“This Is the New PSNI – Just the Same as the RUC”
The éirígí website has provided footage of the RUC/PSNI house raid believed to have lead to the disturbances in Craigavon.
“I was outside the family home when the raid began and I was inside immediately afterwards speaking with the family, who are close friends of mine. The reality of the RUC–PSNI was here for all to see in broad daylight and the residents of this estate remain justifiably suspicious of the force”
ADDS: This may inform some of the discussion here on how the disturbance in Craigavon started and dispel some of the claims on what/who initiated the violence.
Drumbeg
Forgive me but I dont think we have seen you here much before. is this a first post? Are you a sock puppet?
As for
“And I suppose the policeman who makes a swing with his baton at the person with the cameraphone taking the clip was only engaging in “community outreach””
One of the first rule of telling lies is not to do it when there is video evidence that contradicts you. This clearly shows that the cop did not ‘take a swing with his baton’ but pointed it towards him then turned and walked away. As the person videoing was standing with a small group of abusive local residents its not even clear of his actions were addressing the filming or those acting up for the camera.
Jimmy Sands, welcome back! You’ve been missed.
Nomad, I think Mark should continue contributing to Slugger. I strongly object to his line, but that doesn’t change his right to talk about it. It’s a real pity “The Blanket” is not still around. I’d have liked to have read the cross-section of non mainstream republican views on these events.
Hilarious thread on a rather serious subject.
Mark, where are you? Are you on the run? I reckon you and your pals in Eirigi will take to wearing your hair long, growing beards, donning platform shoes and skinners and duffel coats, smoking roll ups, and talking about ‘the six county statelet’.
In fact, I’ve an even better idea: how about we turn that area of Craigavon and sections of the Dunclug Estate into a new theme park: ‘The Six County Estatelet’
You and the boys can prowl the streets in your Ford Cortinas with a speaker fastened to the top, keeping the locals updated on the ‘developing situation on the war front’ as well as distributing badly printed flyers on ‘state brutality’.
In the evenings, well, all sorts of street decorations could go on… You know, political art like ‘Brits Out, Not Sell Out’, ‘Out of the Ashes of 69′ and so on. And then there would be the ops – maybe you could get some local hoods who are needing a kneecapping to dress up as Brits to get in some practice before that certain day, when the dissident dream will be realised, and the real British Army come back onto the streets of Ireland…
Mind you, I wouldn’t put that last bit in any election literature.
And just think of the tourist potential.
Acording to the front page of today’s Irish News, the Colin Duffy mentioned above in fact is the Colin Duffy of IRA cop-killing (all charges dropped please, Miss Moneypenny) fame.
He is apparently a “leading figure” now in Eirigi and is pictured with three hilariously inbred yokels who claim to have been victims of the aforementioned police brootalitay.
Some company you’re keeping, Mark.
Dear God what is this all about
Police need to raid some areas if they get intellegance. It is what keeps us safe. Loyalist and Republican areas are both targeted.
Maybe it was a good idea to raid the area considering someone obviously had access to a sniper rifle!!
Republicans need to decide. do they want to support the police or not?
If not do you prefer supporting a man shooting 7 shots down a street full of people?
it really is scraping the bottom of the barrel to classify this clip as “police brutality”
Ex-senior IRA man condones dissident shootings at police
“A former leading IRA man has said attacks on police officers in Lurgan this week were a “symptom” of nationalists’ refusal to accept the PSNI. Colin Duffy was speaking after two days of serious rioting in Lurgan which saw separate gun, blast and petrol- bomb attacks on police. “
The post at the top of this thread is maybe the best definition of MOPEry that I have come across yet… If this is the best example of PSNI brutality that you can come up with then even an old sceptic like me is starting to think the new peelers might be for real after all…
Can Mark McGregor please be a man, come back to this thread and admit he got it wrong. It might salvage at least some credibility.
A real problem in my community, the Republican community, is that we have spent so many years opposed to the police, and removing whatever powers we could from them. Now that we’ve moved away from community policing (punishment shootings and beatings etc.) we realise we need the police, we have nothing else to protect us from the madness of anti social behaviour which is eating up our kids and our areas.
But by this stage the police are scared shitless to get the batons out and start dishing out a bit of violence of their own, so they end up standing, observing riots and doing very little about them. Where I live, I drive past a group of 20 to 50 kids drinking in the street. Cars are burned there regularly, and god help any reasonably normal kids with long hair, or some other distinctive look who walks past them.
Assaults happen all the time, young kids, old men and everything in between. The cops sit and watch them, but do very little, (most of the time). But when me and my partner (who between us have 6 kids, 7th on the way, all of them good, most of the time) drive past we can’t believe what these hateful pointless little bastards are doing to our lives, and those of the other residents who are abused and attacked. But the police can do very little, too many years of heavy handedness accusations have made them toothless to do their job. And I for one would love to see them get the batons out and start educating our young about rights and responsibilities, the parents don’t.
Incidentally while I’m meandering off topic, god help the old dear in Twinbrook who had her house set alight last night, and the firemen injured while responding to the call. WTF are the parents at?
You see skintown, I dont see that he has got it wrong, while the video is tame compared to what used to happen, it does not make this sort of behaviour from the PSNI acceptable. Yes the PSNI is not the RUC, yes policing has moved on, but this type of operation is wrong full stop.I am sure there was no need for this heavy handed approach.( not just the video but the testimony of the householders and neighbours confirm a heavyhanded approach) If I saw this type of squad outside my home I would not let them in either as I did manys a time in the bad old days. I worry because all is not well with policing, is it the heavy hand of MI5 that called this operation, lets not forget, nothing was found and no-one was charged> if it was MI5 then SF have got the policing thing totally wrong and either were misled by the Brits at St andrews or they have misled their supporters.Regardless SF inability to do anything constructive about this operation or the ongoing violence in the area is further evidence of a drift/rift and with such noteable republicans as Breandan MacCionnaith and Collie Duffy nailing their colours to the Eirigi mast it Portadown it does not bode well for SF. And before anyone criticises my response, ALL the violence was wrong, is to be condemned and just shouldnt fucking happen
excellent post neil.
“your countries”?
Individuals maybe but not countries
“this type of operation is wrong full stop ”
No its not. Its absolutely essential to stop lawless scum intimidating and murdering people to try to force their views on the community.
PS I saw the report on Mr Duffy’s speech. Is this the best they can do? SF-lite circa 1978? ?
Can someone please remind me who appointed him as a community leader? Who elected him?
“Can someone please remind me who appointed him as a community leader? Who elected him?”
Isn’t the traditional answer usually Tom Maguire?
maybe the sniper “elected” him?
…”You do the talking for a while, I do the shooting this time”
Personally i blame the local who rang the Police to say that Gary Glitter had been seen in the building.
cops stage mass lock down for ‘dissident bomb threats’ kids throw stones at them, cops hit kids and fire them in landrovers, kids throw petrol bombs, helicopters, landrovers, riots squads etc raid homes without warrants, break one kids arm, attack front and back of collins home, punch mammy, punch teen age daughter, line them up spread eagled out back and detain them til brother arrives and lift him for interfering and charge him with hijacking, alienate community, media reports savagery of horrible nationalist kids, ballon takes gun (allegedly) and fires shots at cops, dup introduce shoot to kill policy. great contribution to peace by psni – excellent
great great great. your a sound bunch on this slugger i must say. impartiality hanging right out of yis.
Nah Cynic sorry to disagree but this type of operation is wrong. Lock up those doing wrong, criminals no problems, search houses, arrest people, but do it in a way that is not reminiscent of the dark old days, do it in a way that will not give succour to republican elements and most importantly do it in a way that upholds the rights of the citizens that the PSNI are there to protect.What was the raid for?? Arms or drugs or people ? What was found? who was lifted? The chances are that this raid was inspired in Palace Barracks to placate those who have recently been calling for shoot to kill and other such nonsense. I want to move on and will not be dragged back into the mire by RIRA/CIRA?MI5 or whoever the fuck else, I have no time for Eirigi or their political analysis but the PSNI made the rod that Collie Duffy is beating them with
Oh dear – the PSNI seem to have confiscated capital letters, punctuation and grammar during their visit to Lurgan as well. The fiends! Down with this sort of thing!
“me” – you are not livng in the real world if you think there is an even more softly-softly approach that any police could employ if they have intelligence that a weapon, recently used to the extreme danger of the public, is being stored in a house to which the occupier refuses entry. what would the garda do? what would you do if you were the police?
Skin, I think the weapon was produced later that night i.e. after the raid. Anyway the PSNI did not recover anything from the house. What would I have done if I thought there was a weapon in the house? well with 6 heavily armed PSNI personnel at each entrance, I dont think it was going anywhere in a hurry.
careful now, (edited by moderator play the ball not the man)
“A real problem in my community, the Republican community, is that we have spent so many years opposed to the police, and removing whatever powers we could from them. Now that we’ve moved away from community policing (punishment shootings and beatings etc.) we realise we need the police, we have nothing else to protect us from the madness of anti social behaviour which is eating up our kids and our areas. ”
Quotes from cops
1 “and it serves you fucking right”
2 quote from one of the cops involved (off the record) ” I don`t give a fuck if they eat each other as long as the stay in the reservation”
3 “there is no going back, As son as the guns go off I`m off,Im not going to get hurt for anyone let orde get his arse shot off”
and similar
“What would I have done if I thought there was a weapon in the house? well with 6 heavily armed PSNI personnel at each entrance, I dont think it was going anywhere in a hurry.
careful now, (edited by moderator play the ball not the man)”
No, I suppose it probably wasn’t going anywhere in a hurry. Does that mean you would just stand around indefinitely, waiting for the door to open?
This is a ridiculous argument but I was hoping we could keep it at least above personal insults. Ivory towers are usually reserved for those who think that the police are never justified in the application of force, no matter what the risk or danger.
Barnshee
Where did you get those quotes from? Firsthand?
Noel-great post.
HAHAHA
The best is that kid walking the wee pug yelling “Tiocrgh ar La” (sp?). Bobby Sands would be proud
Well done Pete for calling Mark out – but remember that he is a propaganda mouth for an extremist organisation, so he has a job to do (“spin”, I believe it is called).
Last time eirigi were in the news was for erecting flags at an interface – again in order to try and provoke a riot.
More I hear of them, the more it is clear that they are an anti-prod nazi group – same characters involved in ethnic clensing in ballymena.
DK,
you give them way too much credibility in your description of them as some sort of organised and competent grouping.
Sure, they are a curious mix of dreamers, whackos, and corner boys united by a dislocation in themselves which compels them to adopt an ideology which enables them to work out their rage toward a target.
That target is obviously the relative harmony, peace and prosperity that is starting to trickle through society here – however, it is important to note, that on its own is not enough to sustain a campaign, or to ensure loyalty or group cohesion.
It therefore makes them very vulnerable to outside penetration and schisms – which is why I regard them as a ragbag group capable, in the long term, of very little in terms of political impact.
And they are, in the main, sectarian bigots. Although the more educated (read, idealistic) members may be baulk at this, the corner boy thugs/fellow travellers are reeking of it and practised in its dark arts.
Actions do, they say, speak louder than words.
Skin my personal remarks were directed toward the grammar teacher, who appears to ridicule the valid points made on this thread because of a lack of capital letters.
the PSNI have the right to use proportionate force as and when deemed necessary, the point I was trying to make was that this was not one of those occasions and the PSNI IMO made asses out of themselves.
BTW during the conflict, the RUC on numerous occasions used priests, community workers etc to negotiate with republicans in similar circumstances where weapons, explosives and personnel were captured,
The Point of this mess is that nothing was captured and no-one arrested and an INNOCENT family traumatised
” no-one arrested ”
A family member was arrested
” “ no-one arrested “
A family member was arrested”
Yes, arrested when he arrived at the house while the raid was in progress – no doubt for having the temerity to ask them what they were doing. I notice that no-one has been charged with any offences or any items recovered
“me”
The Point of this mess is that nothing was captured and no-one arrested and an INNOCENT family traumatised
You’re going to have to accept that in a normal, civil society, the police are required to conduct operations of this nature when acting upon intelligence. The police cannot simply raid a house, they have to get a warrant to do it first, and this involves due process and oversight by a judge. The police will have presented details of whatever intelligence they had to that judge. The warrant would not be granted without some kind of probable cause being shown.
I’ve seen nothing to suggest that the raid was unjustified. You do not see rioting and sniper fire when innocent people have their houses raided. Those things occur when Certain People are raided, and I’d say the police, along with eirigi, our pal Mark here, and the population of that estate know damn well the reason why those two houses were targetted. If my house was raided tomorrow, would I be phoning up that boy Duffy to ask him to protest on my behalf ? You must think we all came up the Lagan in a bubble.
Incidentally, the fact that the police raided the house and found nothing does not mean that the original cause for the raid was unfounded. Clearly, no evidence was found to establish the guilt of whoever lived there. While they must be presumed innocent until found otherwise by a court, they haven’t been proved innocent.
If they are so innocent, why did they not open the front door? Were they scared by Storm Trooper looking outfit the cops were in?
With the crowd around they could be sure of no ill-treatment.
C’mon, Mark. This is beneath you. The very most that that policeman could be accused of is over-aggressive knocking and waking the wee’un up.
WJ
“no doubt for having the temerity to ask them what they were doing.”
Suspicion of hijacking
“The police cannot simply raid a house, they have to get a warrant to do it first, and this involves due process and oversight by a judge. The police will have presented details of whatever intelligence they had to that judge. The warrant would not be granted without some kind of probable cause being shown.”
Comrade Stalin, I’m afraid you’re watching too much of ‘The Bill’ and getting confused about real life, warrants, judges, etc. What you outlined above may be the case elsewhere, but it is not the case in the north.
Under Section 81 of The Terrorism Act 2000 which is the power most commonly used by police in the North when conducting house or property searches:
‘A constable may enter and search any premises if he reasonably suspects that a terrorist, within the meaning of section 40(1)(b), is to be found there.’
The definition of what “reasonable suspicion” actually means is, I believe, still to be adjudicated upon by the courts.
One should remember that this is the same legislation which led to the home of a Muslim family in Forest Gate, London, being raided, one of the sons seriously shot and injured by police, family members being detained for several days, before all were released in what was later admitted to be a major “cock-up”.
The police were forced to apologise and Assistant Commissioner, Andy Hayman, said;
“I am aware that in mounting this operation, we have caused disruption and inconvenience to many residents in Newham and more importantly those that reside at 46 and 48 Lansdowne Road. I apologise for the hurt that we may have caused.”
As for comment regarding the family “While they must be presumed innocent until found otherwise by a court, they haven’t been proved innocent.”
There is no reason to PROVE their innocence – they have not been charged with any offence – terrorist, criminal, civil or otherwise.
So perhaps, you should stop trying to infer otherwise.
Craigavon and Ballymena! Jaysus boys this is not your daddy’s RA
Good points, legal eagle.
There is an assumption of guilt and malice placed on innocent civilians and another assumption of pristine non-sectarian innocence placed on the force of the state (despite their ignoble and well-documented history of raw sectarianism and, far more seriously, collusion with murder gangs in murdering citizens of the NI state). If the Shinners say the police are nice boys, then their sheepish supporters will agree. Some will even be overcome with emotion, wail about lawlessness (created by the Shinners) and will lament longingly for the good old days when RUC batons rained down on their heads, knocking sense and manners into troublesome taigs on such “reservations.” Tis the nature of the NI beast.
I had a look atbthe video. I certianly don’t think it is worth all the comments here, but then again people like to talk. I remember the RUC and what they were and I allowed myself a chuckle at the sight of the PSNI grappling with the latch on the gate. They are not the RUC even if they are more aware of cameras. They were a lot of aholes in evidence though who maybe are trying to relive soemthing their Da’s told them about from the large cop who wanted to be menacing and the young fellow shouting “get the cameras, tiocfaidh are la”.
Good luck to them all.
This video is hardly evidence to put the SS. into PSNI.
I was expecting blood & guts literally on the street, atleast 3 greetin auld ladies bemoaning trashed fixtures & fitings, & a couple of weans hit by p.bullets on their way to buy baps & milk.
come on Mark you can do better than this …. surely ?
…and if any of this is unjustified, then there’s an Ombudsman and other legal avenues available, for people who don’t want a riot on their estate.
Bingo Sammy – but Mark’s mate’s want the publicity.
Sammy see your blog… shite brown is a turn off.
“Siegfried’s Funeral March from The Ring”
is a good tune
confused, I don’t think there is any doubt that Mark scored an own goal by posting this video. In fact, he couldn’t have done self-parody any better even if that was his intent. However, you’d be well-served to remember that there is another semi-regular poster on Slugger whose bother was murdered by collusion between the PSNI and a loyalist murder gang after it was supposed to have reformed its unethical practices re Patten and this is documented in a report from the former Police Ombudsman Ms Nuala O’Loan. There is very good reason to keep a watchful eye on this force (the majority of whose members and management were recruited pre-Patten), particularly the role that the Shinners agreed for MI5 wherein, as Mark Durkan pointed out, MI5 may use the police service for their (typically sinister) purposes but where MI5 is not accountable to the Police Ombudsman for how they have used that police service. We are not dealing with unblemished saints here but, rather, an organisation that has conspired to murder the citizens of the state that it is charged with a duty to protect, and it’s foolhardy to pretend otherwise just because it suits political expediency to do so.
Dave : you raise some interesting points….. alternatively don’t stop taking that medication.
maybe you need to have a wee chat with your health care provider ?
What ‘points’ did you find particularly interesting? That MI5 has the lead role in anti-state ‘policing’ and that it isn’t accountable to the Police Ombudsman and, ergo, to the public?
What I find particularly interesting is that a unionist member of Northern Ireland’s Policing Board can call on the forces of the state to engage in summary executions (i.e. state murder of citizens) and yet he is permitted to retain his position on the policing board. Now where else would a man who openly calls on the state to murder its own citizens be allowed to retain his position? Given that the State in question has a long history of murdering its own citizens, his comment should be all the more alarming. So, why do you think it is that unionists don’t object to state murder or those who demand it? What does that tell you about the applicable mentality?
“If dissidents are shot on sight, the community will accept that it is a necessary use of lethal force to prevent dissident republicanism from growing”.
It seems that it isn’t just the police service that has a problem with ethics, is it?
Dave : ian paisley jr is a wanker of the first degree. you might disagree here, but he is hardly a rep. for the WHOLE “unionist”comunity only the edjits who voted him in.
Get over it & move on
NP, get over what? Get over that a culture exists wherein state murder is covered up or the fact that a culture also exists wherein a senior unionist politician and a member of the Policing Board can call on the police to engage in unlawful acts as vile as murder without personal sanction being imposed on him?
What you clearly lack (apart from the correct dose of Haloperidol and a functioning frontal lobe) is the sense of reality to grasp that it is neither normal nor acceptable for a member of the Policing Board to call on the police to commit murder. It is, however, very revealing that such abnormality does not trouble those who purport to support the rule of law.
When you have a police force that has a history of engaging in state murder (and post-Patten) and a senior member of the Policing Board calling on the police to engage again in state murder, you obviously don’t have a situation that is capable of operating without careful independent monitoring. Unfortunately, (and due to the Shinners owning favours to MI5), you don’t have a body that is capable of providing that diligent supervision.
Dave : you have too much rage.
you need to move on.