Meeting loyalist paramilitaries
A DUP delegation has held meetings with the leaderships of the loyalist paramilitaries. In a statement from the DUP Peter Robinson he said:“These meetings represent an opportunity to engage and discuss the process of transition from paramilitary organisations to people playing a full part in a peaceful and democratic Northern Ireland with violence and criminality being firmly a thing of the past. “
One might regard trying to stop these organisations as laudable; however, to my mind the next sentence betrays Robinson’s error:
“The response from both the UDA and the UVF/RHC has been positive and there was a commitment to an ongoing engagement.”
The idea of a positive response from the loyalist terrorists is utterly specious. They continue to hold onto their weapons and have repeatedly refused to give them up. The problem with the DUP approach exists at several levels.
Firstly there is a simple moral argument: these groups and those individuals with whom the DUP members were discussing have been involved in some of the most unpleasant terrorist murders in Northern Ireland. They are also involved in ongoing criminality and murders such as, it would seem, Thomas Devlin, possibly Lisa Dorrian etc. They continue to exert a malevolent and destructive influence on mainly working class Protestant areas: the same areas which frequently vote DUP (but very rarely for the representatives of loyalist terrorists). As such to entreat with the persecutors of their constituents seems extremely inappropriate.
The DUP will of course claim that these people (the working class Protestants) will benefit from the ending of loyalist paramilitarism. That may well be true and may be an honest position but it exposes a large flaw in their moral argument, and it becomes very difficult for the DUP to criticise the likes of John Hume indulging in discussions with SF, in the aftermath of some of the worst terrorist atrocities of the troubles. It also as Jim Allister has noted undermines the line which needs to be kept to on SF and policing and justice.
The next reason why it is a foolish plan from the DUP is the simple fact that the strategy (entreating with loyalist paramilitaries) has been shown on numerous occasions to be utterly useless: Mo Mowlam went to talk to them, all manner of people with good or bad motives have engaged with them yet as I noted above the paramilitaries continue to indulge in criminal activities: not merely the criminal activity of being in loyalist criminal organisations but also in numerous organised crimes. Discussions with these groups will inevitably centre on what will persuade them to go away. Essentially these groups require some sort of carrot or Danegeld to buy them off and then they may consider starting to do what the rest of us have always done: obey the law; the law which bans owning weapons, the law which bans being in illegal organisations, killing people, robbing people, dealing drugs, etc. etc. They have also repeatedly said that they will not give up “The people’s guns” and similar nauseatingly evil statements: nauseating especially when the “people” they claim to support and help, the working class unionist population, have always been those who most frequently suffered at the muzzles of “The People’s Guns.”
Sadly the DUP is going down the well travelled and utterly ineffective path with these people. All they will do is undermine the very thing most people want; that these people are stopped, preferably by arrest and ideally held accountable for the very large numbers of crimes they have committed. Margaret Ritchie has shown one of the few ways forward in this: stopping their money. The DUP would, I fear, be far better employed in meeting with the police and indeed the Secretary of State and encouraging a much more muscular and aggressive policing response to loyalist criminality. Loyalist paramilitaries have always been utterly useless and as I have discussed earlier it is long past time to stop appeasing them. The only meetings which the leaders of loyalist paramilitarism should be holding are: firstly with the PSNI serious crime squad, then hopefully with their lawyers and ideally many years thereafter with their probation officers.
Turgon.
Could it be that the reason that there isnt a robust police response to these organisations is that that thye have a good working relationship with many highly placed police officers?
I hope the footsoldiers of Unionism were treated far better than when their leadership dispensed with their services in the 90′s.
Will the wee sanctimonious wan in the TUV decry these terrorists on both sides of the meeting table? Don’t haud yir breath.
I just read about this on the BBC Web. I find this amazing for 2 reasons:
1
The DUP criticised the UUP for their talks with the PUP
2
Where is the UUP PR machine to point the above fact out and to highlight how it was power above principle for many DUP goals?
how can this be news to people when it is a fact that the unionist politicians and loyalist killers have met and planned for years !!
they both play in the same team and paid by the same structures.
if anyone is to dispute my fact then why have and do the unionist politicians ignore the loyalist murders, drugs and intimidation and murder threats??? why do unionist politicians ignore paid british killers who have murdered over 30 people since the loyalist ceasefire. why do the unionist politicians meet with killers who havent handed over a bullet yet demand the i.r.a. take all their clothes off for the world to see?
But incase of any confusion no unionist politician has demanded and supported and acted on ANY of the loyalist killings of their “own” community!!
I will will look with interest at the reply’s to this post as criticism of loyalism in general [on any occasions ]is usually minimal.
biff1.`
Turgon,
I appreciate you take a principled stand on these matters.
Sometimes the line between paramilitarism and constitutional politics is a thin one. We only have to remember Robbo with his Red berret thrashing around with a stick in the middle of the night in county Cavan to reiniforce that.
This is/was an abnormal society where the behaviour of the state often fell below that of the insurgents and if Robbo the Red Beret is a part of moving that along then subject to some of the warnings in your post then luck to him.
I’m sure Robbo will have briefed them on progress on Police and Justice and reminded them that their former adversaries (the Provos) will be now firmly inside the tent pissing out on them if they dont soon change their ways.
Turgon,
Good article and an interesting analysis.
There is one glaring error though. Margaret Ritchie has not stopped anyone getting any money. The CTI scheme continues to be fully paid and all staff continue to work. This may have been unreported but I am assured that this is true. More than that I understand that members of the Department of Social Development have been negotiating with staff to continue the scheme in an attempt to ward off the court case. So far from stopping the money they have offered more!!
TURGON IT IS GREAT TO HAVE SUCH HIGH STANDARDS BUT HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH THESE PEOPLE AND HOW DOES THE TUV DEAL WITH CLIFFORD PEABLES AND MARK HARBINSON IN YOUR RANKS?
This is truely a sad day for Ulster. Robinson’s pandering to loyalist terrorists simply legalises IRA/Sinn Fein’s atrocities and position in government. Does Robinson want the Unionist community to lower their standards because the majority of Irish Catholics lowered theirs by voting for Republican terrorists? Why do law abiding citizens have to suffer because a level playing field in desired?
If there’s anything good to come out of this pandering to loyalist terrorists, it will come from those in the Irish Catholic community who oppose such appeasement. Protestant concerns never get noticed unless Catholics take up the mantle, so hopefully if they voice their concern (just like we have against republican murderers in government), the decent folk in N.Ireland society can uphold the full riggers of the law.
UMH
The unionist electorate’s hands are no cleaner then SF’s voters hands. Just because you like to think so does not make it so. every vote for uup or dup is a vote for terorists as much as any vote for SF is.
DUP with a nudge and wink were the mouth pieces for loyal;ist paramilitaries
UUP were the very face of state sponsored terrorism
“[i]The unionist electorate’s hands are no cleaner then SF’s voters hands. Just because you like to think so does not make it so. every vote for uup or dup is a vote for terorists as much as any vote for SF is. “[/i]
Go wind your neck in Steve. The UUP were never associated with loyalist terror, and although the DUP was associated with Ulster resistance, there was never any associated with murder gangs.
“[i]DUP with a nudge and wink were the mouth pieces for loyal;ist paramilitaries”[/i]
Good conspiracy theory Steve. Can’t say the same about IRA/Sinn Fein.
“[i]UUP were the very face of state sponsored terrorism”[/i]
Bollocks, you republicans only try to blacken others in order to justify the campaign of murder and mayhem leased upon the good Ulster folk. Go and crawl under the hole you came from and give the citizens of N.Ireland the chance to life their lives in peace, without all this terrorist appeasment nonscence. Go take a run and jump, noone wants your kind any more.
DUP’s relationship with loyalist terrorism was on full view with that councillor in Antrim saying that the lcoal sinn fein councillor who has received death threats deserved them becuase of her “provocative” view that erecting massive bonfires with symbols preaching “kill all taigs” is wrong.
Turgon,
I note your high principle but also note your COMPLETE FAILURE to ever respond when people bring up the charming characters of Pastor Peeples and Mark Harbinson.
dub,
Mark Harbinson as far as I can see is a highly unpleasant individual. I do not know the ins and outs of his activities but I condemn utterly the things he has been alledged to be involved in.
I believe Clifford Peebles has been in prison for criminal activity: activity I condemn unreservedly. I do not know what he is up to now.
Personally I think that released criminals can and should get a second chance but I also think it is much the best if those who have been imprisoned for terrorist / political typed crime then steer well clear of politics. I would personally suggest that the likes of Pastor Peebles would now be best employed preaching the gospel: a gospel which offers forgiveness to those who repent and that he would be well advised to have little or nothing to do with active politics.
umh
It was the good folks of ulster that unleashed a campaign of terror on an unsuspecting Nationalist population in 1966
But you like to conveniantly forget that fact
N.Ireland society can uphold the full riggers of the law.
Fantastic.
Absolutely no mention or interest in loyalist decommissioning. Same old, same old from the DUP. One rule for dealing with republicans, no rules for their engagements with unionist armed gangs.
“[i]It was the good folks of ulster that unleashed a campaign of terror on an unsuspecting Nationalist population in 1966
But you like to conveniantly forget that fact”[/i]
It wasn’t The UUP or the DUP or any other law-abiding political party who murdered the first person of the troubles. GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT. You lot will try to blacken the good folks of Ulster (politicians an all) with the scum that is loyalist paramilitaries + Republican terrorism, simply because you want to bring the law abiding section of N.Ireland’s population down to your standards.
The decent people of N.Ireland do not consider loyalist paramilitaries as vote worthy and they see Republican paramilitaries in the same manner, hopefully the decent Catholics in N.Ireland can see there isn’t as big a sectarian divide as the media projects.
So, I repeat the need for Catholics to come out against this current appeasement of loyalist terror, since it takes a Catholic to get anything to happen in this place. Help us, we can’t do it ourselves.
The question has been asked how to deal with these people. The usual DUP method was to join them on mountain tops waving firearm certificates and marching with them through towns and villages with red berets on. They occasionally went over the border to seize the odd town and managed to get their then deputy leader thrown into jail!
UMH
I know the only way nIreland works is if unionism has lily white hands …… they don’t!!! They have every bit as much blood on them as nationalists have, its precisely why nIreland doesn’t work.
Nationalists accept for the blood for the most part, they aren’t proud of it but they accept it
Unionists like you are in complete denial and won’t accept that your side was as dirty as theirs
Hiding behind the thin veneer of voting records doesn’t change the reality of the situation or Comrade Stalin reaaly was the most popular leader of mother Russia
It’s NO surprise that the most telling & important contribution on this thread, Gareth McCord’s, has been TOTALLY ignored by most posters. This was a Protestant family who suffered and are still being threatened by these same loyalist killers that the DUP is meeting. They were ignored by Unionist politicians because there was NO political capital to be made by Unionists in their son’s murder and the fact that it ALSO opened a Pandora’s Box and shone a light into British State collusion. Gareth is quite correct, that is a world that not only engulfs Loyalist paramilitaries, it ALSO embraces ALL shades of Unionism. There are MOST definately Unionist politicians STILL in the pay of the British Intelligence Agencies and acting as their mouthpieces. There are also those within Unionism who are also STILL entwined in the dark world of Loyalism too and it is a place that the Unionist community, bar brave families like the McCord’s, wants to ignore. The fact that they continue to get away with their stinking hypocrisy says it ALL about the weak nature and meak compliance of well paid, psychophantic, Stormont obsessed monkey Nationalist politicians who dance to the organ grinder Robinson’s DUP tune. There are so many double standards going on in this rotten Process and this is just one of them.
Turgon, the notion of Peter Robinson following in the footsteps of John Hume is an interesting one. However, the US envoy wouldn’t have the same leverage with the loyalist paramilitaries as he/she had with the republican ones.
Lurig, you only have to look at the behaviour of President McAleese to see how the UK and Irish political establishments have availed of the services of selected members of the paramilitary mafia to control local communities.
Turgon,
Fair play to you.
“I believe Clifford Peebles has been in prison for criminal activity: activity I condemn unreservedly. I do not know what he is up to now”
Wasn’t he playing Pastor Begby in Give My Head Peace until recently?
It is true the DUP are now acting duplicitly in negotiating.
However, to try an equate the centuries old Catholic ambivalence to murdering their Protestant neighbours with DUP’s flirtation with Ulster Resistance is laughable.
Catholics do hate Protestants, support those who murder Protestants, bury Protestant murderers with honour in their churches, celebrate masses each year in honour of Protestant murderers, name their sporting arenas after Protestant murderers, vote for a gang of Protestant murderers, march in favour of Protestant murderers – need I go on…
A quick perusal of the sermons and photographs at the Funeral of Protestant murderers from Loughgall or the Hunger Strikers should be enough to suffice as primary evidence coupled with SF voting records. Did anyone mention Kingsmill, Tullyvallen, Shankill, Gillian Johnstone etc?
My relatives are from Rosslea – the last Protestant shopkeeper Douglas Deering was murdered 30 years ago by Republican Hero the late Seamus McElwaine! Ironically Douglas Deering was a Plymouth Brethren Sunday School elder who ran the local Hall and did not even vote. His business was rapidly taken over by you know who. Bosnia has nothing on the good bigotted Catholics of Rosslea!
Yes, I know not all Catholics are total bigots – we have a minority of decent folk in the Alliance or UUP but the remarkable thing is that so many paint Unionism in dark colours while behaving in a way that brings shame to any civilization in any era.
Those are the facts – spin them how you wilt but the MAN above will judge and reveal them all one day publicly no matter what the Bearded One and his wilkipedia friends at the Vatican do.
Please do not engage in mopery or ad hominen as I will simply dig up the facts and quotes which are not in dispute!
‘Please do not engage in mopery’
No need as you provided one of the best examples I have ever seen on Slinging MeTool.
Oh and for the last time (hopefully) Kingsmill had Kitson stamped all over it !
Sam you are a funny wee man, transpose the words catholic and protestant and it would be just as true
Catholics do hate Protestants??
I never really post up here, being entertained as I am by what gets written in these columns, however this got to me.
Catholics do not hate Protestants. Republican bigots hate Protestants in the same way that Loyalist bigots hate Catholics, although it must be said Loyalist hatred has always been much more overt, if no less terrible. I didn’t think that this needed to be said out loud, but there you go.
Being a Catholic does not automatically mean being in support of dissident republican terrorism. Being a Catholic doesn’t even necessarily mean being a republican at all, or even a nationalist, in the same way one would never assume that a protestant is automatically a loyalist paramilitary supporter or even a loyalist or a unionist. This kind of ignorant, badly informed, callous and wreckless tarring all with one brush is as much part of the problem as any unsurrendered bullet or gun.
As for the DUP pretending to give a shit? Risible beyond belief. It was well pointed out that they require the PIRA to stand bollock naked for all to see but don’t make any demand from the Loyalist fraternity.
“[i]Being a Catholic does not automatically mean being in support of dissident republican terrorism. Being a Catholic doesn’t even necessarily mean being a republican at all, or even a nationalist, in the same way one would never assume that a protestant is automatically a loyalist paramilitary supporter or even a loyalist or a unionist. This kind of ignorant, badly informed, callous and wreckless tarring all with one brush is as much part of the problem as any unsurrendered bullet or gun. “[/i]
Very true Stephen, but the fact remains the majority of Catholic in N.Ireland vote for Republican terrorists.
UMH
Its also true that the majority of protestants vote for unionist terrorists
Very true Stephen, but the fact remains the majority of Catholic in N.Ireland vote for Republican terrorists
And seemingly the majority or Protestants vote for intransigent bigots. I agree with what you are saying but we do have a stalemate of sorts in Stormont. The point scoring could go on for ever, whataboutery I think I have heard it called, but it gets nothing done. Here is the bottom line. What happens if the PIRA army council does disband? Would it be enough for the DUP or would they yet again put up more obstacles? And when will they start to be as uncompromisingly demanding of disarmamnet from the Loyalists? The difference in demands from dissident republican organisations almost makes one consider the possibility that there is support for Loyalist terrorism. We see them trip over each other to condemn Republican acts, but they remain quiet on the subject of loyalist acts until asked, and then the condemnations do seem somewhat reticent, comparitively speaking.
I believe that the DUP were right to take whatever action they felt would ensure that there are no more victims of these groups,they should have done it years ago.
I wonder how many young and women joined these organisations after listening to inflammitory speeches by so called respectable politicians.
Danny
It would be my guess that they mostly joined after inflamatory speaches by unionist politicians and vile acts of state sponsored terrorism
Its a known fact that the IRA was defunct for all intents and purposes until Bloody Sunday
Stephen
We do not have a moral equivalence here.
Protestants have never voted in large numbers for Catholic killers, attended their funerals, marched on the streets for them, and name me the last Protestant minister who openly compared a UVF/UFF terrorist to a saint in heaven, numbered with angels etc as their Roman Priest counterparts have done on myriad occasions.
Could you also explain why Bobby Sands died clutching the Rosary Beads sent over by the Pope especially for their acclaimed son of the Church whose sole accomplishment was to murder Protestants and starve himself to death by suicide?
I am not surprised that catholics here are desperately trying to distance themselves from the facts of their “holy faith” and fellow coreligionists. However, any objective observer can discern that the most sectarian, bloodthirsty group consistently have been the majority of the RC community.
There were open unionist terrorists standing in elections called the UDP and PUP. They lost their deposits in most places. So stop repeating your rather lame and puerile propaganda.
FACTS are FACTS
“DUP’s flirtation with Ulster Resistance”
Sorry Sam you forgot about their flirtation with Billy Wright.
And wasn’t it the late David Ervine (then UVF) who was so familiar with the colour of the wallpaper in their homes.
As Peter himself once said , if you lie down with dogs……..
[i]The point scoring could go on for ever, whataboutery I think I have heard it called, but it gets nothing done.”[/i]
Stephen you can’t compare Protestants voting for the DUP in the same bracket as Catholics voting for IRA/Sinn Fein. It is not whataboutery to compare the two. If the majority of Protestants voted for the UDA/UDP or the UVF/PUP then you can compare like with like.
We do not have a moral equivalence here.
Protestants have never voted in large numbers for Catholic killers, attended their funerals, marched on the streets for them,
This utter trype
You can tell yourself that at night so you can sleep but when the dawn comes open your eyes and admit that unionism was formed on the basis of terrorism and has always maintained a terrorist arm. Usually in uniform but terrorists none the less
“Its a known fact that the IRA was defunct for all intents and purposes until Bloody Sunday”[/i]
Why were they there on Bloody Sunday if they were defunct?
“It would be my guess that they mostly joined after inflamatory speaches by unionist politicians and vile acts of state sponsored terrorism ”
So there was no IRA until Unionist politicians spoke out against them? It doesn’t add up Steve!
“However, any objective observer can discern that the most sectarian, bloodthirsty group consistently have been the majority of the RC community.”
The thing is Sam, we Catholics, having lived on this island long before your ancestors fled Scotland under threat of hanging(FACTs are FACTS,) have longer memories.
When you say “sectarian” we think DUP. “Bloodthirsty” brings to mind Cromwell, the Shankill Butchers (UVF), LVF, Greysteel (UDA).
“[i]unionism was formed on the basis of terrorism and has always maintained a terrorist arm.”[/i]
You need to clarify if you’re talking about Irish Unionism (which was supported by many United Irishmen after 1801) or Ulster Unionism after the creation of N.Ireland.
If it’s the latter, to which I would hazard a guess, please show proof that Ulster Unionism ‘was formed on the basis of terrorism and has always maintained a terrorist arm’?
[remember terrorist arm does not equate to police force] Just incase you got the two mixed up
“[i]The thing is Sam, we Catholics, having lived on this island long before your ancestors fled Scotland under threat of hanging(FACTs are FACTS,) have longer memories.”[/i]
You weren’t Roman Catholics until the Pope gave the island to King Henry II (12th century) on condition that he suppressed the ancient Celtic (Culdee) Church.
“You weren’t Roman Catholics until the Pope gave the island to King Henry II (12th century)”
Yes, the island, not just part of it. Welcome to your Roman Catholic Ulster Homeland.
You need to clarify if you’re talking about Irish Unionism (which was supported by many United Irishmen after 1801) or Ulster Unionism after the creation of N.Ireland.
nIreland or ulster unionism (bullshit term as its not ulster) was formed on the basis of armed threat against the duly constituted government by the protestant population, the very definition of terrorism as you spout it.
please show proof that Ulster Unionism ‘was formed on the basis of terrorism(done and I mean done baby) and has always maintained a terrorist arm’?
[remember terrorist arm does not equate to police force] Just incase you got the two mixed up
When you use the police to terrorize the population then they are terrorists uniform or not. ruc, bspecials and any of the other alphabet killers of protestant infamy are terrorists and there is simply no justification for calling them anything else. the ruc was the moral equivalent of the uda
Why were they there on Bloody Sunday if they were defunct?
They weren’t it was a complete attempt at lying to cover the government terrorists asses, no one has ever produced a single viable piece of evidence about the outlandish claims of the killers of students and children
So there was no IRA until Unionist politicians spoke out against them? It doesn’t add up Steve!
Nice try at obfuscation either you are will fully dumb or just naturally
“The thing is Sam, we Catholics, having lived on this island long before your ancestors fled Scotland under threat of hanging(FACTs are FACTS,) have longer memories”
… and genetics are genetics and no your ancestors werent here first. Its all a lot more complex than that and there is no real genetic difference between us. It’s all a cultural difference and about who we choose to believe we are rather than than where we really come from.
“My Da’s family wuz here longer than ur Da’s” just doesnt work.
“the Pope gave the island to King Henry II ”
So, as the Pope is infallible, did he ever formally agree that England should give part of it up?
Did he make a mistake in asking the English to impose the ‘one true church’ on its inhabitants, with all that followed?
Was it all OK up to the point when Henry VIII embraced Protestantism (as well as few other things)?
This history malarkey is challenging and complex once you get into it, isn’t it.
“Its a known fact that the IRA was defunct for all intents and purposes until Bloody Sunday”
Bullshit. Almost one hundred people had been killed by the PIRA between 1970 and 1972.
However, any objective observer can discern that the most sectarian, bloodthirsty group consistently have been the majority of the RC community.
Complete and utter bigoted bilge. Which doesn’t address my point either. When will the DUP be as vitriolic in their demands for Loyalist paramilitary arms as the are with dissident republican arms, or is it simply the case that loyalist terrorism is accepted?
‘You weren’t Roman Catholics until the Pope gave the island to King Henry II (12th century)’
“[i]Yes, the island, not just part of it. Welcome to your Roman Catholic Ulster Homeland.”[/i]
LOL you dip-stick, Veritas. It was the pope who gave your island over to those who you would class as your enemies for 800 years, yet you failed to see your spiritual masters (Rome) as having anything to do with your downfall.
Bullshit. Almost one hundred people had been killed by the PIRA between 1970 and 1972.
Posted by Same old on Sep 08, 2008 @ 05:52 PM
Then tell me why are the IRA really the PIRA
“county Cavan”
Don’t you people know anything about the goegraphy of Ulster?