the Ulster Liberal Unionist appears to have been rather more liberal than Gladstone when it came to the political influence of the Catholic Church. Perhaps the latter’s desire for Home Rule was driven by a desire to get shot of Irish nationalists from Westminster.
Derek Bell, late of The Chieftains (and such gems as “Derek Bell plays with himself”) was a Protestant life-long Irish traditional musician. He went to my old school, which curiously never refers to him in its eulogies to past pupils ….
horseman ,
He (Derek Bell)
went to my old school, which curiously never refers to him in its eulogies to past pupils .
Now that’s an old school that ought to be ashamed of itself
Derek Bell was a gentleman and a scholar and music lovers all around the world not just Irish, filled concert halls to hear him play .
Greagoir o frainclin,
Thanks for the list of protestant green heretics
Any chance of compiling a similar list of catholic ‘orange’ heretics who have put their life/lives on the line to support the establishment of the Northern Ireland State ?
I never new or, indeed, accepted that traditional music was limited to the patronage of Nationalists, Horseman.
Bell House in Ballymena.
Nevin,
I never new [sic] or, indeed, accepted that traditional music was limited to the patronage of Nationalists, Horseman.
It isn’t, but a life-long membership of a clearly Irish group, promoting the ‘green’ view of Ireland around the world, tends towards some assumptions about his ‘national’ identification, don’t you think?
BW,
The ‘Trouble with Northern Ireland’ is an interesting read but it doesn’t add anything new nor can it . It’s an academic exercise in navel gazing a convoluted mechanism to force either SF or DUP into permanent minority opposition . Neither major party will go for it or can for it’s axiomatic that if one goes for it the other will immediately oppose it .
I’m afraid the “trouble with Northern Ireland ‘ is just that -Northern Ireland . In it’s present format it’s a State too divided to make political or economic sense . Like Irish ‘neutrality’ it came into existence as a ‘practical ‘ necessity due to the political and economic circumstances of the time . The world has moved on since then .
It’s hard to see why in 2008 people in NI would want to cling to an NI State but many do . It may be slightly less hard to see why in 2008 people in the Republic would want to cling to ‘neutrality ‘ but they do
.
“Thanks for the list of protestant green heretics
Any chance of compiling a similar list of catholic ‘orange’ heretics who have put their life/lives on the line to support the establishment of the Northern Ireland State ?”
Cheers Greenflag
ah sure here’s a few more….
Grattan – leader of Irish Parliament
United Irishmen -
Baganel Harvey
Roddy McCorley
Oliver Bond
Arthur O Connor
Robert Lindsay Crawford – Fenian sympathies
Robert Johnston – Fenian
Regarding compiling a list of Irish Catholic sympathizers of the Anglocentric Union, well I’ll leave to to the Unionists.
Regarding compiling a list of Irish Catholic sympathizers of the Anglocentric Union, well I’ll leave to to the Unionists.
Before the rush starts, let me suggest that IC members of the various crown forces are not listed; partly because the numbers would be unmanagable, and partly because their motives may have been more mercenary than principled.
Have there been any IC unionist MLA’s apart from John Gorman? Have there been any IC MP’s ever in modern times? Are there any IC unionist councillors? And known IC loyalists (apart from that unfortunaate incident concerning the Portadown SDLP councillors son a few years back!)?
Will sectarian head counters please cath themselves on?
Peter Sheridan of the RUC for a start
There was a catholic unit of the UVF which worked in belfast in the late 70s they were led by a man called arthur Mc Kenna i think was his name who joined the UVF to seek revenge for the murder of his brother who was killed by the IRA for anti social reasons.
Correction, Jimmy McKenna was the name of the UVF man, arthur was his brother who was shot in Ballymurphy