Do we already have a kind of United Ireland/United Kingdom?
[This is taken from A Note from the Next Door Neighbours, the monthly e-bulletin of Andy Pollak, Director of the Centre for Cross Border Studies in Armagh and Dublin]
This ‘Note’ will contain personal opinions which some strong traditional unionists and nationalists may take exception to – although I believe many ordinary thinking Northern Irish and Irish people will find them uncontroversial. So I should begin with a disclaimer: on this occasion these are my own ideas and do not at all represent the views of the Centre for Cross Border Studies. Here is a provocative question. What if we already have a kind of a united Ireland – while at the same time continuing to have a kind of United Kingdom? And what if, in this globalised age of small national boundaries becoming increasingly irrelevant (except in Georgia!), “a kind of” is as much as Irish nationalists and Ulster unionists can expect, and we should just get on with making a good fist of this “kind of” uniquely bilocated society, which allows Northern Irish people to take advantage of two of everything: two identities, two nationalities, two cultures, the support of two governments, two ways of looking at the world. What if, after more than 30 years of killing each other, we have stumbled across a brilliant, if complicated, post-modernist solution to four centuries of conflict in this north-eastern corner of Ireland? Visitors from continental Europe already say that the Irish border is one of the most invisible in the EU. When I cross the border on the main Dublin-Belfast road every Monday morning on my way to work in Armagh, I am driving one of the 14 million cars which cross annually at that point. At least 18,000 people cross the border every day to work, and 1.7 million people cross it annually by bus and train for shopping and other short-term trips. The Centre for Cross Border Studies earlier this year set up the Border People website for the North/South Ministerial Council (www.borderpeople.info) to help such people deal with the practical issues of crossing the border to work, study or retire: job seeking, social and health benefits, taxation, house-hunting, banking, insurance and so on. Everyone knows about the dense and rich network of cross-border relationships between institutions, organisations and people – economic, social, educational and cultural – that has blossomed since the 1998 Belfast Agreement. But many of these emerged from roots which went back much further. A quarter of a century ago the distinguished political scientist John Whyte burrowed through reference books from one of the darkest years of the ‘troubles’, 1973, to find that 21 per cent of the more than a thousand private organisations then operating in Ireland were organised on an all-island or all-archipelago basis (with 15% in the former category). So it’s not just on a North-South basis that we Irish and Northern Irish people are blessed with multiple choices. Looking eastwards, those of us in the North enjoy all the benefits – still considerable, although lessening – of the British welfare state. Those of us in the South enjoy a passport-free zone – although this may now be threatened by new British anti-terrorism measures – and a free trade area with our large neighbour, while Irish citizens ‘over the water’ continue to be treated for most purposes as indistinguishable from their British counterparts. The recent close relationship between the Irish state and the European Union may also be about to alter radically, since June’s successful campaign against the Lisbon Treaty – spearheaded among others by Sinn Fein – may see Irish links with Europe significantly weakened and links with Britain strengthened as an unintended consequence. A number of Dublin commentators have pointed to this as a real possibility if Ireland fails to pass a second referendum to approve Lisbon, and the Eurosceptic Conservatives take over in London in the next two years. We should not forget how insignificant we in Ireland are in European terms. Ireland, let alone Northern Ireland, is a pimple on the history of the continent. In Tony Judt’s magisterial history of Europe since World War Two (Postwar, Pimlico, 2007), our 30 year civil conflict merits just two pages out of over 830. During the past decade and more we have availed of the extraordinary generosity of the taxpayers of Europe: in the South through successive EU Structural Funds, in the North through a dedicated Peace Programme. Now that it has helped us to establish peace and prosperity to a very significant degree, such assistance is rightly going instead to the poorer emerging democracies of Central and Eastern Europe. So let us enjoy our unprecedented ‘united Ireland to some/United Kingdom to others’ dual identity. Friendship alongside interdependence is a far, far better place, after all, than the old ‘antagonism plus dependence’ model which characterised Irish-British relations throughout the last century. The Northern poet John Hewitt rejoiced in having the rich complexity of four elements in his “hierarchy of values” – Ulster, Irish, British and European – and warned that “anyone who omits one step in that sequence of values is falsifying the situation.” We could learn from him. Andy Pollak
To deny that the peoples of the two islands are inextricably linked would be absurd and to pretend that a Dubliner has no more in common with a Mancunian than he has with a Parisian whatever the colour his parents’ passports used to be would be to deny simple reality.
I can’t argue with that though I think for similar reasons, the Irish and British have a lot more in common with Americans ((as opposed to say, Canadians or Australians) than they might think/wish.
“No. It is because a group of Irish people (or not as they may themselves choose) chose not to secede from the United Kingdom.”
In which case your right to self-determination is based on being British, not Irish.
Dec, I’m calm as a summer breeze, old girl. Now go wiggle your bosom in someone’s else face. Thanks.
Only if you stop screaming like a bitch about Eugenics and a (get a load of this) “drop thistrite piece of nonsensical propaganda instead of proffering it as a reason why sovereignty should be determined with racial traits?”
My, I almost fell asleep re-pasting that.
“In which case your right to self-determination is based on being British, not Irish. ”
One can be both Irish and British lets not forget.
Dave
In which case your right to self-determination is based on being British, not Irish
Exactly the point. The British identity to that mindset is the prime national identity. The one with the rights. When someone with that view claims to be Irish they don’t mean the same thing as the vast majority of Irish people. It is not a nationality but a regional identity. But it can’t be both. It’s one or the other.
There is no way of simultaneously belonging to and repudiating the Irish nation.
“Sovereignty is the power make decisions and to act on them. It is inspirable from democracy – which, incidentally, is the process of appoint people to exercise the sovereignty.”
Of course but on your terms it must therefore be restrictive and to a closed-jurisdiction which is not the case as options are open to NI. Sovereignty is extended on a cross-border basis, people are given entrance into a different realm whereby appointments have been extended to an other jurisdiction, with the realm limited or perhaps delimited. Besides the sphere in which decisions are taken is today already limited such as EU laws, Bunreach Na HEireann, there is no reason why NI politicians, if coming with knowledge and good ideas, cannot play a part in shaping policy as a result of the open door situation.
So if an understanding of policy decisions within this context can be gained then across Westminster and the Oireachtas, NI politicians can return to Stormont informed with ideas that can either be considered as implementable or not based on reasoned judgement (underpinned by economics).
Dave, I bet you view sovereignty as a gold treasure chest with the key only available to certain people, even the name ‘sovereignty’ harks back to concepts now outdated as a result of interdependence, a response to globalisation and global capital that brings people closer together on the basis of economics.
Whether they mean the same thing as the ‘vast majority’ of Irish people is entirely irrelevant. An identity does not need self-determination nor does it need to cleave to political boundaries. Nationality is an invented concept and is therefore open to different interpretations, which may be cultural or political. Irishness cannot be prescribed by one group which lays claim to it. I’m afraid whether you like it or not, Irishness does not begin and end with Irish nationalism.
Dec, I appreciate that you are probably in a bad mood because you menstruated on your second-hand eBay NIKES, but could you kindly keep your hooknose tucked into your frilly bloomers you wear on your head and out of my posts if all you are going to do slobber your spittle in my direction like a raving mong with a criss-crossed shoelace scar on its sloped forehead? Thanks in advance.
Henry, I couldn’t have put it better myself. Essentially, the claim of those who are British to be Irish is an expedient tactic that is being deployed to deprive those who are Irish or their right to a nation-state. The new state must be one that is British or overly pro-British. This leaves those who are Irish without a valid claim to self-determination (and sans a nation-state) but leaves those who are British within NI with two valid claims to self-determination in two separate states. In the real world, those who are British already have a validated claim to self-determination: an entity called Great Britain already exists. So, all that remains for them to do is to dissolve the entity wherein those who are Irish have a valid claim to self-determination (the nation-state of Ireland) and replace it with whatever suits those who are British (but now claim to be Irish). There is nowhere on earth where one nation controls two states with one valid claim to self-determination, and there is no basis in international law for validated such a request. Even as it stands, their claim to self-determination is British (not some other ad hoc) entity. Irish people need to dismiss this propaganda outright rather than entertain it.
“Whether they mean the same thing as the ‘vast majority’ of Irish people is entirely irrelevant. I’m afraid whether you like it or not, Irishness does not begin and end with Irish nationalism. ”
Indeed. Emerson Tennant, a 19th century Belfast MP, he said, “we wish to add to the glory of being British, the distinction of being Irish”. And so it remains today, two centuries later.
Chekov
I’m afraid whether you like it or not, Irishness does not begin and end with Irish nationalism.
Of course. Nationalism may never have won the support of the Irish people but they would still be Irish. Those of us who were nationalists would have had to accept that. Scots are an example. The SNP has not won a majority but Scots are Scots.
But if they did win how could anyone reject that democratic decision and still claim to be part of the nation entitled to make it. It’s not possible.
You could still hold yourself to be British and a Scot while living in an independent Scotland of course. You coud advocate re-union. Scottishness would not begin or end with nationalism.
DC, where do you get that stuff from? Perhaps you missed the creation of fortress Europe? You know, keeping the foreigners out of Europe lest they ‘steal’ jobs from the white Christians? The EU operates as any other competitive nation-state operates, rallying the masses around its flag, shared identity, and nationalism, and when it gets its army, it’ll continue its imperial, expansionist agenda by violent means rather than chicanery and gradual perversion of the democracies of its member states. It isn’t “the world” kid, it’s just a small part of the world with 93% of the world’s population living in nation-states outside of it and competing with it.
“But if they did win how could anyone reject that democratic decision and still claim to be part of the nation entitled to make it. It’s not possible.”
So those who take up arms against the GFA can’t be Irish?
slug
Who is taking up arms against the GFA?
Those dissident republcans who reject the Agreement, Henry.
Identity is relative, open doors to people you become relational, close them you are excluded. Of course the level to which people can impact on decisions is set and controlled, sometimes as a result of EU laws, human rights, Bunreach Na HEireann, and of course democracy and its decision-making boundaries.
There are key arguments in your stance but while they throw up some key points they also tend to hide the complexity of decision making today: for example, 10-20 years down the line how much impact will the behaviour of China and India have on European to national to local decision making? The ability to make decisions is always relative to the ability to fight opinion amongst others, better ideas tend to amplify the fight so does having more opportunity to share these ideas – decision making is based on what works. This is what killed off socialism which probably has as much relevance as your fixed views on modern day sovereignty.
slug
Have they said that? My understanding is they are taking up arms (stupidly in my view) against the British occuapation and the partition of the the country. I don’t think the existence of the agreement has anything to do with it.
I think the views of two humble lads from Liverpool should be brought to bear on this subject:
“Give Ireland back to the Irish
Don’t make them have to take it away
Give Ireland back to the Irish
Make Ireland Irish today
Great Britain you are tremendous
And nobody knows like me
But really what are you doin’
In the land across the sea”
Paul McCartney
“You anglo pigs and scotties
Sent to colonize the north
You wave your bloody union jack
And you know what it’s worth!
How dare you hold to ransom
A people proud and free
Keep Ireland for the irish
Put the English back to sea!
…
Repatriate to Britain
All of you who call it home
Leave Ireland to the Irish
Not for London or for Rome!”
John Lennon R.I.P.
P.S. I don’t like the anglo pigs bit. A tad contumelious methinks
Henry so they are still Irish despite the GFA being the will of the Irish?
Henry, why are you carrying this on? Driftwood summed it up beautifully early on. Being Irish is no more meaningful than being a VW owner. It means nothing to them.
The British have the right to self-determination. The Irish don’t. At least we Irish know where we stand.
“The British have the right to self-determination. The Irish don’t. At least we Irish know where we stand. ”
Pathetic.
slug
National independence is the will of the Irish. The GFA is how most of us think we should get there. But if we had the military power we would expel the British forces and we would be right to do so.
Then you would have a real choice about being Irish and I hope you would decide to stay.
Briso
Henry, why are you carrying this on?
My bus isn’t due for a while yet.
Henry –
“if we [the Irish] had the military power we would expel the British forces”
Says who?
“Nationality is an invented concept and is therefore open to different interpretations, which may be cultural or political.”
“I’m afraid whether you like it or not, Irishness does not begin and end with Irish nationalism.”
So what about British Nationalism then, a concept developed by the London adminisitration and bolstered in the 19th century to unite the nations of these islands for primarily England’s protection and welfare in an imperial Europe of greedy empires and land grabbing. I guess some folk are still living in Victorian times of Rule Britannia etc…
As I always say Ireland’s request for Home Rule; to govern ourselves, run our own affairs, initially within the GB UK Union, Commonwealth & Empire, was a fair request, but continually turned down! Finally granted in part, and on GB’s terms, the Irish nation was partitioned.
However, today the Republic of Ireland’s relationship with England and the UK has never been stronger now that there is a level playing field, now that the status is equal between the two countries. Too bad some NI folk are still in the 19th century mindset.
Henry94: We will be voting as British citizens.
Wrong. British and/or Irish citizens resident in NI will be eligible. Did you not know that?
Henry94: National independence is the will of the Irish. The GFA is how most of us think we should get there. But if we had the military power we would expel the British forces and we would be right to do so.
Wouldn’t you have to change the constitution first?
Henry94: But if Scotland voted for independence all Scots should accept the outcome of that democratic decision. And all Irish people should do the same.
So now *you’re* the one insisting the the British should have one more right than the Irish – the right to go their separate ways.
Either that, or you think that Britishness can comprise multiple nations, but that Irishness cannot.
Either way, I think you’re wrong. And choosing to map Irishness to Britishness was a serious tactical error on your part. Do you think it might be right to partition Britain?
Can anyone tell me if my cat is British, Irish, Northern Irish, or just a plain old Tabby cat called Bismarck?
He tends to go a bit loopy during the summer months, but I’m not sure if that makes him Unionist or Nationalist. i’m pretty sure he’s not Alliance as he doesn’t like sitting on fences.
Is there a DNA test I can buy on the internet, ideally 2 for 1 as I’d like to test myself as well.
Indeed. Do what YOU can. Vote YES to Free Europe at http://www.FreeEurope.info !
http://pets.iloveindia.com/cats/cat-breed/british-shorthair.html
It’s ok everyone, looks like most felines on our island are Brits! At least they’re probably not working for MI5 like most of SF.
Driftwood, cat owners who own Persian cats would be faced with identity issues. Not just if their cats are British, Irish or Northern Irish.If the cats which originate from Persia (Iran or Turkey) which were then imported to Britain via France and then make it over the Oirish Sea.Sometime’s it’s hard to pigeon hole a cat and put him in a box?
Reader, it’s worse even than that with ould Henry. Take this gem of his: “They [the SNP, PC &c;] seek reform while accepting the status quo. But if Scotland voted for independence all Scots should accept the outcome of that democratic decision”. Because of course in Henry94′s world, once someone has voted for his preferred option, that’s it – no more need for voting. Certainly there’s no prospect of ever being able to democratically overturn that decision. Thus, you can, for example, try to vote yourself out of the Union as many times as you want (otherwise Henry and co will simply scweam and scweam and scweam), but evidently it’s woebetide you should you ever presume – even if it’s merely only a matter of being theoretically out! – to have that selfsame right to vote yourself back in. I’m sure there’s a proper generic term for this particular political pathology, but I’ve a feeling it’s a tad over-used on the internet (and possibly slightly excessively in, oh, Munich 70 odd years ago).
“If the cats which originate from Persia (Iran or Turkey) which were then imported to Britain via France and then make it over the Oirish Sea.”
Ha ha ….But why do people always asume that everything that ended up in Ireland came here via Europe and then Britain first? Please note that there are the seas, and early humans were great mariners that used the seas to travel. BTW there was a skeleton of a barbery ape foung in the ancient gaelic fort of Emain Mhaca in Ulster, boosting the likelyhood of Ireland’s prehistoric links with North Africa. Hence, the countries along the western seaboard of Europe have very strong cultural links, that are still evident today.
Christianity is another import that probably arrived here via Coptic Christian monks of Egypt long before the credit was giving to St. Patrick himself who was later imbued with the title of patron saint and the Irish or Celtic church subjected to papal control by the Normans!
Regarding cats…..
“I and Pangur Ban my cat,
‘Tis a like task we are at:
Hunting mice is his delight,
Hunting words I sit all night.
Verse of an 8th century Irish poem written by a monk bout his cat.
Rooster
But if Scotland voted for independence all Scots should accept the outcome of that democratic decision”. Because of course in Henry94’s world, once someone has voted for his preferred option, that’s it – no more need for voting.
Aside from hurtling into Godwin, that’s overreach. Henry didn’t actually state what should happen after.
In any case, the principle of “vote back in” is sound; assuming England accepts. It is very easy to apply in Scotland, certainly as it as as the moment. But Northern Ireland is not a country like Scotland is a country. Would it really be conceivable that Ballymena could somehow vote a settled and happy Derry back into the UK? The end result of that logic is repartition, which I doubt anyone is klen on.
“Would it really be conceivable that Ballymena could somehow vote a settled and happy Derry back into the UK?”
Well if it’s ok for Derry to vote a settled and happy Ballymena out then its ok for Ballymena to vote Derry in. What is good for the Goose.
Rooster
But if Scotland voted for independence all Scots should accept the outcome of that democratic decision”. Because of course in Henry94’s world, once someone has voted for his preferred option, that’s it – no more need for voting.
What I said at 3.46 today deals with that very issue
You could still hold yourself to be British and a Scot while living in an independent Scotland of course. You could advocate re-union. Scottishness would not begin or end with nationalism.
Rader
Either that, or you think that Britishness can comprise multiple nations, but that Irishness cannot.
Britain is a union of three nations. That’s their own definition.
What are the two nations in Ireland? There is the Irish and who? Those who claim to be Irish but are somehow exempt from it at the same time?? Because that is the issue here.
To my mind it is simple enough. We have an Irish population and a British population who are an ethnic enclave.
Do you think it might be right to partition Britain?
It wouldn’t be partition. England and Scotland are not the same nation just the same state. Ireland was brought into that union as an entity. It should be allowed to leave peacefully. All the fruit of the denial of that right is a consequence of a crime against the Irish nation.
That does not mean we have to resolve the problem by violent means. But neither should we lose sight of what the issue is.
Greagoir O’ Frainclin that’s not an assumption about Persian cats. I read it on the interweb and it must be true
“Britain is a union of three nations. That’s their own definition.”
“On this site the term ‘Britain’ is used informally to mean the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Read on to find out more about how England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are administered.”
http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page823
Slug, haven;t you got it yet? Not merely can Nationalists tell us who is Irish, they can also tell us who isn’t British. They do like telling, do Nationalists. It must be that grisly ethnic chauvinism of theirs.
I’m still lost.
Bismarck has been designated a British shorthair cat.
But he lives in Northern Ireland.
He doesn’t (yet) seem to show any signs of an identity crisis, but I worry about his future.
What if he has kittens with his companion, will they be Irish or British? I haven’t seen any Irish felines on the horizon. They all appear to be British shorthairs. I worry he’ll be ghettoised in to Unionist feline company.
Maybe eirigi can set up an Irish cat community forum, free from evil British influence,Coronation St, Whiskas etc. What’s the Irish for Whiskas, anyone?
Whiskas etc. What’s the Irish for Whiskas, anyone?
….Guairí
Meow!
Henry -
You stated: “if we [the Irish] had the military power we would expel the British forces”
So you think the Republic of Ireland would go to war against Britain if they had the military might, regardless of the wishes of the people of NI? I consider your statement delusional in the extreme. Please provide an argument – it should be good for a laugh.
slug
It would be good for a laugh, the RAF would take 2 minutes to dismiss them. The Irish Defence Force (Republic of..) has about the same military presence as Togo.
But we shouldn’t laugh, The Republic of Ireland ia a ‘sovereign nation’. As is Equatorial Guinea.
They should all be treated equally.
Greagoir, yes “Whiskas” should be given an Irish name. But what about the cats? We can’t have British shorthairs running around the Republic like Black Northerners? Surely a campaign to reintroduce the ‘Irish shorthair’ with its genetic difference?
Driftwood
You have failed to understand the point which is simply a statement of the nature of the world. Britain rules part of Ireland only because it has the military force to impose its will.
It tried to hold all of Ireland by military force but failed.
Slug
If you could imagine a scenario where Britain was weakened severely by a military or natural calamity to the extent that it was no longer able to muster the force to hold the North then it is a no-brainer that Irish nationalism would finish the task of establishing an all-Ireland republic. I don’t think there is any question about that. The exact circumstances would evolve and the timeframe would depend but the result would be inevitable in my opinion.
I’m surprised that you are surprised. Is there any nationalist posting who thinks we would not? Why wouldn’t we?
I remember when the Berlin Wall came down some people (including the serving British PM) thought a united Germany need not happen. But the Germans did not hesitate.
When America left a partitioned Vietnam the inevitable outcome soon followed. Was anybody surprised? I don’t think so.
slug
It would be good for a laugh, the RAF would take 2 minutes to dismiss them
Funny they had 40 years and they never did manage to dismiss a bunch of ragedy ass guerillas in “their own country”.
Henry –
In support of your claim on p3 of this thread:
“if we [the Irish] had the military power we would expel the British forces”
you now argue:
“If you could imagine a scenario where Britain was weakened severely by a military or natural calamity to the extent that it was no longer able to muster the force to hold the North then it is a no-brainer that Irish nationalism would finish the task of establishing an all-Ireland republic. I don’t think there is any question about that.”
So basically you maintain the view that the Irish people, if they thought they could overpower the British, would be willing to militarily force NI out of the UK against the wishes of a majority in NI.
It’s interesting to me, as a fellow Irishman, that you actually think there is no question about that.
“It would be good for a laugh, the RAF would take 2 minutes to dismiss them. The Irish Defence Force (Republic of..) has about the same military presence as Togo.”
Revealing that! You’ve just disclosed a bit of your innate thinking!
Mighty British army likes to show who’s top dog, eh!
Your probably salivating at the thoughts Driftwood?
BTW, call the cat Winston!
“It would be good for a laugh, the RAF would take 2 minutes to dismiss them. The Irish Defence Force (Republic of..) has about the same military presence as Togo.
But we shouldn’t laugh, The Republic of Ireland ia a ‘sovereign nation’. As is Equatorial Guinea.
They should all be treated equally.”
Very witty. Why does it remind me of why Britain didn’t hold onto Hong Kong by force? If China had a population of 4 million rather than 1300 million I have no doubt they’d have used force…in the interests of democracy of course. Not that there was much democracy in British Hong Kong but that’a a different story.
Yes, as China sees it Britain is a ‘sovereign nation’ (or is it 3 or even 4 nations) in there with Togo, Equatorial Guinea and Ireland. Welcome to the club!
The cat is Prrrrrrrussian.
“I don’t believe we’re all that different – we both share identical DNA.”
Alas only identical twins share identical DNA and even then, only initially.
In fact most of our DNA is common with other species.
I, for example, as an Englishman, am genetically half a banana and proud of it.
Steve
I don’t think the FBI has managed to defeat the mafia in over 50 years.
Greagoir, the comment was not meant to be all that serious. also- The cats name was not my choice. I would have preferred Metternich.
The context of all my posts is that we are a bunch of humans inhabiting a certain geographical landmass. How we choose to identify ourselves is pretty much barstool stuff. If Guinness was a pound a pint in the Republic, I would seriously consider unity much more than any posters pov here.