God’s Irish executioner and English political hero
Here’s a topic to stir the blood.. Oliver Cromwell is the subject this week of a major reappraisal by Irish historian Micheál O Siochrú and the main feature of the BBC History magazine. I can do no better than let the excellent Fintan O’Toole introduce him, quoting his Observer review:
“Even in these times, when all the talk is of putting history behind us, the easiest way to tell the difference between the Irish and the English is to utter the word “Cromwell.” Is Cromwell merely a folkloric bogeyman for the Irish?
Given the dominant mood of contemporary Irish historiography, one almost expects Micheál O Siochrú’s forensic and fastidious account to conclude that Old Ironsides really had a heart of gold. The fascination of the book is that, even when it is put through the wringer of low-key, unemotional and carefully documented analysis, he myth turns out to be mostly true.”
For the English ( not the Scots), emotions are a bit lower, though even there in 2000, the anniversary of Cromwell’s return from Ireland, the historian and leading Cromwell authority Professor John Murrill suffered for his interest in Cromwell:
“I was myself assaulted and received death threats. The depth of
hatred that still exists in Ireland is matched only by unawareness in non-Catholic
English circles of what Cromwell did in Ireland. I am reminded of GK Chesterton’s
remark that the tragedy of the English conquest of Ireland in the 17th century is
that the Irish can never forget it and the English can never remember it.”
Might the reason for all this unpleasantness have something to do with the fact that good professor was President of the Cromwell Association, and may be supposed to have plenty of good words to say on old Ironside’s behalf? Was he therefore the right man to be reviewing Cromwell’s life and work in BBC History magazine?. On inquiry, that seems unfair to him. A summary of the prof’s views suggests a more dispassionate view than the Irish, but very far from a whitewash. This for instance on the Siege of Drogheda which ended with the massacre after surrender of 2,500 immediately and hundreds more later.
“It was in accordance with the laws of war, but it went far beyond what any General had done in England. Cromwell then perpetrated a messier massacre at Wexford. Thereafter most towns surrendered on his approach, and he scrupulously observed surrender articles and spared the lives of soldiers and civilians. It was and is a controversial conquest. But, from the English point of view, it worked’
On the same occasion, Morrill, who is Professor of British and Irish History at the University of Cambridge contributed an article entitled ‘Was Cromwell a War Criminal?’
This is a carefully balanced piece “ for” and “against” but “against” contains the conclusion:
“This was ethnic cleansing on a scale undreamt of by Slobodan Milosevic”
I’ve always thought of Cromwell as follows. In the tsunami of religious conflict compared to our own pond ripples that was the 17th century, Cromwell was the epitome of the disciplined fanatic, who became an outstanding military leader out of his status and ability to raise a regiment in Huntingdonshire. He achieved this by the then revolutionary method of showing his fellow men respect as fellow Christians, training them – and paying them. None of that feudal nonsense any more. Decidedly less favourably, as a Bible Protestant who nonetheless tolerated other Protestants in an intolerant age, he despised the Catholic Irish – and Catholic English – as being beyond the Pale ( even if they were in it if you see what I mean).
At Drogheda he employed usual siege warfare conventions. In those days,besiegers were almost as vulnerable as the besieged because of exposed supply lines and an ever-present threat of disease. So the besiegers warned those cooped up that if they didn’t surrender by XX, they’d be massacred. Which they duly were. And most of them were English. But although Cromwell must be judged mainly by the standards of his time. I’m now convinced he brought an extra edge to the business.
As O’Toole puts it: ( His conduct at Drogheda was) a refusal to distinguish between civilians and combatants and a resort to ethnic cleansing. In his first engagement, at Drogheda, he personally supervised the slaughter of about 2,500 soldiers and an indeterminate number of civilians. The arguments of apologists that this was within the laws of war at the time are contradicted by the evidence in Cromwell’s own account that he himself understood the scale of the massacre to be exceptional. It would, he admitted, have prompted ‘remorse and regret’ were it not intended to have exemplary effect as both collective punishment and a warning for the future.”
In England I see Cromwell as a sort of latter day Musharriff, executing the previous leader, always dissolving parliaments, shooting democrats ( the Levellers at Burford Church) and claiming divine inspiration for the lot. And… so totally failing to create a stable regime that they had to bring back the old one. The TV historian Tristram Hunt likens him to a puritanical ruthless Taliban leader.
Yet you can’t eliminate him from the history of the British constitution, as the unifier of the three kingdoms who still leaves trace elements behind in the DNA of the development of British democracy, even up to today.
Hunt states:
“Reverence for Cromwell was one of the few socialist traditions that survived the transition from old to new Labour. Frank Dobson, a politician whose career symbolises the difficulty of that passage, is a leading light (along with Lady Antonia Fraser) of the Cromwell Association. And Dobson shares the same machine-politics admiration for the Roundheads that Tawney expressed. “For me, it boils down to this,” he responded to a question about Cromwell’s actions at Drogheda. “He was on the right side in the civil war and, because of him, the right side won. He changed the course of English history, and changed it for the better.”
But I found quite the best romantic English revolutionary view of Cromwell in a Communist site – appropriately enough – for I was taught Cromwell by the historian they revere, the very late revisionist Christopher Hill. Cromwell swept away the feudal order, and installed the bourgeoisie in the second stage of the English Revolution. That’s why he remains something of an English hero to the English broad left.
We’re still waiting for the third stage.
P.S. Should you be concerned – yes Cromwell’s Irish record is exposed in the English national curriculum.
“[i]UMH…. the pope can [u]fuck off too!”[/u][/i]
I don’t like the way you ended that. Are you saying any person in Ulster with an Ulster Gaelic surname and history who doesn’t see themselves as Irish can fuck off along with the Pope?
At the ~Poly i attended, the angle for Cromwell’s assault on Ireland was based on what today would be called “shock & awe” hit them hard, ruthlessly & they will fold. As resistance did after Drogheda, Wexford & Waterford.
Also Cromwell unfairly gets the blame for all the 1640s troubles, before he even got to ireland.
He also had to keep the NMA. in order, after the Leveller revolt, by promising them some “loot” as he had little “coin” land in in Ireland as reward was his only option.
“realpolitik” was the order of the day
“I don’t like the way you ended that. Are you saying any person in Ulster with an Ulster Gaelic surname and history who doesn’t see themselves as Irish can fuck off along with the Pope?”
Posted by Ulsters my homeland on Aug 28, 2008 @ 11:56 PM
You are Irish (ask anyone from England, Scotland or Wales) but of a different (British) identity. No one’s asking you to eff off (presumably back to Scotland). You belong here.
I actually have a lowland Scots surname myself presumably brought into Ireland during the Plantation. Don’t feel Scots in any way. It was too long ago. Any Scots relatives I have are way too distant to interest me or them.
An Irish gobsheite, Lol
Posted by Ulsters my homeland on Aug 28, 2008 @ 11:42 PM
Thanks UMH most people say I have no right to talk because I am a Canadian but you’ve elevated me to Irish so now I have the right to comment
Thanks
“I don’t like the way you ended that. Are you saying any person in Ulster with an Ulster Gaelic surname and history who doesn’t see themselves as Irish can fuck off along with the Pope?”
Am I saying the above?…….eh well no UMH, you are!
I implied Cromwell as well as the pope, together hand in hand off into the sunset.
Are you empathising with the pope now?
Níl a gcuid an Aontachtaí teoiricí ag teacht le cheile!
see my point 2 above.
Cromwell seems to have got about Ireland, to the same degree as St. Pat.
see. st gobnaits macroom, where one of “the stations” is to touch a canonball that O. Cromwell “literally” used to destroy the church there. Satan himself guided said projectile in its unholy flight.
When was Mr. Cromwell in West Cork ?
because they spread a new Christianity which would eventually render all Priests and Popes powerless in their spiritual and temporal domain.
Which they did very successfully, as we all now enjoy the benefits of living in the Puritan Commonwealth of Ireland.
I have an gaelic first name (sean)and a prussian last name what does that make me
a pric ?
How come no-one get as angry at the scottish Bruce invasion prior to cromwell. Oh, yes, it’s simple xenophobia against the english (or inglezes as the more racist of you say).
DK : the English have always tempered their policy in Ireland, as a preventative to invasion “through the back door”.
if the Irish had been “top dogs” would they have acted in any way different from the English ?
“How come no-one get as angry at the scottish Bruce invasion prior to cromwell. Oh, yes, it’s simple xenophobia against the english (or inglezes as the more racist of you say).”
DK – ermmm no it’s not!
Bruce’s intensions was to free Ireland from English rule. The Irish crowned de Bruce High King of Ireland in 1316. de Bruce referred to the Scots and Irish collectively nostra nacio (our nation), stressing the common language, customs and heritage of the two peoples:
“Whereas we and you, and our people and your people, free since ancient times, share the same national ancestry and are urged to come together more eagerly and joyfully in friendship by a common language and by common custom, we have sent you our beloved kinsman, the bearers of this letter, to negotiate with you in our name about permanently strengthening and maintaining inviolate the special friendship between us and you, so that with God’s will our nation (nostra nacio) may be able to recover her ancient liberty.”
I guess there was always a strong bond between Ireland and Scotland that existed long before this loyalty to an English crown, religious puritanism, Rangers etc…that we have today.
Thousands of years ago the Gaelic speakers travelled to and fro between Ireland and Scotland trading, settling etc…long before the religious and political concepts that we have today.
Ulster’s My Homeland
It was the pope that dunnit, the pope closed down all the potato factories.
(Father Ted)
Greagoir O’Frainclin – Shouldn’t it read:
“Thousands of years ago the pre-Indo European speakers travelled to and fro between Ireland and Scotland trading, settling etc…”
As to the actual history, did the Gaels move from Britain to Ireland, or the other way around?
Occasional Commentator …
“Thousands of years ago the pre-Indo European speakers travelled to and fro between Ireland and Scotland trading, settling etc…
As to the actual history, did the Gaels move from Britain to Ireland, or the other way around?”
Archaeological opinion today says that it might have been from Ireland to Britain as well or whatever…The vital link is the western seaboard from north Africa upwards where people travelled freely up and down, trading, settling,etc… Hence the cultural connections and similarities (ie music, languages etc..) that still survive to this day between Spain (Basque), North France (Britanny), England(Cornwall), Isle of Man, Wales, Ireland, Scotland, etc…Languages of these areas are unique, they don’t appear to have an equivalent in other areas of Central Europe where the ‘Celts’ were supposed to have emerged/lived…ie La Tene etc. There is a distinction of the peoples in these areas I’ve mentioned too of having very dark hair, as can be seen in the people of the west of Ireland today; the ancient picts of Scotland were described as dark in appearance. The concept of the Gaels/Celts arriving in Ireland bringing all the trappings of what we know today as Gaelic culture seems to be a fallacy of 19th century opinion. The ancient culture and language of Ireland may in fact have developed over thousands of years from a common ancestor which evolved and branched out to form Irish, Cornish, Manx, Welsh etc… There are ‘Celtic’ spirals to be found on rock carvings in North Africa very similar to on the ancient great stones of Newgrange in County Meath. There could be an element of truth to the ancient Irish story of the Milesians coming to Ireland from Spain as the oldest remains of a human being in Europe were found in Spain. It is actually incredible such age old cultural similarities that have been there all along under our noses but some how were lost in time and political opinion!
Check out the books….
“The Atlantean Irish” by Bob Quinn
“Blood of the Isles” by Bill Sykes
All facinating stuff Occasional Commentator!
“[i]The vital link is the western seaboard from north Africa upwards where people travelled freely up and down, trading, settling,etc… Hence the cultural connections and similarities (ie music, languages etc..) that still survive to this day between Spain (Basque), North France (Britanny), England(Cornwall), Isle of Man, Wales, Ireland, Scotland, etc…Languages of these areas are unique, they don’t appear to have an equivalent in other areas of Central Europe where the ‘Celts’ were supposed to have emerged/lived…ie La Tene etc. There is a distinction of the peoples in these areas I’ve mentioned too of having very dark hair, as can be seen in the people of the west of Ireland today; the ancient picts of Scotland were described as dark in appearance. “[/i]
Where did the ginger hair come from?
“[i]The concept of the Gaels/Celts arriving in Ireland bringing all the trappings of what we know today as Gaelic culture seems to be a fallacy of 19th century opinion.”[/i]
It’s not correct to link Gaels and Celts together as if we’re talking about the same people. There were different waves of ‘Celts’. The first wave (with the dark hair) are likely to be the picts, who spoke a Brittonic language. The second wave (with the ginger hair) are likely to be the Gaels of the 3rd century, who spoke Gaelic.
There is even a theory that red hair is an inherited feature from Neanderthal/Cro Magnon interbreeding, which would also link to Jews.
Tacitus thought that the ruddy coloring of the Picts made them Germanic, the observation being reported by Agricola, of course.
There is of course the even more modern theory (just formulated by yours truly) that all red-haired people, everywhere, and throughout the course of human development, are in a direct line of descendency from the flame-haired American troubador, Willie Nelson. This is reinforced by all empirical evidence – go on – have a look for youself!
“…who spoke a Brittonic language”
UMH….so it wasn’t same tongue as Shakespeare then!
BTW, gingers can be found in North Afica, as well as the Middle East, naturally occuring too, not from a Wella bottle!
However it could be evidence that little Willie may have paid a visit to these places in the past!
OMG, Dr. Rory, PhD., all these folks your theory speaks of were conceived by sperm high on THC! Any comment?
Who cares, man? Chill out.
“Who cares, man? Chill out.”
I didn’t care enough to make up some bullshit and then be an arse.
Oh, do relax, Occassional. I was only playing with the limitations of human understanding and I had somehow imagined that you would know that. Obviously I was wrong and I do apologise.
I find that relaxing with a glass of a whiskey, a large spliff and Willie Nelson playing in the background does help in these matters. I do so recommend it.
What are you, Rory, English? Always telling others what to do!
Merely a suggestion, old fruit. I certainly do pass the “Does yer mither come frim I- er-land?” benchmark
I was conceived in London during the height of the Blitz in ( or indeed possibly on,) Woolwich Common but my father was a stout advocate of the “fuck that for a game of soldiers” school of thought and was to be one of my great heroes for being among the first Irishmen to Holyhead as conscription threatened. As a consqeuence I was born in the most sacred place in Ireland where Patrick said his first mass and where his mortal remains are said to yet to remain, which I like to believe.
Decide then my nationality for yourself. “Irish” suits me grand and I trust I wear it well..
Why do people continue to argue with idiots?
By arguing points regarding political or religious rights or wrongs what point are you trying to prove?
Do you hope to convince people of opposing beliefs that you are right and they are wrong?
What I have learnt from this forum is that most of the posters think they are right and otherwise would not post. They come on to exercise their linguistic verbasity and inflate their own egos.
Maybe some of you are political activists and use this site as a front for whatever organsiation you represent. I feel your efforts are futile as people in the North of Ireland/ Northern Ireland (delete as appropriate) are not interested in the purile efforts manufactured in these forums and your opinions matter not a jot in the real world.
Cromwell was a murdering egotistical maniac. Wise up and go do something creaive rather than arguing this point to death.
‘BTW, gingers can be found in North Afica’
I don’t doubt it. I actually came across a ginger on a beach in Freetown which is in western Africa !!!!!
Now, now, Ard Eoin, please don’t be cruel to the likes of us. Trotting out the oul’ “lingusitic verbasity” is the most exercise some of us get these days, but at least it’s our attempt to follow government guidelines.
p.s. Loved your post. x
I don’t think anyone has mentioned this yet but I think the author of the book is speaking at the QUB Festival.
OK, Rory, if we’re gonna brag, let me just say the family has a tenuous claim to be descended from a Scotchman that sat on Cromwell’s parliament. (Almost on topic.)
And Gran’dad was a mule skinner.