Language, language
I don‘t want to major on the Irish Language Act right now – we’ll save up for it later. But just taking up the point from Henry McDonald’s Observer piece.
Quote:
“The government won’t bring it in via Westminster because the danger is they would be legally bound to recognise other languages such as Urdu, Hindi, Arabic and so on as being of equal legal status to English. Which would cost millions and millions to implement in a time of depleted public finances “
The government seems to have no such obligation anyway under the European Charter for Regional and Minorities languages which they ratified in March 2001 specifically to apply to NI.
According to the Wikipedia article on the Charter it only applies to languages traditionally used by the nationals of the State Parties (thus excluding languages used by recent immigrants from other states). That would seem to nail the Downing St reply as tendentious. I suppose it depends on what is meant by “recent” immigrants. Many Urdu and Arabic speakers, close relatives of those already settled, arrived here recently although immigration from Arabic-speaking countries and Pakistan dates back to the fifties – and those minorities continues to enjoy extensive language support.
Furthermore this casual briefing line can hardly be regarded as a considered reply. No doubt Mr Adams, who will feel rebuffed by the report, is on the case already.
Even if the government as such doesn’t wish to be “legally bound to recognise foreign languages as being of equal legal status to English,” whatever that entails anyway, lots of other public bodies in England especially councils “recognise” them in droves. The merest acquaintance with foreign language policy in England shows what a tiddler the NI language issue is by comparison – divesting it for a moment of its political resonance.
Browse in the National Centre for Languages website and you’ll be knocked sideways, unless you’re familiar with the facts already. 300 languages are spoken in London. Councils provide translation services for many of them and specialised English teaching for all. Of course Irish as an – I’ll use the word – optional – language is conceptually a different issue. But if you think rights and you think diversity and you think yes, costs; if you cool down the politics and play up cultural goodwill , you’ll grope your way towards a solution.
cynic,
Nonsense, but I am sure Dewi can correct you.
“do you know that there is no definitive Welsh dictionary and grammar so there isnt even agreement on the language itself.”
Now that is just silly. But I am sure a Welshman can ste you straight.
I fully support the rights of Welsh people to demand and recieve complete equality for their culure in Wales, and the vast majority of Welsh people agree with me.
Ggn
O Brien’s relationship with SF is well known but all O’ Brien did was provide a translation, point it up and let people decide.
And down the years I have read many copies of An Phoblacht if only for the novelty value and the sense of nostalgia in looking back at what could be 1970′s left wing student politics. Never mind, perhaps one day it will be fashionable again, even in SF!!
But you do not seem to be able to take any critiicism of the concept of an Irish Language Act or accept that anyone else may have contrary view. I have made my views clear. By all means offer support for Irish and IME and if it grows good luck to it. But dont try to make it compulsory or mandatory.
So please do calm down. I am afraid you will need resilience for the next 30 years of struggle.
“Irish is a language with literature, grammar and life beyond its enthusiasts”
…great…and good luck to them ….so has fly fishing, rap music, fox hunting and gambling….but I don’t want to be forced to subsidise those either.
I am struggling to find the comparison between ANY of the above mentioned pasttimes and hobbies, and the Irish language….
‘Predictable, desperate nonsense. Even if we accepted the 20,000 I assume that ‘figure’ includes all the kids forced to study it.’
How have these children been ‘forced’ to do anything? Unless of course, you consider that your own parents ‘forced’ you to attend an English medium school? Parents choose what they think is best for their children. In the case of Irish medium education, the driving factor for the vast majority of parents, is that their children will study the SAME curriculum as other, English medium schools, but do so in their native language, thus increasing the skills of the child (bilingualism), and giving the same child a sense of identity and cultural pride. It would be a tiny, tiny minority, who would even consider sending their child to these schools for any other reason, as happens with all schools – proximity, good grades, better facilties etc.
“But dont try to make it compulsory or mandatory. ”
No-one is. That is just a fantasy made up to scare unionists.
“But you do not seem to be able to take any critiicism of the concept of an Irish Language Act or accept that anyone else may have contrary view.”
When Unionist politicans start to debate the issue, rationally, without hatred and vitriol, without telling lies to scare people and without being as deliberately offensive as possible then they may find people willing to listen to valid CONCERNS.
But there is a grat difference between concerns and pure sectarian vitriol, which makes up the bulk of what I have heard from unionists on the Irish language issue.
Unionists blanket oppostion to every school, sign, word, program has really put them outside the debate up till now in my view.
“But dont try to make it compulsory or mandatory. “
No-one is. That is just a fantasy made up to scare unionists.
Should this not be – That is just a fantasy made up BY unionists to scare other unionists?
Seimi,
But of course. And shame on them.
“Oh and by the way, do you know that there is no definitive Welsh dictionary and grammar so there isnt even agreement on the language itself.”
Pretty definitive but always evolving
“There are at least two distinct and competing dialects.”
More than two – but differences less than beween Southern England english and Tyneside for instance.
“There are at least two distinct and competing dialects.”
And? There are four Provincial dialects of Irish in Ireland, each slightly different from the other, but still the same language. Even with a standardised version supposedly in place, the four Provinces still hold on dearly to their own dialect. Even within these Provincial dialects, there are regional differences, e.g. Mount Errigal, depending on which part of Donegal you are standing to look at it, is either Masculine or Feminine. And they are both right!
Are you suggesting that, were you to tell one Welshman that his dialect wasn’t ‘true’ Welsh, because his dialect differed from the one on the other side of the valley (apologies for the stereotyping
)), that his language had no value? If this is the case, then god help English, because it has more dialects than any of the other indigenous languages of these islands.
Dewi,
Thanks for the info.
I wonder if you could ask a question, obviously there is much controvery and debate in Wales over language but does it occur in a similar knowledge vacuum to here or is the debate more informed?
That of course was FAO cynic, not Dewi.
As a working class unionist I would like to see the Irish language thrive and hear it spoken on a day to day basis.
At one time I had to study the language for 6 years to Leaving Cert standard and at times enjoyed some of the study particularly poetry.
I had a reasonable fluency to write and could understand a lot but found it difficult to speak.
I recall the social scene in Belfast 1963/68 when the two communities made an attempt to come together.
Unionist teenagers visited folk clubs and I know of several girls enlisted in Irish speaking classes and whilst I played rugby with a passion some of my mates where keen to try Gaelic football.
All that came to an end in1968 and the communities are now further apart than ever.
There will be an ILA but I will be opposed to many provisions sought by SF.
I believe they are trying to build a State within a State and the language is to be used as an economic tool to defeat the British identity in NI.and to give Irish speakers a great advantage from an economic pov.
For example they will ask for social housing to be available only to Irish speakers and will want their own exclusive transport system.
All Irish speakers will be guaranteed a job in Civil Service banks Building Societies Insurance Companies etc and any firm which has contact with the public which really means all of them.
Lawyers will be Bi-lingual to deal with the demands of Republicans and the resources required will be huge.
While all this s going on my community (unionist working class) will be at the bottom of the pile looking for some crumbs of comfort.
There is always a silver lining.
Great divisions will be created and these can only copper fasten the Union.
“obviously there is much controvery and debate in Wales over language but does it occur in a similar knowledge vacuum to here or is the debate more informed?”
Strangely enough we’ve been having a fair bit of fairly vacuous vitriolic correspondence in the papers over the last months. Our politicians, however, seem to have similar objectives. Their debates are mostly tactical. (Even the tories had simultaneous translation at their last conference)
One worrying point is that of the low take up of Welsh language forms and services. It is true that this is below the % of Welsh speakers amonsgt the population. One of the reasons is that translated legalease is often more confusing than the original. Another is that people having grown up dealing with officialdom in English have tended to keep to that habit. a third reason is that Welsh speakers are bilingual and choose to use whichever language they feel like. We need to work on this.
On the positive side our new kids TV channel is v. cool and my romance with the Welsh speaking Tescos self service machine is going well…..(Seriously getting Welsh heard is important – bilingual Railway Station and Millenium Stadium announcements make a big impression on monoglots.)
Ulsterfan,
I know I shouldnt say this but I feel very sorry for you.
You are utterly deluded. Someday I hope you learn to question what your politicans tell you. You are being lied to.
“will want their own exclusive transport system.”
I think even the majority of unionists would consider that for example to be quite a crazy statement.
ggn
Just wait and see.
They will be more exclusive than the Plymouth Brethern.
‘I believe they are trying to build a State within a State and the language is to be used as an economic tool to defeat the British identity in NI.and to give Irish speakers a great advantage from an economic pov.
For example they will ask for social housing to be available only to Irish speakers and will want their own exclusive transport system.
All Irish speakers will be guaranteed a job in Civil Service banks Building Societies Insurance Companies etc and any firm which has contact with the public which really means all of them.
Lawyers will be Bi-lingual to deal with the demands of Republicans and the resources required will be huge.
While all this s going on my community (unionist working class) will be at the bottom of the pile looking for some crumbs of comfort.’
Sorry ulsterfan, but this is, from start to finish, completely untrue. An ILA will not make the speaking of the language mandatory, nor will it exclude non-speakers from employment. The Irish speakers already exist in most, if not all the areas you mentioned – it would only be a matter of changing their job descriptions slightly. In those areas where there are no speakers, moving from one department to another surely wouldn’t be that problematic, would it?
Rather than defeating a British identity, surely giving rights to Gaelic only strengthens an Irish identity, which is completely different.
I can name 4 lawyers in West Belfast alone who are fluent Irish speakers, though to be honest, your assertion that they will have to be bilingual to ‘deal with the demands of Republicans’ is quite frankly ridiculous and insulting. The language has nothing to do with politics. It is being used by all sides as a political football, which is something I find disgusting. But your comment shows you in a poor light.
‘While all this s going on my community (unionist working class) will be at the bottom of the pile looking for some crumbs of comfort.’
How will the enactment of a language act be detrimental to people in working class unionist, or indeed, nationalist, areas? Surely that is to do with economic regeneration, rather than language rights?
‘For example they will ask for social housing to be available only to Irish speakers and will want their own exclusive transport system.’
You really must show me where this has been cited. If this is true, then I will oppose the Act too, because it is divisive, sectarian, and utterly ridiculous. But you can’t. Because it hasn’t been cited. Anywhere. So I won’t oppose the Act.
Seimi
Look at the provision of housing in Galway supported by SF—only Irish speakers need apply and each couple subjected to a test of ability to speak.
Going back to an earlier point on An Phoblacht, the different US and Irish editions relate to stories, mostly apocryphal, about two different English language versions and have nothing to do with the Irish language.
0/10
‘Look at the provision of housing in Galway supported by SF—only Irish speakers need apply and each couple subjected to a test of ability to speak.’
Would this be in a designated Gaeltacht area ulsterfan? Where the first language is Gaelic? An area recognised by the government many years ago? What’s the problem with that?
Seimi
You say the language has nothing to do with politics and then say everyone is using it as a football. I presume in everyone you include SF.
If so you have eloquently made my point for me.
You are honest to say this is disgusting.
Just out of curiosity ulsterfan, what other parties support this? Most? All?
Is it outside the Gaeltacht area? And if so, is it to try and establish an urban Gaeltacht? This would be a great idea, as many non-speakers in the South especially, regard the language as a rural one, much as Ulster Scots is regarded here. Bringing it in to the inner city would be a great way of breaking down these perceptions and ‘normalising’ the language.
Oh yeah. Galway, last time I checked, wasn’t one of the six counties of ‘Northern Ireland.’
‘You say the language has nothing to do with politics and then say everyone is using it as a football. I presume in everyone you include SF.
If so you have eloquently made my point for me.
You are honest to say this is disgusting.’
I do of course include SF in this. In fact, I hold them, above all other parties, to be most at fault here. Whilst I don’t understand the unionist fear of Gaelic, at least they stick to the same points about it. I have yet to agree with a single one of those points, but at least they stick to them. I do think that SF, as the biggest nationalist party, should be smart enough to see that using it as a political football does Gaelic no good.
As for eloquently making your point – which point? The Gaelic-only transport system? The housing? The bilingual lawyers dealing with Republican demands? The Irish-only banking, civil service or insurance service? Sorry, mo chara, I make none of these points. You made them. Try and stand over them, with proof, lest you be made to look a tad foolish.
I think the concerns of Ulster Fan while mistaken are genuine. I don’t want to see an Irish language pork barrel any more than I resent the Unionist pork barrel which exists already. {And I do realise that the unionist pork barrel is reserved for a certain class – ie the chattering class rather than the working class].
I believe they are trying to build a State within a State and the language is to be used as an economic tool to defeat the British identity in NI.and to give Irish speakers a great advantage from an economic pov.
SF can speak for themselves but you should realise, for instance, that when SF people became mayors, they didn’t seek, for instance, to remove the Union Flag from the Lord Mayor’s Parlour in Belfast though they did bring in the Tricolour. That tells me that they want Irish and British culture to thrive in NI.
I don’t think promoting the Irish language can be viewed as a way of defeating the British identity especially, with its links to Scots Gaelic, as the Irish language is as much a valid part of British identity as it is of Irish identity.
For example they will ask for social housing to be available only to Irish speakers and will want their own exclusive transport system.
I think you’re being fed great big whoppers – there’s no question of social housing being sought for Irish speakers’ exclusively. Though I do think that people will want to establish Irish language communities such as the one on Shaws Road in Belfast, where I lived for a spell, but they will be buying their houses out of their own resources. The exclusive transport system for Irish speakers is a complete fantasy.
All Irish speakers will be guaranteed a job in Civil Service banks Building Societies Insurance Companies etc and any firm which has contact with the public which really means all of them.
Again this a complete fantasy. If one or two suitably qualified people, plus the additional qualification of competence with Irish, are recruited in some public companies, such as NIE, BT etc, then that will be the size of it. An Irish language Act south of the border hasn’t meant that everybody working in public bodies must have Irish – by right they should seeing as most of them have spent 13 years learning Irish in the education system and incompetence after that kind of exposure talks about a failure of education at a more fundamental level. Requiring public companies to deal with enquiries from the Irish speaking community as Gaeilge is not a question of making sure only Irish speakers get jobs. It will provide some employment for Irish speakers no doubt but that will be for specific tasks.
Lawyers will be Bi-lingual to deal with the demands of Republicans and the resources required will be huge.
Lawyers who want to specialise in representing clients with Irish should be given the opportunity of learning Irish while they’re in law school. This doesn’t mean that they all have to learn Irish – it just means that if someone with Irish requires legal services as Gaeilge, then they should be facilitated. Lawyers with Irish already exist – now what we need is a court service which is willing to accomodate Irish. If it means providing translaters, so be it. However judges could learn Irish – or, heaven forfend, a judge with Irish could be recruited from south of the border to sit in Irish language cases in the north.
There is always a silver lining.
Great divisions will be created and these can only copper fasten the Union.
That’s the real tragedy. That you think that is a good thing that the Irish language Act will create divisions. The misinformation which you’ve been peddled is an indication of the lies and propoganda being spread by misguided and misguiding unionist politiicans about the Irish language. Enacting the Irish language could cement the Union, but not in the way you envisage. If unionists make clear they value the Irish language as part of their heritage also, it could open up a new future for NI in terms of carving out an identity which is both British and Irish, an identity in which neither of those terms is mutually exclusive.
If there is no Irish Language Act it will only heighten the sense among Irish speakers and nationalists – not necessarily the same thing – that they are being excluded from full participation in a society in which they are fully paid up members, with the P60s to prove it.
If this is the comfort blanket being offered by unionist politicians to the unionist working class, it tells of a severe poverty of thinking among unionist leaders….
Despite the revival of the native ancient language of this island by the 18/19th century Presbyterian/Protestant scholars, it was abandoned by the subsequent unionist generations who distanced themselves from an Irish identity. Prefering to opt for a British/Anglocentric identity. Naturally Irish Nationalism would adopt the native tongue and Irish Nationalism had many a Gaelic speaker who was Protestant too.
As I always say, gas that Unionists love to class Ireland as part of the ‘British Isles’ yet they deny one of the oldest languages within the ‘British Isles’ that’s still alive today.
Seimi
“How have these children been ‘forced’ to do anything? ”
It’s on their curriculum they have to study it. You are playing semantics and missing the big point – these figures bolster the numbers who “use Irish daily”. Even then 20000 is a very small number – just over 1% of the population.
And as Dewi says in Wales
“One worrying point is that of the low take up of Welsh language forms and services. It is true that this is below the % of Welsh speakers amonsgt the population. …….. We need to work on this.”
I agree but not for the same reasons. Even Welsh speakers dont want these ‘services’. They are for zealots who are happy to see millions spent providing translations that no-one wants. Of course, this does provide employment for more zealots…but at the cost of whose Home Help, whose cancer drugs? Congratulations on your Welsh Speaking Tesco self check out – but do all the Tesco customers realise that they are paying for this? Millions is simply being wasted.
Ggn
” a similar knowledge vacuum ”
Were you trying to be condescending or just suggesting that anyone who opposes an ILA is too thick or ill-informed to understand?
As always happens on Slugger, Irish language threads are littered with ignorant and bigoted remarks about Irish Gaelic and its speakers.
The Irish-speaking community will continue to grow and thrive throughout our island, with or without an Acht in the north.
And for all those who oppose Irish signage etc for financial reasons (eventhough Irish speakers also pay taxes), would you be happy if we payed for our own signs?
CoL
I think you are wrong to suggest a handful of people will be required to deal with Irish speakers in commerce and finance.
Thousands are needed and this will create an imbalance in the work force to the advantage of nationalists /Republicans and the world will go mad if someone suggests there should be an equal number of Ulster Scots speakers.
Let us put sufficient funds into education at primary level and indeed into secondary schools and teach in a way that is interesting to secure the language as a living expression of ones identity and culture
Instead of preaching about rights lets talk of respect and love of language.
All the legislation in the south has not guaranteed the survival of Irish.
The disadvantages of an ILA might outweigh any good it brings.
R G Cuan
“The Irish-speaking community will continue to grow and thrive throughout our island, with or without an Acht in the north.”
Sorry … so you don’t need one then? But seriously I have no problem with positively supporting the growth in the language on an opt-in basis without all the paraphernalia of ‘special status’ and compulsion.
“And for all those who oppose Irish signage etc for financial reasons (eventhough Irish speakers also pay taxes), would you be happy if we payed for our own signs?”
The point is that there are so few of you (less than 2%) that the cost is disproportionate. But by all means, feel free. MAny already do – or in some areas are forced to have their signs in irish wether they want them or not.
“or in some areas are forced to have their signs in irish wether they want them or not.”
Are you suggesting that there are monolingual sings in the North? Where?
I am not suggesting that anyone who opposes an ILA is ignorant but I am suggesting that ignorance characterises unionist arguements at this time. The future may well see unionists developing an appreciation of the issues.
‘Thousands are needed and this will create an imbalance in the work force to the advantage of nationalists /Republicans and the world will go mad if someone suggests there should be an equal number of Ulster Scots speakers.’
First of all, where are you getting these figures from? Thousands? Really? Prove it.
Secondly, as far as Ulster Scots is concerned, why should there be an equal amount (thousands!!!) to cater for Ulster Scots? Have they asked? How many children attend US schools? Show me even ONE Ulster Scots dictionary. You were very quick to point out the 2 dialects in Welsh, however there is NO consensus on US terms or spelling. US experts themselves admit that it is a spoken, rural, agricultural language, while language experts tend towards it being a dialect of a dialect of Scots. I agree with supporting the culture of those Scots Irish (Ye’d think they never travelled past the border – which didn’t exist!) whose descendants still reside here, just as I would support the thousands of Irish descendants living in Scotland, should they wish to celebrate their Irish culture there. I digress. How can you provide translations, forms, documentation, for a language which can’t presently be written down in such a way that all its speakers and supporters could understand and agree upon.
‘Let us put sufficient funds into education at primary level and indeed into secondary schools and teach in a way that is interesting to secure the language as a living expression of ones identity and culture’
This I agree with 100% for English medium schools. However I think it is vital that IM schools continue to provide the curriculum in the native language. As a past pupil of the Bunscoil on Shaws Road, I will be forever grateful for the experience, as are my 2 children.
‘Instead of preaching about rights lets talk of respect and love of language.’
If only we could all do this cynic. But fair play to you for being one of the first. Let’s see how many other working class unionists on Slugger will join you in this.
Irish is on their curriculum – so they have to study it.
Indeed they do, as they have to study maths and English. It’s a subject which is required to ensure they get an education and despite what you might think there’s more to education than preparing for examination. It’s also about getting a sense of what society is about and whether you accept it or not, learning Irish gives people an extra dimension in the Irish education system. It’s as valid or more valid than learning history or geography or economics. And on top of that, those who learn Irish perform, especially from a young age, are better able to learn other languages, including English.
When Cynic says, in reference to the Welsh language check outs at Tesco: “Millions is being wasted”, I just think of the millions that ARE being wasted on teaching people like him English when they obviously haven’t mastered a basic grammatical rule regarding singular pronouns and verbs. And he has the cheek and the brass neck to say that millions are being wasted on Welsh and Irish – no Welsh or Irish speaker would write English as badly as he does. Some of the arguments against the promotion of Irish are arguments for ignorance. It reminds me of 1984 when the Orwellian idea was to trim the language of words of discontent and revolution to bring about an entirely new language. Maybe that’s why people are so keen to see the demise of Irish…
“Congratulations on your Welsh Speaking Tesco self check out – but do all the Tesco customers realise that they are paying for this?”
As am I cynic – at last I get services in my own language in my own country – about time.
seimi
I think you are getting me mixed up with someone else as I have not made any comment on Welsh dialects.
I still think my figures are a good guess at the number of people employed for the sole purpose of conducting business through the Irish language.
I can envisage legislation making it compulsory for Medium/large companies employing people for this reason otherwise those who are deprived of this service will say their rights have not been recognised and perhaps sue.
Companies will have to train existing staff or employ others.
so you don’t need one then?
It’s not essential – we’ve survived alright this far – it just it would make life that bit more normal for Irish speakers here. Rights and recognition for indigenous languages is internationally acknolwedged as best practice – why should NI be any different?
Yes, there are only 20,000 of us who speak Irish on a daily basis in the north but there are many more fluent speakers who do not have the opportunity to speak Irish everyday, and many more on top of that who support the language.
As for your comment about people having signage ‘forced’ upon them, I think you are very much mistaken.
Concubhar
Its usually a sign of losing the argument when you have to play the man and not deal with the ideas.
Read the post – don’t just impose your own prejudices on a phrase. The point is that regular irish speakers in NI amount to less than 2% of the population. Yes, 2%. I know you have difficulty with that but let me say it again – less than 2% – less than 1 person in 50.
Now if you or anyone else wants to learn irish, great. Let’s support that. You want IME then again, within reason, let’s support that too where there is a real demand.
What we should not do is impose the language on the state and impose the costs of all that on the wider community. I know all the arguments about having the right to be addressed in your own language etc. In critical areas like the courts etc there are already provisions that provide for this but for people who are also native English speakers but who want to elect to be dealt with in irish or Welsh or ulster Scots then, sorry, but the wider community should not fund it.
In my view (and yes I have a right to a view as well) its not worth it and there are higher priorities for the money.
cynic and ulsterfan,as people who hail from a community whose more fanatical elements have cost the British and Irish taxpayer multi millions through the years with their ‘cultural protests’, I think it ill behoves either of you to continually harp on what this act MIGHT cost.And if the Acht contained any element of compulsion, I would oppose it myself.But the people who may oppose it most are the British whose forefathers spent so much effort and spilled so much blood to wipe Irish out in the first place.
Nobody’s disputing your right to a view – but I do have a right to point out that I believe your view is based on ignorance and is lacking in credibility.
Less than 2% you say. Fine – but it’s growing as the Census and NI Life and Times Survey results show. As the number of people sending their children to IME shows or the audiences for Irish programmes on TV show.
And the facts – and all academic research – regarding Irish medium education also confirm that those who attend such schools have better command of English and Irish than those who attend monoglot English schools.
Pancho’s Horse
cynic can speak for himself but for my part I do not accept any responsibility for actions carried out by my Forefathers. I have enough problems getting on with life without worrying about my grandfather or his father.
Any wrongs committed by them is not my responsibility nor would I suggest you have something to answer for,for any crimes committed by your ancestors if indeed they were involved in any wrongdoing.
seimi
I think you are getting me mixed up with someone else as I have not made any comment on Welsh dialects.
I still think my figures are a good guess at the number of people employed for the sole purpose of conducting business through the Irish language.
I can envisage legislation making it compulsory for Medium/large companies employing people for this reason otherwise those who are deprived of this service will say their rights have not been recognised and perhaps sue.
Companies will have to train existing staff or employ others.
Posted by ulsterfan.
Apologies. I think it may have been cynic I meant to address that to.
However.
Saying you ‘think’ that ‘your’ figures are a ‘good guess’, and that you ‘envisage’ what companies may or may not have to do, isn’t really a strong case to argue, is it? Where are your facts? The figures put forward by the last DCAL minister against the Act, were based on the average figures for the Republic, Wales AND Scotland, and also chose to totally ignore the fact that many businesses, companies, government departments etc, already employ Irish speakers, therefore your claim that they would have to employ new staff or train existing staff is based, again, on guessing and envisaging (does such a word exist?), rather than on solid facts.
‘In critical areas like the courts etc there are already provisions that provide for this but for people who are also native English speakers but who want to elect to be dealt with in irish or Welsh or ulster Scots then, sorry, but the wider community should not fund it.’
cynic, this isn’t accurate. The 1737 Languages Act, which prohibits the use of any language other than English to be used in a court of law, was rescinded 100 years ago in Scotland and Wales, yet still exists in the north, which means, whilst provision is made for Chinese, Polish, French etc speakers, the justice system does not recognise Irish, the indigenous language of this island, and as such, makes absolutely no provision for it.
“And the facts – and all academic research – regarding Irish medium education also confirm that those who attend such schools have better command of English and Irish than those who attend monoglot English schools.”
I don’t doubt it. Their parents are probably very passionate and committed and care about both the language and education. As I keep saying, I think that’s great and should be supported and funded wherever practicable.
Its the steps towards compulsion that I oppose.
“the justice system does not recognise Irish, the indigenous language of this island, and as such, makes absolutely no provision for it.”
Selmi
Not true. Under the fair trial provisions of HRA if someone who had only Irish or had Irish and poor English appeared before a court in the UK they have a right to translation / interpretation facilities to ensure a fair trial. This is rarely if ever used because in NI most Irish speakers are always at least / more fluent in English.
You are right though that there is no right for the proceedings to be heard in irish
When RG mentioned above that Irish speakers could fund their own signs, I think he was talking about road directional signage, not just streetnames which a lot of councils provide for anyway.
We have to think outside the box on these issues and I for one would be very happy to give monney for such signs in my own areas.
Ar aghaidh libh a chairde, nó b’fhéidir go bhféadfadh na Ceatharnaigh sin rud éigin a dhéanamh?
There is no such thing as a “Gaelic” language. If anything, it’s a language family consisting of what is now generally referred to as Irish (Gaeilge), Scottish Gaelic (Gàidhlig…in Scotland it’s generally pronounced Gah-lec…rhymes with Alec.) There’s also Manx (Gaelg).
Gaelic is merely an anglicised version of Gaoidhealg (modern Gaeilge/Gaeilig/Gaelainn etc..) and has only attained semi widespread use in the past 125 years or so. (thanks partly to the Gaelic League).
The reality is that the language we now know as Scots Gaelic was widely referred to as the “Yrish/Irishe tonge” until at least the late 17th century. For example, Queen Elizabeth I ordered that “Irishe speaking ministers be gotten out of Scotland” [for the purposes of conversion] in the 1570s. There are documents from London and Waterford from the mid 15th century which refer to the “Yrish langage”. There are many other examples…
Ireland was merely the centre of a cultural and linguistic entity of sorts that extended into large swathes of western Scotland and the Isle of Man.
Some Irish speakers themselves use the term “Gaelic”, but the main motivation in using that term amongst opponents of the language is to try and distance it from Ireland.
FWIW, Irish was widely spoken amongst Presbyterians in Ulster until the early 18th century. There are cases of them going into Catholic churches so that they could understand the message…as Protestant ministers often had insufficient Irish.
The usage of the Irish language has a few such ironies. I remember hearing about a protestant preacher who used to translate Catholic priests’ Latin at open air Masses into Irish so that the people could hear and understand.
I think the Irish language (and many other expressions of culture and history) are deserving of tax-funded support. I’m with cynic though on opposing exceedingly expensive “rights” for bilingual people not to have to conduct their business in English.
To be fair to those who feel diminished by having to speak in English, I’m sure they are not demanding such rights because it would lead to lots of extra jobs for fluent Irish speakers. That would be unworthy.
But the fact remains that such an expensive (and in the early 2000s, necessarily sectarian) job-creation scheme would be divisive. By stoking sectarian resentment against the cause of the language, it would hinder, rather than help, its adoption.
The way forward seems to be by promoting voluntary use of the language, and assisting cultural and educational activities.
Finally, it does not help the debate to portray everyone (or every unionist) who is sceptical about the costs and benefits of making all public bodies functionally bilingual as some kind of sectarian ogre hankering after a time when they could trample the “native Irish” into the dirt. That’s as daft as saying that all advocates of the Irish are would-be killers of protestant babies.
Can we have a civil debate, at least? On the merits of the thing?
To all those people that like complaining why dont you learn another indigeneous language and then you could moan and whinge intwo languages and have twice the fun.
go raibh a mile a maith agat!
By stoking sectarian resentment against the cause of the language, it would hinder, rather than help, its adoption.
You should speak with the stokers – the two unionist parties and the Traditional Unionist Voice. They’re the people stoking sectarian hatred against the language….
http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/siteFiles/images/newus_02.gif
Has anyone else noticed that the e has an accent and then loses it elsewhere?
That comes from lack of funding!
“They’re the people stoking sectarian hatred against the language….”
Course they are but its axiomatic that bring a Prod into it and they will be sectarian if they dare express a contrary view, no matter how well argued the points.
It’s nothing to do with ‘Prods’ cynic – it’s unionist political leaders who are stoking the sectarian hatred. You’re now trying to further stoke the sectarian fire. Some of the best and most committed Protestant speakers now and over the years have been ‘Prods’.
“, no matter how well argued the points. ”
I think the point i cynci thast unionists have only just started to argue to points. Welcome.
Up to now it has just been mocking sectarian abuse and pure ignorance.
I think all Irish speakers welcome unionists use of rational on the issue, however small.
@CoL – re “You should speak with the stokers – the two unionist parties…”
Do you really imagine that if you set up a giant job-creation scheme exclusively for Irish speakers, nobody in the non-Irish-speaking community will notice the sectarian imbalance? That they are going to need special stokers to point this out?
How can the resentment that would inevitably result (especially during a recession) increase cross-community love for the Irish language?
And do you actually believe that “sectarianism” is the only possible reason for objecting to a policy of taking money that should fund hospital beds and schools, and spending it on a corps of translators so that a tiny minority of English speakers don’t have to sully their ears with the English language?